Signal is the No. 1 downloaded app in the Netherlands. But why?

Let's hope they'll be able to continue to use it. It (and all other messengers with proper E2EE) is already on track to be outlawed in Sweden and France, and the new government in Germany will be pro mass-surveillance, too.

Moral of the story? Use ~~selfhostable~~ decentralized messaging instead.
- Milk is getting more expensive. Moral of the story: Buy a cow.
  
  I really wish people would stop being so delusional about the average person’s technological abilities. jUsT TeLL grAn To sPin Up a mATrIx SErvEr.. stfu
- true but this is not yet easy enough for normal humans. selfhosting anything is not yet easy enough
- No way in hell my relatives are going to use a messenger I selfhosted. My brother doesn't even use Signal for whatever reason, even though even my grandmother has it.
- We have never come across one that is as easy to use as Signal and has no problems with encryption, either that it can have its encryption turned off, it breaks easily or that it makes dubious claims with few-no audits to back them up.
  
  Plus the common person enjoys the fun features of Signal or other easy messengers, most decentralised messages do not have these features, are indefinitely working on them or make them not as easy to use, leading to most being uninterested in those messengers.
  
  We have tried most if not all of them, than most and they are definitely lacking as much as we wish they were not. Decentralised encrypted (or partially encrypted) messengers always seem to have problems whether it's with their encryption, moderation tools, connectivity or the lack of other features.

My dad just said in the WhatsApp group, why not move to signal. I tried moving friends and family before, but now that there has been anti meta media reports in some news sources. But especially reports on signal in almost every major newspaper and news source.

It seems not only a push because of privacy, but even more a anti big tech(especially us tech) and buy/use eu stuff push.

I don't mind the push I'm just curious if people stay on signal. Previous time there was a push to signal (during whatsapp technical difficulties and privacy push) people quickly want back to whatsapp.

Now my volunteer work, 1 friend and a family chat already moved to signal. The only thing I did was some explaining that you can just send images and so on. (That it's not something scary)

What are the major differences between what you can do on Whatsapp vs Signal?
- Whatsapp let's you donate your contact list and social network to meta for them to resell.
- The only real differences we can think of is:
  
  Whatsapp unlike Signal doesn't have usernames meaning a phone number must be used to contact others on it, and that Whatsapp's report feature shares the unencrypted message and surrounding messages with Meta to give context for the report.
- it is just a messaging app, legit the exact same. group chats, image and video, previews to links i send, it even has a way higher level of customisability that i haven't found elsewhere.

A lot of VPN servers in Netherlands may have something to do with it.....

Why? Because the Dutch national broadcasters keep plugging it as an alternative to Whatsapp.

Aside... Two apps keep getting mentioned as alternatives, Signal and Element/Matrix, but in MHRO both are not viable as replacements.

Signal: still a US app, CIA funded, provides their encryption backbone to Whatsapp, recommended by governments & FBI. Matrix/Element: Developed in Israel, with ties to IDF, preferred by NATO (NI2CE)

Just FYI:

If you want to say "both are not", you can instead use "neither".
Signal is funded by the CIA now ? And I thought Element is in the UK?
- Signal does seem to have some ties to the CIA
  
  There seems to be a completely different Israeli company called matrix. I can't find any link between the two.
Signal: still a US app, CIA funded

Honestly, this gives me more confidence in it. The CIA is very interested in keeping its people safe, so if they're using it, its in their interest to ensure it's secure. If they do put in a backdoor, I happen to be a US citizen so I'm unlikely to be a target since the CIA is all about surveillance on outsiders (FBI is domestic). FBI and Signal rarely agree, but they agree that Signal is great, so I think that's a pretty strong endorsement.

Add to that Edward Snowden recommends it, and he's certainly an enemy of both the CIA and the FBI at this point.
- If nobody used CIA funded security tools, we wouldn't have security tools
- I happen to be a US citizen so I’m unlikely to be a target since the CIA is all about surveillance on outsiders (FBI is domestic)
  
  All of that's off the table now with Trump in power. It's more than likely the CIA will be deployed against domestic targets.
Other than people you don't like living in the world here with us, do you have any proof of anything actually nefarious done by signal or matrix?
IDGAF who funds it or who develops it.

E2E encrypted

security review by independent party I trust which says there are no holes or bugs

open source

Those three things are all that matters.

I would have rather seen Element but hey, it's a step in the right direction.

Why? Matrix sucks as an instant messenger app, it's better as a Slack/Discord alternative.
- Only because I'm not aware of other decentralised Signal alternatives. That's on me.
- It only sucks because you keep using Element. Its the worst client out there, if you account for "doneness"
Isn't Element based of Matrix? From what I've read, Matrix is a bit mid (not exactly mid, but I can't think of any other word).
- It works as it's supposed to, though the handling of keys (strictly necessary for self-determined end-to-end encrypted chats) can be hard and annoying for people who have no experience. But once you get the hang of device confirmation you can use it seamlessly across multiple devices.
Fluffy Chat is great too!
- Nice! Never heard of that one, I'll look that up!

I guess this means we're not switching to RCS then?

RCS is not an open standard
Nope.

If I can implement my own RCS client, then I'll consider it.

I use Telegram, like betamax have I backed the wrong horse?

All kidding aside from the other comments, Telegram is not secure or private. It's not E2EE by default and getting it enabled is per-chat and convoluted. Frankly, I wouldn't even trust it with cat pics I send to the bros let alone private messages... not to be fear mongering but do yourself a favor and get off Telegram.

Signal, despite some criticism that it's "Not private enough etc.", strikes a balance between usability, privacy and security. It's also miles better than Telegram on all fronts.

A big issue we have in the privacy community is that it's easy to have an "all or nothing mindset". Even small steps in the right direction can be hugely beneficial. So, Signal is great. Use Signal.
I'm sure going all in on a Russian company is just fine. Their Wikipedia entry has nothing at all to indicate any shady behavior.

/s
- Oops, I didn't realise. I'd not fully adopted so will pivot. Ta
Nah we good bro (I have zero objective data to back this up but I want to think it's true because I'd be too lazy to move)
- All kidding aside from the other comments, Telegram is not secure or private. It’s not E2EE by default and getting it enabled is per-chat and convoluted. Frankly, I wouldn’t even trust it with cat pics I send to the bros let alone private messages… not to be fear mongering but do yourself a favor and get off Telegram.
  
  Signal, despite some criticism that it’s “Not private enough etc.”, strikes a balance between usability, privacy and security. It’s also miles better than Telegram on all fronts.
  
  A big issue we have in the privacy community is that it’s easy to have an “all or nothing mindset”. Even small steps in the right direction can be hugely beneficial. So, Signal is great. Use Signal.
- Nah ur (not) that good bro

Fuck signal. No "privacy" focused messenger should need a phone number to register...at that point u basically handing the agencys meta data on a platter

privacy != anonymity
- nitpicking
I know it's not the best, but it is great when you want someone to shift from other popular proprietary app like WhatsApp.
- Replacing one phone number based system with another may not be a wise choise.
Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Getting people off of proprietary stuff is the first step. Whatever else is the next step.

Anti Commercial-AI license
- Why are you licensing your comment?
You know that your phone number is never saved anywhere? Signal only uses a cryptographic hash of your phone number.
at that point u basically handing the agencys meta data on a platter

Can you explain what you mean? I'm not sure I understand how that would work.
- Well in many nation you can only get a phone number by showing ID, hence the number itself isnt anonymized. So if there is a legal request to signal they hand over the number and u already de anonymized. If you dont use your own number you have to relock signal every week (manual) so the number cant be used for account takeover....why is that lock even on a timer? That just sounds like a trap.
  
  But lets assume u used your own number, and it gets found out. With that number it would be easy af for a state actor to send u a zero day SMS to take over your phone...there are so many reasons why a phone number is just bad to use as a identifier in a privacy focused app. The technical hurdles to allow account creation without phone number or like just to have number as optional, are very low. The official reason for the numbers is spam protection....but there are a lot of privacy messengers out there that dont use numbers and dont have a spam problem.
Jmp.chat is worth being aware of

Also you're a wackadoo
- Yeah lets use the phone number of a middle man to sign up...sure u wont forget to relock the number every week so they dont get the power for account take over since they manage your number.
Errybody hatin' your logic but your logic is just that: paranoid and for no shortage of good reason and those are my dice.

Session

GPG