2y ago

European Council of Foreign Relations openly talks about vassalisation of Europe by the US

ecfr.eu The art of vassalisation: How Russia’s war on Ukraine has transformed transatlantic relations

Europeans’ response to Russia’s war on Ukraine confirms their profound dependence on the US – an unwise position given the security challenge in Europe and coming geopolitical competition with China.

The report is absolutely scathing. Some choice quotes:

But when the next crisis came, both the US and the governments of Europe fell back on old models of alliance leadership. Europe, as EU high representative for foreign affairs Josep Borrell loudly lamented prior to Russia’s invasion, is not really at the table when it comes to dealing with the Russia-Ukraine crisis. It has instead embarked on a process of vassalisation.

But “alone” had a very specific meaning for Scholz. He was unwilling to send Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine unless the US also sent its own main battle tank, the M1 Abrams. It was not enough that other partners would send tanks or that the US might send other weapons. Like a scared child in a room full of strangers, Germany felt alone if Uncle Sam was not holding its hand.

Europeans’ lack of agency in the Russia-Ukraine crisis stems from this growing power imbalance in the Western alliance. Under the Biden administration, the US has become ever more willing to exercise this growing influence.

168 comments

Like a scared child in a room full of strangers, Germany felt alone if Uncle Sam was not holding its hand.
From another angle Germany twisted the US' arm until they did what we wanted them to do. Atlanticism in Germany is right-wing, the SPD certainly has its faults but worshipping the US is not one of them.
The nations of Europe are not currently capable to defend themselves and so they have no choice but to rely on the US in a crisis
Against who? Aliens? Who is this hypothetical enemy that can invade Europe? Capabilities aren't exactly as they should be, it would be nasty going against a rogue US, yes, but we could still bring the whole thing to a stalemate even if it would necessitate a couple of French nukes getting dropped on carrier groups.
...and don't get me started on them wanking off to the dollar value of US contributions. Much of what they send should be valued negatively (in monetary terms) because it's surplus and they're saving on disposal costs. Meanwhile, if the EU had the US' ammunition production capacity Ukraine would've run out by now.
The US has been pussy-footing around this whole conflict, see e.g. the row about ATACMs, the UK had to send Storm Shadow (which they don't exactly have a surplus of, to the contrary) to twist the US' arm.
What many analysts don't seem to get into their head, it just doesn't fit their framework, is that Europe as a whole is a lot more "hawkish" in this conflict than the US, leading to all kinds of misinterpretations. "But Europe is so peace-loving and warm and fuzzy" -- no, motherfucker, we hate imperialism. That's all there is to it. We have plenty of former Russian colonies in the union and with shit going down as it went, the western members finally understood that no, Russia can't be reasoned with, or even be counted on to act in self-interest, instead of chalking the eastern member's attitude up to PTSD.
- From another angle Germany twisted the US’ arm until they did what we wanted them to do. Atlanticism in Germany is right-wing, the SPD certainly has its faults but worshipping the US is not one of them.
  The top EU think tank very clearly disagrees with you here. It's also pretty clear that Germany ended up being the big loser here given that it's now in a recession. So, I guess if that's what Germany wanted then it certainly did a brilliant job twisting US' arm to destroy German industry. Given that this has been the stated goal of US for years now, I don't think much twisting required here.
  Against who? Aliens?
  Europe wouldn't have anyone to defend itself against if it didn't keep creating enemies for itself. It was entirely possible to dismantle NATO after USSR collapsed and integrate Russia into Europe as an equal. Instead, Europe chose to have an antagonistic relationship with Russia, and now Europe finds itself in a protection racket situation.
  Finally, the idea that Europe could fight US or Russia in an all out war is completely delusional. Europe lacks the industrial base to do this kind of warfare, and it also lacks access to energy. Meanwhile, if we're talking about nukes both US and Russia have literally an order of magnitude more nukes than all of Europe combined.
  
  So, I guess if that’s what Germany wanted then it certainly did a brilliant job twisting US’ arm to destroy German industry.
  The fuck have Abrams anything to do with Germany's industry? How is that in any way connected? Are you simply making up slogans?
  Instead, Europe chose to have an antagonistic relationship with Russia
  Oh my fucking sides. Заткнись ватник блядь.
  
  Nothing can fight the US, it's like the richest country and half the budget goes to the military. Russia would not be much of a threat though, especially now. Also the only country dependant on Russia was Germany and now that isn't the case so I'm not sure what you mean by "lacks access to energy".

Yeah, but a lot of it comes from Europe not choosing to lead on any international crisis, to the point where it has intentionally designed its defense to require the US to participate.
I look at it like this, the EU should have its own independent military from NATO given its size and wealth. Yet, it chooses to be entirely dependent on NATO and needs the US to help in any sort of projection of force.
- Which is a huge misunderstanding of how Europe works. It's not federal like the US and would require all countries to agree to a centralised army. Many countries are rightly concerned about the concept and what it would mean for their own sovereign armed forces so won't approve the idea.
  
  Or it is federal in the same way the Holy Roman Empire was.
  And the concern that European politicians seem to have is that an EU army would require the EU to define military policy rather than just follow US military policy. It isn't that the EU couldn't be made to gain greater competencies in military and diplomatic areas, it is that the various EU nations are happier letting the US define that instead.
- Becoming a vassal of the US is the direct consequences of that choice.
- It really is a matter of European countries keeping to the defense spending requirements they have already committed to under NATO. A lot of Europeans I talk to claim that it is wasteful, and that money is better spent on foreign aide. But meanwhile, the US still foots the bill for their defense. This is an intense able situation - the US cannot put the entire world on ots back. Multilaterlaism has to mean cooperation from the rest of the world to ensure safety.
  
  But it is more than that. A lot of EU nations don't have a military of a size capable of more than just basic infantry. This has been a problem for NATO as the US has created a lot of the logistics and specialty platforms required to fight a modern war that a lot of other nations don't pay into.
  The EU is already seeing the merging of several military units because it is cheaper to develop them at scale. At that point, why not just have all of the EU create and manage the joint arms at a level where it makes more sense?
- What are you talking about? Every country in Europe already has its own military and the EU has a defensive clause it the pact.
  
  Every country in Europe already has its own military
  And each American state has its own military as well that is controlled by the different governors.
  and the EU has a defensive clause it the pact
  And the base for that defense pact is NATO headquarters. This is also only defense only, which makes cases where the EU needs to respond to threats on its frontier difficult because there is no organizing entity to handle this issue. And if the defense pact was the reason for inter-EU defense, it is going to be through the lens of NATO, which gives the US a pretty big say on EU defense.

That's a lot of words just to say "Germany hesitated about sending tanks to Ukraine therefore the US is now the colonial master of Europe."
Apparently that's all it takes. Just a slight hesitation on a decision and you lose all sovereignty forever.
Or maybe the hesitation over the tanks was a little disappointing, but not really that big a deal. Calm down people.
- It was a bit late by then. Germany lost it's sovereignty right about the time the US turned up in Berlin to stop the Soviets from advancing any further.
  If Germany really had sovereignty, would it really have done so little after it's 'allies' blew up Nordstream 2, causing German deindustrialisation and increasing German consumer and industrial energy insecurity?
  
  It was a bit late by then. Germany lost it's sovereignty right about the time the US turned up in Berlin to stop the Soviets from advancing any further.
  When exactly did the US turned up in Berlin? They didn't. Western and soviet forces met at the river Elbe
  Furthermore with the 4+2 treaty Germany got sovereignty officially, with the opposition to the illegal invasion of Iraq 2003 Germany went fully sovereign.
  If Germany really had sovereignty, would it really have done so little after it's 'allies' blew up Nordstream 2, causing German deindustrialisation and increasing German consumer and industrial energy insecurity?
  Who blew up Nordstream 2?
- 😂

We will see how it plays out long term, but it seems to me that the US is hollowing out Europe to enrich themselves in their economic war against China. If you don't believe that, look what the US is doing to encourage manufacturers to leave Europe and move to the US, or the fact that they overcharge Europe on fossil fuels.
- I think that's precisely what's happening, the amazing part is how many Europeans refuse to acknowledge it because they painted themselves into a situation where they're entirely reliant on US for protection now.

Over the last decade, the EU has grown relatively less powerful than America – economically, technologically, and militarily.
I got curious about this so I checked wolframalpha: in 2009, the EU had a bigger economy than the USA; in 2022 the USA's was bigger by 53%
- Yeah, US has been finding ways to kneecap EU for a while, and what we're seeing today is just the latest.

If by "scathing," you mean one-sided reporting ignoring political context and contemporary events, then yes. It's very"scathing".
By "scathing", do you mean reiterating in extremist language the same thing European leaders have said over the past few months, that the EU relies to heavily on US military force?
Cool example of propagandizing old news. Making good news bad is your style.
- You do know what ECFR is right?
  
  Yes. An anti-atlanticist lobby group. They're not neutral.
  I agree with them when it comes to pushing European strategic autonomy but the reasoning they present here is bonkers. The purpose of this piece is to scare atlanticists out of atlanticism, not provide accurate analysis.
  
  Yes. Did you need a primer?

And yet countries, given free choice, came running to NATO. Curious 🤔
- given free choice
  I don't remember any referendum to join NATO here.
  
  Now, now, let's not let facts get in the face of the narrative here.
  
  When was there a time when Poland became a democracy where a referendum to join NATO would not have passed?
- *And yet the bourgeoisie of Europe, given free choice, came running to NATO. Curious 🤔

China has placed itself at the heart of many critical supply chains that the US and its allies depend on. It has defined itself in cultural and ideological opposition to the US and to the idea of democracy, using its new wealth to spread the techniques of authoritarian control to every continent on Earth.
Glad you're finally posting some truth about China's authoritarianism, instead of your deluded nonsense about comnunism
- How deluded do you have to be to think communists don't read news from a lot of sources?
  Just because the mouthpiece providing us with the news is propagandized doesn't mean we cannot properly engage with it. We are human beings with brains damn it, what kind of dumbass would uncritically side with everything an article (or worse, whole press houses) espouses.
  And the best part, you prefer to "gotcha" someone, instead of actually engage with the meat of the article.
- Ah yes, providing an alternative to US exploitation of the world is AuThoRitaRiaN! 🤡
  
  Are you saying the Chinese government is not authoritarian?
  
  I'd rather have no exploitation. Alternative exploitation isn't really better.

I'm unsubscribing from this community. There are plenty of better world news communities on other instances. You seem to be a prolific poster on this community and I strongly disagree with everything you say and post.
- Bye!
- Did you just announce your departure as if you’re in an airport?

168 comments