2mo ago

To Stop Losing the Culture Wars, Learn From Gay Marriage

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To stop Losing the Culture Wars
The only winning move is not to play
No war but class war
- Surely the class war includes protecting marginalised groups of people
  
  The poor are one of those marginalized groups. Democrats have already abandoned them, and are now saying that they need to abandon other marginalized groups and then focus on class.
  Of course, they'll get as far as abandoning marginalized groups and forget the rest.
- "wars", or really just disputes in general I guess since culture war is metaphorical, don't really work that way. It only takes one side to start one, and then the other side must either resist them or cede what the other wants, there's no option to just opt out of them without mutual desire to do so, and if someone has started one against you that desire obviously isn't there.
  The issues considered "culture war" aren't inconsequential, they affect the lives of real people in material ways. Thus, trying to dismiss them as a distraction just means accepting harm to some people. If one wants a decent society, it is necessary to win both.
- Do you mean that we should simply surrender to the right and let them oppress marginalized groups?
  War has been declared, and we can't just plug our ears and pretend it's not happening.
  
  In a word, yes.
  MLK's top lieutenant was gay. King never spoke out publicly about gay rights because he knew it would be a giant distraction.
  
  Disgusting take.
  
  Show me a time MLK spoke out about gay rights and I'll delete.
  He was a general fighting a war; he knew there were some battles that couldn't be won.
  
  I don’t know anything about that and I’m willing to accept it is true for the sake of discussion. That’s not what I found disgusting.
  
  Well, whatever you do, don't tell me what the problem is, because then it might get fixed.
  
  You’re fine with the oppression of people that aren’t you. Ends justify the means mentality.
  
  By that logic, every abolitionist who didn't pick up a gun in 1820 and start killing slave owners was fine with slavery.
  By that logic, every doctor who can't cure every patient is a murderer.
  There are things that are possible and things that aren't.
  Frederick Douglas worked for Lincoln in 1860, even though there was an abolitionist candidate. Douglas looked at the situation dispassionately and decided that it was better to support the moderate Lincoln, who did not promise to end slavery.
  Also, the gay man I mentioned never called King out, because that guy knew you have to pick your battles.
  
  Yeah man they knew to pick their battles in a time where black people were a legally distinct second class. They didn't bring gay issues into it because that wasnt the fight. Black gay men in the 60s were more worried about the fact it was illegal for them to sit at a counter as black people than their individual persecution for being gay. You have no excuse to not care about the persecution of individuals for being gay. Gtfo. This is the fight now, so shut the fuck up.
  All your examples are people putting their personal convictions aside for the ultimate good, which you are not doing. People in 1820 who didn't pick up guns WERE okay with slavery.
  You're doing the exact opposite of that guy, because you're saying stop fighting for the rights of your own people because my personal feelings about it are more important, you absolute nonce. Way to completely distort and misunderstand your own point.
  
  Way to completely distort and misunderstand your own point.
  That is an internet classic.
  
  You are correct that there is very little that MLK had to say about gay rights, however that does not mean that you can take that absence of evidence and ascribe whatever meaning you want to it.
  When did MLK state that was his reason for staying silent on gay rights?
  
  If you nothing about the history of the fight for LGBTQIA+ rights, a good place to start is "Before Stonewall."
  https://youtu.be/SLwE45vd80A
  
  You're deflecting. When did MLK state that was his reason for remaining silent?
  
  Why do his reasons matter?
  He decided that LGBTQIA+ wasn't a priority. Can you prove otherwise?
  
  His reasons matter because you claim to know his reasons:
  "King never spoke out publicly about gay rights because he knew it would be a giant distraction."
  He was largely silent on LGBTQIA+ matters and so his reasons are unknowable. You cannot take the lack of evidence and ascribe whatever meaning you would like to it. Double so for proving the negative using that lack of evidence.
  
  Have you ever actually spoken to anyone who was alive before the year 2000 AD?
  You can actually make reasonable inferences based on what we know of the time.
  By your logic, we couldn't know why FDR didn't draft women into the military or why Lincoln didn't have a Native Vice President.
- That isn't not playing it's just making it bigger to include the broader spectrum
- Tell me you didn’t even read the lede that directly ties it into the class war without telling me
- This is why I posted this basically.
  I am wondering can a culture war even be won? Aren't we allowing the conservatives to define the game to such extend that makes winning impossible?
  And additionally are these wars even separate or one and the same but viewed through different lenses?
  What do you think, oh wise people of the internet?
- You want to win a war? Learn from what the enemy is doing.
  
  Also stop underestimating them.

57 comments