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Qualms with investing as an anarchist

Apologies if this post doesn’t fit well here, this has a personal element but is ultimately a moral and political discussion.

Personal context:

I’ve lived with no/low income as a disabled person my whole adult life with no end in sight. I try to follow best personal finance practices to try and ensure my survival as I can’t simply look to make more money. As I understand it, the advice I’ve read would be to begin investing (commonly in equity ETFs) once you have saved enough of an emergency fund and are ready to put away assets for the long-term. Due to a unique situation, I might manage to save enough money to begin investing before I go back to living paycheck to paycheck.

Concerns:

A) Is it unethical? On one hand, I’d be investing into truly evil companies. On the other, there’s no ethical survival under captialism and my minuscule investment won’t make or break a megacorps’ ability to do evil shit. Taking a silent stand won’t have an impact and I may just be hurting my own personal finances in the process. In turn, that ironically may make it harder for me to safely save and spend money on things like community organizing.

B) Isn’t it contradictory and unsafe? Investing in equities means I'd be betting on continued “growth” for decades to come. This is the system I’d be working to dismantle and investing in it would be like I’m betting against myself. Considering the impending climate crisis and foreseeable global instability, investing in equities feels like more of a gamble and less of a sound financial decision, but I’m not sure what that means for how I should manage my finances.

24 comments
  • A) I can't answer that question, but just so everyone's clear: the money you invest in megacorps doesn't go to megacorps. It goes to other shareholders that owned shares of the megacorps and a small percentage would go to the trading platform and the capital market itself. If you're investing in ETFs, the company that manages the fund will likely get a small management cut too. Either way, it mostly goes to people seeking to lower or eliminate their stake on the companies you invest in. It's more like a horse racing thing: You bet on a horse, but the horse doesn't get your money.

    B) Yes, all investments are gambles, to an extent. The only difference is the different levels of risk and reward. And in finances, betting a certain amount against what you hope for if called "hedging". It basically means "I want X to happen, but if Y happens, I want my ass covered too." This concept may be useful to you.

    Personally, many consider me an anarchist because I don't believe in the legitimacy of any power that anyone holds against anyone else whatsoever (except my mom's), but I'm also a pragmatist. The world will follow its course and we can only do so much. We can hold our beliefs and make the marginally small pushes we can afford to make towards a world we believe is better, but we also must survive and ensure our own stability given the current state of the world as is. That means adapting to current reality.

    Now, be warned. If your investments do really well and you find yourself swimming with money in the future, there comes a point where money becomes poison. The way I see it there are only 3 amounts of money: Not enough, comfortable enough and too much.

    Good for you for making ends meet. Allow yourself to feel proud of your accomplishment. Surviving in this economy is no easy thing.

    Source: I'm a financial consultant that holds virtually no assets.

    Edit: Horse racing for clarity and typo.

  • A) As the previous commenter said, if you buy ETF shares from someone who is selling them, you are not financially supporting the corporation. Only buying their IPO would do that. These corporations will succeed or fail, do evil shit or do not-so-evil shit, based on supply and demand (and subsidies, and lobbying...), not based on whether you personally own shares in them.

    B) You can't predict the future. Common sense says that equities' historical growth cannot continue forever. It's up to you to decide whether the risk of equity investing makes sense for your personal situation and investment time horizon. Diversifying your investments across asset classes (equities, bonds, precious metals, CDs, fruit trees, real estate...) is probably the most assured way to reduce volatility, and it may or may not result in higher risk-adjusted returns, but this probably won't translate to higher gross returns compared to investing in equities alone (unless the stock market crashes while you are still invested and never recovers).

    Probably the strongest case for investing in equities would be: If you expect the next stock market crash to be accompanied by the end of the monetary system as we know it, then any cash that you currently have lying around will become worthless at that point whether you invest it in equities or not. (So you might as well invest it and make some money while you can.)

    Probably the strongest case for NOT investing in equities would be the facts that the growth in equities cannot continue indefinitely and that investing any extra money in tangible assets (e.g. land to grow your own food, solar panels and batteries, or other infrastructure that contributes to your independence from the system while reducing your ongoing expenses) is of real benefit to you regardless of what the stock market does.

    Source: I grow fruit trees. You'd be surprised at how many parallels there are to financial investments. (Pro tip: the risk-free rate of return is the banana yield that a given area of land could produce.)

  • If you do end up investing, a while back I put together a short guide on how to make it ever so slightly less bad for the environment.

    Though with how crazy everything is, it is a bit of a risk to invest into the stock market.

    An alternative option might be to invest in a CD with a credit union, which would have a safe guaranteed return, but usually at a lower rate. Alliant (an online only credit union) usually has pretty good CD rates compared to brick and mortar ones.

    Perhaps a mixture of both methods would give good results, only investing the percentage into the stock market that you're willing to risk.

  • Every case is unique, so you need to do what you think is best for your specific case. I personally mostly perfer to invest into things that lower my ongoing costs and not things that increase my income. In the end time is the most valuable thing you have, so think about it from that perspective.

  • I work at a wage job to make money. I buy things with the money I make. I don't like this system, but I'm coerced into participating in it, so I do my best to survive within it. Investing is a part of that, to me it is ethically no different than wage earning and buying things. I'm not going to destroy myself simply to protest my enclosure. I can do a lot more to help others when I'm closer to thriving than I am to impoverishment, and "this system sucks and shouldn't exist" is IMO a more powerful statement coming from someone who would otherwise seem to benefit from that system.

  • As Adorno said (and I paraphrase): There is no right life in the wrong circumstances.

    On another note: Perhaps you can join a cooperative (if it’s a thing where you live). Your money would help a good cause, you‘d get a small sum every year.

  • I choose to work, be super frugal and quit work at 35 and am now 58. So the quiet thing was being able to quit work and live off the capital i had invested and buy a small cheaper cottage ina small rural town..

    Still being frugal now allows me to do that and enjoy the things I enjoy. Cycling, reading, pottering in the small workshop, annoying my GF with dad jokes and helping her with the donkey work on the garden :)

    Is working pay check to pay check for mega corp any less ethical then investing any small surplus in them ? In the world we live in, to get the basics like food, shelter etc we need to bear our ass to capitalism, if we don't we get to suffer the razor worse dildo of consequence.

    You won't get rich but u might have an extra buffer i make more then enough and get to donate small annual surplus to worthwhile organizations.

    At some stage it will come crashing down but until then...

    All the best and I hope it works out.

  • I've participated in quite a few corporate votes that stopped companies being extra evil.

    Shareholders are the true power in this world.

24 comments