Fediverse @lemmy.ml

2y ago

This still baffles me, but I guess it's good for federation?

Context: https://sh.itjust.works/comment/2181865

381 comments

Also lemmy.world is not the most stable instance and experiences a lot of downtime. My user experience got a lot better after I moved out of lemmy.world.
- It experiences a lot of downtime because the alt right kids who got defederated keep using 4chans ddos tool to bring it down...
  It's not going down from normal user load.
  
  If only people knew how hard the staff was working to improve things and keep it up.
  
  citation needed
- I've explicitly been using my beehaw.org account pretty much exclusively because of the constant DDOS attacks on lemmy.world.
  Kinda funny how their plan to seemingly kill Lemmy is just helping it stay decentralized by pushing people to other instances.
  
  do you think i'd have a chance at getting in if for my application i just say i want to get away from lemmygrad and hexbear?
  
  You can’t really kill a decentralized service without burning down the whole internet. Another way would be to offer a competing services, but that hasn’t killed e-mail yet.
- For the record I never wanted to create an account on lemmy.world, but I ultimately did so because other instances including lemmy.ml were not operational when a mass of users moved on from reddit so I just settled for this one.
  The fediverse needs to address this without making it the users problem, not my fault shit don’t work, I’m just here for memes and all the porn 😎
  Edit: Lemmy didn’t have to recreate reddits shit formatting either
  
  You joined way after me. You just didn't look around enough.

Hot take: .world and others banning/blocking /c/ is better for the fediverse and for piracy. It means less eyes on piracy discussions and incentivizes users to spread out to other instances instead of just all using .world.
- Fantastic take. Imagine a conglomerate of smaller instances that largely make no waves and allow 70% of the community to just see what they want. Dare to dream.
- It's a great take and I hope they do continue to ban/block more controversial topics so people spread out more.

i feel like blocking of instances leads to worse echo chambers than subreddits themselves. We gonna have bubbles of federation networks that don't federate with each other. E.g. lefties, righties, "dark web" illegal shit, kinky shit, and instances that federate with all of them will be blocked by other instances because "use my blacklist or get defederated". This is gonna lead to hell for users having to create fifty accounts for each bubble. Aint nobody got time for that.
i wish it remained a user's option to block/unblock content they don't/do want to see. Each instance could provide their "recommended" default list of enabled instances, and user can go and enable others, like how NSFW toggle works. Maybe group instances into categories with tags or something, like "porn", "memes", "tankies", "nazis", "warez", etc
- We're gonna need a Lemmy client that can log into multiple accounts at the same time and display a combined feed of allof those accounts...
  
  Liftoff has been doing that for A while
  
  Liftoff is fantastic for that
- The big issue with that. Is where the host instance is located.
  If Lennyworld is located somewhere piracy will get them shut down. Federatng a pirate instance is a bad idea.
  
  Hosting is the legal issue. Linking to illegal content that somebody else is hosting is much harder to tackle legally, which is why isohunt was around for so long despite being based in the US. IIRC they shut down not because they lost any lawsuits but because they just couldn't afford the legal battle.
- Most people will not put their time and energy into running an instance which is destined to become a fascist playground with policies like those. You might not like it but in this real world that we are all forced to live in, that is what those policies lead to.
- I think with the principles Lemmy was made under the fracturing of the community into blocs is basically inevitable. You'll have the original/developer/"tankie" bloc at lemmy.ml, the more mainstream/liberal bloc at lemmy.world, and all the smaller instances orbiting around and between them some connected to both and some connected to neither.
  To do something like you suggest would require a single, centralized instance that lists all the others and tags them to allow users to pick which ones to subscribe to - and if the Lemmy devs did that then we'd be right back to the problems inherent to
  .
- So long as major instances continue to rely on blacklists rather than whitelists, that won't be a problem for the hundreds of small instances.
- You can discuss and promote piracy, but lemmy.world is the biggest instance so hosting links up pirated content will get them shut down. The post is 100% right, just make multiple accounts. You want the illegal stuff distributed. What's great about Lemmy is you can still have other accounts on those networks.
- The primary purpose of the defederation mechanism is not to block content from readers, it's to prevent brigades. A big problem on Reddit is vote manipulation (not to mention shit stirrers showing up uninvited). On Reddit some mods would just ban everyone who ever posted in a subreddit (like T_D), defederation is essentially the same thing.
  
  It's for the person paying for the hosting and maintaining the server to decide what they want their server to do
  
  Either way you call it, it's someone else deciding for me

Holy fucking shit they're blocking piracy? What a bunch of losers. Get off the anti-corporate platform built on copyleft principles if you have a problem with piracy.
- The losers are commenting on this site as well.
  https://hexbear.net/post/317675
  Transphobia? That's cool with them. Treating food workers like shit? Also fine. But watch a copy of a movie? "Horrible theft". There are people dying over preventable causes due to patents that aren't even held by the creators. I hate liberals
  
  lmao of course the bootlicker clutches pearls over "trans ideology".
- I created an account today on lemm.ee because I thought defeterating from hexbear sucked, then there were others and today was the last straw, even though I don't pirate. I didn't leave reddit for more restrictive platform. Lemmy.world sucks balls.
- Eh? It's understandable. They shouldn't be forced to deal with any legal issues that come with it.
  You can just use another instance that fits your needs, isn't that the whole point of this decentralized model?
  
  There are no legal issues. You can fucking talk about piracy completely legally. This is a moral position being taken under the excuse of legality by liberals who run their server with a strict political leaning, as demonstrated by their mass banning of socialists and defederation from every left wing space.
- Yes, because it's illegal. If you're going to be the biggest host you're a bigger target which means you need to be more careful. What's good about the fediverse is that you have distributed instances so smaller ones can support things like piracy, and if a small one gets taken down there will be others in its place. The same game of whack a mole is what has allowed torrent tracker sites to exist. If there was one centralized torrent tracker site it would get shut down.
  What the post says is exactly right. You'd be an idiot to have one account for your normal usage and piracy usage. In your normal usage you'll inevitably leak personally identifiable information. Having multiple accounts and multiple instances is the exactly right thing to do to keep piracy alive.
  
  There is nothing illegal about talking about piracy. Get a grip. This is entirely about taking a moral position, because the server is run by liberals with a clear and obvious political position, as demonstrated by their mass banning of socialists.

Facilitating Piracy no matter how you put it is wrong and illegal, it is wrong and illegal to support people who do it.
Remember Netizen, when you're pirating Disney, you're downloading communism!
- "You wouldn't download a communism"
  A would download & 3D print both communism & Disney, then watch them fight
- Facilitating Piracy no matter how you put it is wrong and illegal, it is wrong and illegal to support people who do it.
  I love how some people assume that everyone agrees on the ethics of piracy

Lemmy.world is turning vanilla. They closed the shrooms community too!
- Welp, I guess that's it for me, I'm not looking to have my hand held while I access information. I can decide for myself what is and is not acceptable on my feed. Maybe .world is just feeling the crunch and they need to thin out the numbers? It's a shame either way.
  
  But that's why federation is great. If you don't like how one instance handles stuff you can move to any other instance that suits you or even host your own.
  
  They just don't have the money to pay the lawyers that you need if you want to host that kind of content without shutting the whole thing down to move it on occasion.
  
  Same this explains why I haven't seen any shrooms posts. If I wanted to be treated like a child I'd use Reddit
- What's the shrooms community?
  
  Not sure how to properly post it for everyone, but Shrooms@sh.itjust.works or !Shrooms@sh.itjust.works

Not sure why nobody in the comments is distinguishing between blocking a community on an instance (removing /c/piracy) and defederating instances (saying your users can't subscribe to otherinstance.com/c/piracy). They are very different things. We should be very skeptical of defederation.
Removing a community because it violates the rules of your instance is A-OK and every instance should do this. Anybody can run an instance, and anybody can set their own rules, that's the whole idea of federation.
De-federating other instances because you find their content objectionable is less ok. Lemmy is like e-mail. Everybody registers at gmail or office365 or myfavoriteemail.com. Every email host runs their own servers, but they all talk to each other through an open protocol. You would be pissed to find out that gmail just suddenly decided to stop accepting mail from someothermailprovider.com because a bunch of their users are pirates or tankies. Or blocked your favourite email newsletter from reaching your inbox because it had inflammatory political content.
Allowing your users to receive e-mail, or content from subcommunities on other lemmy instances is not a legal risk like hosting the content yourself is (IANAL etc). Same way Gmail is not liable if somebody on some other e-mail server does something illegal by emailing a gmail user. That's why you can register at torrentwebsite.com and get a user confirmation email successfully delivered to your inbox. Gmail is federated with all other e-mail services without needing to endorse them or accept legal liability for them.
Lemmy's strength, value, and future comes from being the largest federated space for link-sharing and other forms of communication.
De-federation is bad.
- defederation is good for nazi and CSAM instances. no one should touch either with a 10ft pole. there's absolutely no reason to give them a larger platform.
- While I agree with you, I'd really love the possibility of block whole instances, just for me. I don't want my instance from defederating from much, but I'd like for example to block all the porn without having to find myself some christian lemmy instance to move to lol
  
  You would be free to do that, just as you can make filters in gmail. But the difference is who gets to make that decision.
- Nah I gotta disagree on this one. I specifically joined this instance as a welcoming space. I'm glad we're defederated from the tankie and far right instances. I want none of that here. You can feel differently for the "main" instances or whatever you want to call them, but for me, defederation is amazing.
- Very good point
- If an instance is merely blocked, does that mean all content produced by that instance, or by a Lemmy.World user using that instance, is strictly not stored on Lemmy.World servers?
  Otherwise there might still be liability. Also, in the US you don't even have to do anything illegal to be the target of a lawsuit—distancing from piracy is a practical defense against the cost of legal proceedings, even if it's technically legal.
- If someone's email domain is @ihateminorities.com, I'd say that's pretty fair grounds for blocking it.
  There are some instances that actively promote hateful or extremist content, and exist for the purpose of hosting it. There are others that do not actively support that content but do allow it, anywhere, making blocking one community not enough. Defederation is an important tool and should be used wisely.

I think lemmy.world is about to be rudely made aware of how many pirates were on their site.
- They're not making any money from this anyway
- I feel like I missed something, what happened?
  
  The lemmy.world admins blocked a bunch of piracy communities from federating with their instance seemingly out of nowhere: no legal threats, no DMCA notices, no apparent consequences if they don't.

Where is the piracy? (Asking for a friend.)

Welcome fellow pirate!

Lemmy.world blocked the dbzer0 instance? I guess it's time to switch then...
- They didn't block the whole instance, just the specific piracy community.
  
  Lol, that's fine by me, coz I'm here living in dbzer0, arrr!
- Dude, just make multiple accounts. Don't use one account for everything or you'll associate personally identifiable information with your piracy account.

The only thing that makes data useful to humanity is the fact that it can be copied - not copying data is unethical.
- Salut à toi dear disciple of the Kopimist church
  
  Hmmm... most interesting. Thanks!

Anyone know of a good/current breakdown of the available instances? I landed on LW during the reddit exodus, and so far I've been happy here - haven't felt the itch to relapse back to reddit or the need to find a new home on the fed... even this piracy thing isn't a deal breaker for me personally since I don't really engage in that content anyway - but on principle I dislike that it's been blocked.
Despite all that, I wouldn't mind poking my head around just to see what's up, and maybe find my nice little niche, but I don't know the best way to actually go about navigating the fed.
- Not exactly what you asked for but since you seem to care about it, you can use https://fba.ryona.agency/ to see what instances are blocked by what instances and vice versa. Here are the instances LW blocks for example.
- https://lemmy.fediverse.observer/list
  
  Good resource for metrics! I'd really love some more qualitative information though - like by metrics alone, exploding.heads looks pretty decent; but I know just from hanging around here for the past month or so that it's a hive of neonazis and definitely NOT somewhere I'd want to spend any time. Also info like which instances block / are blocked by the one in question; compatibility with mobile apps or quality of mobile website... shit like that. Would have been awesome to have a guide like that when I joined up as a brand-newbie; but even after having my feet in the water for a bit, I'm kinda lost on where to go from here.
- I'm trying to get Lemmings.world more popular, so feel free to join! It's well maintained, planned to be running long-term and each defederation is carefully considered. So far only instances that pretty much exist to harass other people have been blocked. Until some lawyer officially contacts me about removing piracy, I don't plan on doing so.
  
  Defederation because of harassment seems excessive, surely one can just mute a user? Not sure if I'd be comfortable with your defedation policy. It's one thing to defederate from definitely-illegal-content like CSAM, it's another thing to defederate because feelings were hurt.
- I like kbin for the sorting algorithm and the website UI, but mostly use lw because of jerboa

I have created my own instance. With blackjack! And hookers, err, NSFW.
I found a cheap VPS and the easy_deploy script from git, that's how it started. And for 10 €/month I'll keep it going with a user count of 1.
- Kinda expensive vps for a single person instance, is it not?
  
  Maybe, but I'm enjoying it.
- is that considered best practice ?
  i'm not sure how any of this is supposed to work or if as a user i am supposed to care.
  i've budgeted next month to pay the maintainer of the thingy that i am thingy-ing and hopefully on a monthly basis. but is the end game for users to run their own instances ?
  
  It's the same as hosting your own email server. Yes it's "best practice" to host your own, but there's updates, bug workarounds, certificates, etc etc that makes it easier to use someone else's server. In the end it's a personal choice.
  
  The end game is to either run your own instance, or find an instance that is run by an admin with the same mindset as you might have.
  
  If you don't mind me asking: how much are you paying per month?
- I would do it too if there is a way to monetize it just to pay the VPS costs.

Uh…well I know what I’m about to do then. If I wanted some cunt to have unrestricted control over the content I see I would have stayed with Reddit and that pigboy spez.

Oh do please tell me about this "piracy" you speak of. Pirates are my people, I sailed the seas with them back in 1998 and my 28 kilobaud modem. Unfortunately I have lost sight of them in the private tracker wars.
- I've never bothered with private trackers, what benefits do they actually provide?
  
  Speed, quality, safety, and seed status are the main benefits IMO. The downsides are you have to keep a good ratio or at least not hit and run.
  Back when I used public sites I remember most torrents being slow, in private sites many people use a seed box so even if there are only a couple seeds it's usually still blazing fast. Since uploaders in private sites have some reputation to upkeep, their releases will usually be quality. I also feel completely safe downloading something with only a couple seeds on private sites, but on public sites I worry if I'm downloading a virus if there are no comments and very few seeds.
  The private sites are also usually not big enough for anyone to care about, so the chances of them being taken down or targeted are minimal.
  I have also not gotten one ISP warning since moving over to private sites years ago, and that's even with not using a VPN
  
  They say they provide curation of content, keep out lawyers and provide an incentive to seed.
  In practice none of these are provided.
  What they really are, are entities who sell access to copyright infringement material.
  They discourage network effect free sharing. They discourage posting content with investors rules and they impede seeding by creating a zero sum economy where nobody wants to download anything unless they really have to because you won't be able too seed your ratio back to 1 as everybody tries to seed and nobody disappears.
  It leads to the ridiculous practice of downloading whatever gets posted on the RSS feed, just so you can seed it to other people who blind download stuff just to seed it. Basically a pump and dump scheme where someone always end up holding the bag.
  All this to motivate people to buy their ratio back. I've seen one recent case they were charging 20$ to free leech 80gb.
  In other words private trackers are shit, kill private trackers with DHT
  
  None, just use a VPN and thepiratebay/nyaa/whatever else and stop being a baby
  
  I was invited to a private tracker by a friend who swore by them as having way more stability and more people seeding. Turns out, even after interviewing, I was never able to connect to a single torrent. Went back to public and never looked back.

Any Lemmy instance list which shows communities that have been defed by each instances? Should help new users make better choices.
- https://fba.ryona.agency/
- feedit.de offers a list of instances they have defederated.
  
  Every instance shows that list
- They all do, just add /instances after the url
  
  That gives you who they block, but unfortunately not who they are blocked by.

I've begun blocking their communities in my accounts and I plan to defederate from them when i get home. Fuck em. Place is infested with exploding heads anyway.
- Who are exploding heads? I.e. what about people from that instance?
  
  Hitlerite instance
- When I looked at that site to see what everyone is talking about, it looked dead with most posts having no comments. Am I missing something? Doesn't really seem like a threat to Lemmy.

Context https://sh.itjust.works/comment/2181865

Ia there a list somewhere of insurances that do NOT blck piracy?
Also just a quick yes or no question: does lemmy.ml block piracy?
- I guess the only instance guaranteed to not block piracy is the one at which the community itself is hosted
- My instance (https://lemmings.world) doesn't block piracy (at least until I receive some letter from lawyers telling me to fuck off and delete it).
  
  Defederation because of harassment seems excessive, surely one can just mute a user? Not sure if I'd be comfortable with your defedation policy. It's one thing to defederate from definitely-illegal-content like CSAM, it's another thing to defederate because feelings were hurt.

We just doubled our numbers somehow! Look at all these new users joining the fediverse 😅

I know that is what broke the camels back for me, not that I personally partake in piracy but, it concerns me because if that is being done, what else could be being done. I understand the legal ramifications of the storage of it but, idk it just put a bad taste in my mouth, it was the first instance of censorship that didn't make full sense and was made due to a random account that was downvoted to oblivion, was super concerning. I still have an account on it but, it made me aware I needed more variety

Honest question, is there an app or frontpage that would allow to mix instances that are not federated? Unless an instance has access to everything, having two accounts will show a lot of duplicated contentent (for example, in "all" it will show technology@lemmy.world in likely all instances)
- It would be simpler just to pick an instance that to date refuses to defederate from anyone. I use SDF, and I picked it in part for that reason.
  I also don't think they're going anywhere, since SDF has been around continuously since the 80s (literally started as an anime BBS) and still runs a lot of services that would seem unusual to care about these days (including having a gopher server), so I figure their Lemmy, Mastodon, Pixelfed, Matrix, etc instances aren't going anywhere.
  
  It would but then that bath water comes with the baby.
  I can get people talking about piracy but it comes with Russian propaganda, Hitler love, fat shaming and homophobia.
  It would be kind of cool to have a client where your communities come from specific instances where you want them. If an instance goes down have it pick a backup instance and pull the community from there. Of course it would require separate accounts in separate communities with separate subs on each instance, making each user weigh many times there normal cost for lemmy operation.
  There's always self-hosting, but it has its own discovery pitfalls. When you'd like a pie hole and public rated block lists where you can tell it what you do and don't want to see
  
  SDF
  are they still federated with beehaw?
- Not that I've seen, at least not cleanly. It's the dream I'm looking for.

I joined over there because, funnily enough, that was on of the few instances not blocked by my work. 🤷
- Lemmy is big enough to get blocked now?
  
  My forum was blocked at my work, it had roughly 20 active users.

As an alternative to lemmy.world I would like to suggest my own instance endlesstalk.org.
I have no plans to deferate or ban anything releated to piracy. Only thing that might change my mind would probably be a company taking legal action against me.
I also strive to have as little downtime as possible and keep everything running smoothly.
- only time would prove that ur instance would be reliable.
  also ur instance won't be an exception: when corps deem that u hav a high enough usercount instance that is making piracy content accessible among users, they wouldn't hesitate to threat u legally, so federation with pirate instances shouldn't be a selling point, unless u have an unlimited stock of money to hire a lawyering firm.. still, i would gladly vouch for ur instance. We Lemmy as a whole can't do much against corp action: they have the financial means to afford legal action, or run unlimited ddos attacks for days, bringing Lemmy basically to its knees, we need to learn how to tread through this, instead of acting like tough guys.
  Also hope more people come out and advertize their instance and vowing that they u would maintain it as humanly possible, cause i am running out of recommendations honestly
- If your offering boils down to "the same that lemmy.world is offering" (other than with potentially better uptime lol,) then it's not that great an offering as you make it to be.
  
  Lemmy.world does a great job(with a little downtime) and it is the same software we are hosting, so I can only see a couple of ways to make a better "offering"
  Better uptime as you mentioned
  Different deferation/moderation policy.
  Visual customizations(eg. different theme)
  I try to provide a better uptime and a different deferation/moderation policy. I don't have the skills to make visual customizations, but I have added multiple frontends(like lemmy.world).
  I'm open to suggestions/ideas if there is anything else that could be done to improve the "offering".

Is there an official blocked communities list and defederated list for each instance? Also can you have the same username on a different instance? I fear we are going to lose people who don't really care that much about the federation stuff and just want to use Lemmy like reddit. Although I guess reddit is similar in that they decide what communities are allowed as well...
- Yes you can have the same username on different instances, similar to how email addresses work
  Don't think there's an easy way to see blocked communities, but it's easy to see blocked instances with the instances link at the bottom of the page
- Yes, "Instances" at the very bottom of the pages

Sounds pretty reasonable to me if the loser dweebs at lemmy.world want to ban the piracy comms. lol, even
allows piracy subs.
- Since the hexbear federation I've seen that little stormfront logo a lot, illuminate me, what's that?
  
  An alt-right neonazi forum/organization/etc. Putting it to reddit context is for two reasons. First, because we're all pissed at reddit's recent behavior. But second because Spez has been accused (with evidence) of being sorta Elon-like in his courting of the alt-right, and possibly having extreme right leanings himself.
  
  Stromfront is a literal white supremacist neo-Nazi forum. As in the logo on their website has "White Pride World Wide" written around a Celtic cross. If you've ever seen The Boys, that site is the reason the character Stormfront is named that, and she's positively nice compared to some of what goes on in that forum.
  The whole point is to liken Reddit to Stormfront, and it's connected to hexbear because ChapoTrapHouse is on hexbear and ChapoTrapHouse is more or less the only lefty subreddit to ever be punished under rules against brigading, calls for violence, etc. They were quarantined and later banned. So since Reddit banned an explicitly lefty sub that one time, that makes Reddit akin to a white supremacist hate forum.

Lemmy.world banned piracy so a lot of people will stop using lemmy.world, splitting the load

Just made an alt account on lemm.ee
- Same here. Not because I'm a pirate, but because lemmy.world has been trigger happy with blocking instances /communities. I did not leave reddit to be a part of even bigger shit show. So here's hoping the fediverse works out.
  
  It will be interesting to see how it shakes out. I could see World being a safe place to create big mainstream communities, and maybe remain a good starting point for people joining the fediverse.

Sucks for us interested in it but It's completely understandable. Making an account on another instance and transferring your data takes no time at all, which is exactly what I did.
- I have accounts on multiple instances, but what does transferring your data entail when you say that?
  
  Transferring the communities you subscribed or blocked to your new account. I used lasim, just downloaded the info from my old account and uploaded it to my new one. Only took a few seconds to do.

Some are doing one step more and registering on the instances hosting the piracy communities.
- I think this is not the worst idea

yep, just signed up on a different instance 🙂
- Also found another niche instance to post from myself

What is this meme alluding to? can i get a tldr?
- .world defederated piracy communities
- Search for "contex t" on this page (mispelled on purpose so that is doesn't come up when other people will look for it
  
  The least chaotic misspelling ever

That's me!
- Hey, me, too!

Hit me with some .world alternatives. I was on lemm.ee but they haven't defederated from hexbear and liftoff won't let me block entire instances yet.
- Tap instances at the bottom of the page.

Just signed up for starters.website, they still have beehaw which is cool
- Most of the instances that are not LW and sh.itjust.works have actually
  
  What is beehaw?

Oh do please tell me about this "piracy" you speak of. Pirates are my people, I sailed the seas with them back in 1998 and my 28 kilobaud modem. Unfortunately I have lost sight of them in the private tracker wars.

They’re pearl clutching legalists this was inevitable, really

Ayyyyy

I know, right? How dare they stop us from stealing movies and computer games!
100% understand why Lemmy World did this. Piracy opens the floodgates for legal trouble and is largely the reason why the piracy community over on Reddit is probably one of the most sanitized, locked-down and censored parts of the site.
Would you want a non-profit being sued to oblivion because somebody posted torrent links?
- The piracy community already bans direct piracy links. The rules aren't that much different from the subreddit, so there's
  This whole debacle with lemmy.world is mainly from the admins making a dumb decision.
  I know, right? How dare they stop us from stealing movies and computer games!
  Oh no, the scummy AAA punishers are going to make marginally less profit this quarter! Won't someone please think of the corporations!?
- i hate seeing this downvoted. people need to grow a brain.

Good. Piracy is illegal and immoral.
- But I want to make sleazy companies suffer...
  
  Become a film director or major video game developer and have your content ruthlessly stolen then.
- Copyright infringement is absolutely the moral thing to do in quite a lot of cases. For example, for the preservation of cultural works. Corporations aren't exactly spending their money on proper archives and the people to curate them. Quite the opposite! For example, if some or all of the lawsuits against sites like archive.org are successful then the result could be a mass erasure of cultural works on the scale of the burning of the Library of Alexandria.
  
  But archiving has nothing to do with copyright.
- Sorry can't hear you too busy downloading communism
- oh no, billionaire profits. anyway,,
- 💬
- Me playing a small violin very emotionally at the thought that a media mogul won't be able to afford his 750th super yacht because of piracy 😢
- It's like stealing a car.
  
  You wouldn't download a car.
  
  Exactly. Illegal and immoral. You get a cookie.
- Idk about immoral lol debatable for sure
  
  Then debate it.

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