3w ago

Berlin: proposal to remove 30 km/h zones because air quality improved, thanks to 30 km/h zones

www.rbb24.de

Tempo 30 steht auf Dutzenden Hauptstraßen wieder zur Debatte

The absurdity of the proposal is already in the title, and shows how motonormativity is spread all over the world.

Berlin has a very good public transit system, and a few 30 km/h zones cannot be that bad.

I would love to hear opinions from someone who lives there!

crossposted from: https://mastodon.uno/users/rivoluzioneurbanamobilita/statuses/114732266280428499

Not The Onion @lemmy.world

lgsp@feddit.it @feddit.it

3w ago

Sunday question: What do you say about Berlin abolishing the 30 km/h speed limit because the air has improved thanks to the 30 km/h speed limit?

www.rbb24.de /politik/beitrag/2025/06/senatsverwaltung-verkehr-berlin-tempo-30.htm

78 comments

Conservatives won the last election in Berlin in case you were wondering.
- They didn't win really. There was a coalition of the "Social Democrats", Greens and Left. Because the "Social Democrats" are utterly incompetent, the state election had to be repeated because they fucked up the election process.
  In the repeated election the Greens and Left had about the same votes and the "Social Democrats" lost hard. Still the coalition maintained a majority and could have continued. Instead the "Social Democrats" betrayed the coalition, claimed the election was a "clear signal against it" and became the smaller partner to the nationalist Berlin CDU, who campaigned on the notion that your surname shows whether you are a "real" German or merely a German citizen.
  It is the classical liberals backstabbing progressives to embrace right/far-right politics move.
  Now this current government has set out to destroy every achievement of the old government while ignoring the grave issues with housing, infrastructure, social security, climate mitigation...
  Now of course after two years of that, the current government is deeply unpopular, but such is the cycle of Berlin. Have a reasonable government manage somewhat, then people elect the reactionaries, believing they would "fix" things only to fuck everything up more and have the progressive government after try to pull the cart out of the ~~dirt~~ sinkhole.
  
  such is the cycle of ~~Berlin~~ every democracy ever
  FTFY
- So lets go ahead and conserve destructive policies.
- No surprises here.

Yep sounds absurd. As I unterstand it the problem is that you need a reason for 30 km/h zones. The reason was the air quality which is now better so there is no reason anymore. Some zones may be kept because the streets are used by school kids.
I think this is still absurd and good 30 km/h zones with synced traffic lights can yield a good traffic flow.
- The fact that they have improved air quality is not sufficient reason? Do they think air quality is like painting a house, that it only has to be done every couple of years?
  
  I can't speak to Germany specifically, but a lot of people don't think very much at all. They feel things, and make up words to justify their feelings. (We all do this to some extent, but for some people it seems like that's the only process running)
  
  Welcome to Germany, land of the pedantry-industrial complex.
  
  They have a new conservative government in Berlin which wants to end "the war against cars" and rolls every progress back. They also remove bike lanes "because they cost parking spaces"
  It doesn't make sense, they are conservatives after all
  
  I am totaly with you on that. That fact that those zones did improve the air quality would be a reason for me to keep them.
  
  It's Germany, if air quality is not in the pre-approved list of reasons, then it's not acceptable.
  But don't worry, once they repair the fax machine they can start processing the request to update the list. In about 7 years it'll be done. Well unless the administration is voted out then the new one might forget about it.
  
  If you improve it too much, the lungs of the people will become weak.
- The air is better, but if we keep not ruining it, it will be too good.
  Then the lungs of our children will grow weak.
  
  The children will not be ready for the mines then.
  
  You dont get it, bad air quality creates strong lungs, strong lungs creates good air quality, good air quality creates weak lungs, weak lungs create bad air quality. /s
  
  You really don't think posting this joke once is enough?
- That is the reason they used to create them, but municipalities do have the right to create 30km/h zones in any residential area they choose, as long as it is not a major road.

Let's bring back CFCs. The ozone layer has recovered, so it's fine.
- It hasnt it will take another 60 years to fully recover
  
  ozone recovers
  but the planet is now too warm to live
  
  You know who won't be around to give a shit when it does...?
- Don't give them ideas, they already want to bring back asbestos.

Can't wait for these useless assholes to be voted out next year
- Good luck with that...
  
  Current polls at least suggest it's possible.

Shit, I laughed out loud here. This is some The Onion shit
- If the Onion is not out of business yet, it will be soon. Reality is more ridiculous than what they can come up with...

motonormativity
I like the new slur!
- I had to read that a few times to understand it :)
  
  I'm lost... Can you ELI5?

My small town in the UK was going to be a pilot for a blanket 20mph speed limit.
This was interpreted by the local Insane People Facebook group as being woke, a war on motorists, a New World Order 15 Minute Cities scheme and a Chinese style program to prevent people going anywhere.
They then voted in a Reform Party local council, who promptly delivered on their promises to cut waste and loss DOGE style, by closing a local community centre...
Now the Insane People Facebook page is demanding to know why Labour has closed it. 🤡
The mad thing is, it's practically impossible to drive at more than 20mph anyway due to all the potholes. We're apparently twinned with the surface of the moon.
- That's something I noticed in the last two weeks that I spent in the UK. You simply cannot reach the speed limit. If you actually drive through a normal UK city at the given speed limits, you'll lose your dentures or your teeth, and/or your car.
  I was sent by my GPS on a "road" that was about as wide as my car. Left and right it was greens, more than a mans height, and the "road" zig-zagged through nowhere. You had to drive at walking speed around the corners, as there was traffic in both directions. Official speed limit: 50mph / 80km/h
  
  Yeah, plenty of those about. Have fun getting past that caravan, only to find a tractor in front of it, or one of the locals in a Range Rover two inches from your back bumper who is annoyed that you're not flying around a blind bend at the speed limit.
  I like the 60mph roads with the nice dry stone walls alongside. A guy I work with hit one a few winters back. It bit into his bumper and spun him like a top. Those things were built to last.
  
  There's a reason it is like that in most of the world, and it is rather stupid. Speed limits are calculated, not mandated.
  Transit authorities record the average speed of drivers in an unmarked stretch of road. Then the speed limit is that average plus some number chosen by local authorities, rounded up. Then the government go ahead and say, "if it is not measured, it is 50". And you end up with ridiculous numbers all over the place.
  That's why people say that to limit speed you have to build for the speed desired. Ordering a speed limits lower than the one people do spontaneously, without changing road geometry, doesn't reduce the overall speed of traffic. It just increases the number of infractions, a common police funding strategy.
  The most successful speed limit projects include infrastructure budgets to change the roads.
  
  Oh yeah, a lot of our country roads are like that. Single lane, tall hedges both sides. Usually the limit is 60mph, but most people drive slower. I do 30 or 40mph and just be ready to brake for oncoming traffic.

This could be a great example of the "mental fenze" cognitive model. We remove things without understanding why were there in the first place
- Seriously.
  Case in point, I had a student once who had a note on file to watch for seizures. Me and other teachers/staff were puzzled as this student didn’t have this worry of seizures the years before — turns out the children’s home they were housed at took them OFF the anti-seizure medication they were on, noting that the student didn’t need the medicine anymore as they were not showing signs of seizures. WTF?!
  Sorry to spew political rhetoric like vomit everywhere, but this reminds me of the same self-inflicted idiocy of trump and his cultists.
  
  To be honest, anti-seizure medication has significant side effects, maybe they were hoping the seizures were gone so they could stop needing the medication

CDU never changes with their stupidity

Was in Berlin last week and it was like an island of transit infrastructure in the sea of delayed S-Bahn and long/mid distance travel that is Germany. S-Bahn, Trams, Busses, U-Bahn, and it's all frequent and not undersized!
- This. It devinetively took some time to adjust to just going to the next station waiting a few minutes and then driving where you want to. Driving a car in Berlin is borderline stupidity. The public transit is literally insane.

Die Freiluftirrenanstalt Berlin

Chesterton's ~~Fence~~ Speed Limited Zone
https://fs.blog/chestertons-fence/

I don't really understand this. Air quality is not affected if it's electric cars. If it's about ICE cars - then, in general, efficiency goes up till ~90km/h.
I feel like the limit was lowered for a fake reason and is now suggested to be brought back up for a bad one.
- The evidence of studies says that you are wrong.
  Here are some key points from a study summary that was made for London: 20mph zones do not appear to worsen air quality and they dramatically reduce road danger. They also support a shift to walking and cycling, generate less traffic noise and reduce community severance. In 20mph zones vehicles move more smoothly with fewer accelerations and decelerations. This driving style produces fewer particulate emissions.
  https://content.tfl.gov.uk/speed-emissions-and-health.pdf
  
  Fair enough on the part in bold.
  As someone who lives in London, I can say it does come with a caveat - traffic system here are set up by chimpanzees. It makes no sense, none of the three groups - pedestrians, cyclists or drivers - get prioritised. None of the lights are interconnected, so all they bring is annoyance for everyone. I'm an occasional pedestrian, cycling commuter and a (mostly) weekend driver.
  TLDR - no wonder the study found that.
- Tire and brake particulate is a real air quality impact that is either worse with EVs (for tire particulate because they are heavier) or mitigated, but still present for EVs (for brake particulate because regenerative braking reduces but does not eliminate the use of physical brake pads). For ICE cars (which are still the dominant form of car when looking at what's on the road today), efficiency might go up in terms of fuel consumed per mile at a steady speed of 90 kph, but urban driving involves a lot of stopping and going, and reducing the speed limit reduces the amount and intensity of acceleration being done, which is where emissions are going to be worst. Also, the existence of 30 kph zones encourages alternatives to driving, whether that is low-no emission modes like walking, biking, or transit, or moving car trips away from the 30 kph zones to other areas (there's a potential negative externality to the latter, but if done well, this can move car airborne emissions away from where a lot of people live and play and towards corridors and areas that are designed with uses that are more tolerant to poor outdoor air quality (e.g.: industrial parks, generally lower density areas, etc.)). That's not to mention road vehicle noise pollution (sometimes considered part of air pollution, but most times not) and safety benefits that come alongside the air quality benefits discussed in this article from having fewer and slower cars
- in general, efficiency goes up till ~90km/h.
  Are you talking about fuel efficiency or total emission though? The efficiency might go up but the emission might still go up, it might be less emission per km/h but maybe not per km.
  
  It's a direct correlation. Emissions come from fuel burnt. Less fuel - lower emissions.
- Lower speeds reduce road danger
  Are extra casualties and reduced freedom for people who aren't driving worth the few minutes saved for a minority of people?
  
  You're arguing something else.
  
  .
- In Berlin, only 3% of all registered cars are pure electric cars (numbers from 2024).
  Speeds of 30 km/h lower the emissions of nitrogen oxide from cars with combustion engines. This happens because of significant reduction of pollutant-laden acceleration processes.
  The reduction of emissions from such a speed limit is based on more uniform traffic flows.
- Slow speeds make public transit a little more attractive to people on a time budget.
  
  This is not necessarily the case - it has been shown that slower car speeds in cities leads to better traffic flows and thus can lead to more efficiency of car travel, less traffic jams. So everyone driving slower can lead to more reliability and less average travel duration of cars.

78 comments