1y ago

murder is murder

153 comments

Let me copy pasta myself here to save time and just say - they are already murdering us in the millions, any harm that might come to them is an act of self defence.
Look around - the violence is already here, it has been inflicted on to the working class for centuries, killing hundreds of millions (at least, in all that time) for profit in war, with hunger and restricted access to water, with homelessness and poverty, with preventable disease, with climate change, with immoral laws and entire systems designed to keep large segments of the population as slave labour, which is what they used to gain their power and wealth to be in the position to impose all of this in the first place. And all that just off the top of my head, there is so much more violence that is inflicted on us daily, they've just got most people convinced that's just life, when it really really isn't. And those who actually benefit are never just going to give all of that up.
- But they did though. Robert E Lee, Jefferson Davis, Alexander H Stephens, plus countless slaveowners all just... surrendered, and went back to owning the exact same plantations their slaveowning had provided the startup capital for.
  Was it right? Hell no! Their plantations should have been given to their slaves. We would live in a better country if they had.
  But it's worth repeating that people who blew out their chest and blustered about how it was better to die than to lose this fight just went right back to comfortable lives after a heinous, sadistic, brutal form of capital exploitation was abolished right out from under them.
  If you can abolish slavery without killing Dolly Sumner Lint or Jefferson Davis, then it stands to reason that even after sending Pinkertons, cops, and bootlickers to die by the thousands, these billionaires will surrender at the first sign of blood on their doorstep.
  Meaning you can abolish capital without killing Jamie Johnson OR Jeff Bezos.
  Which in turn means the killing of those particular people ends up peripheral at best.
  They will not throw their bodies in front of the bullets aimed at their orphan killing machines.
  As much closure as they would bring, as good as that would feel. It's just not going to happen.
  And then, at that point -- when they have surrendered -- it's like torturing a serial killer. We gain nothing. It doesn't bring anyone back to life. It doesn't put the aerosolized carbon back underground or bring the temperature back to livable levels. All it does is introduce a little bit more pain to the world.
  Again: at best.
  At worst it could potentially set a precedent that anyone perceived as "aligned" with billionaires deserves the same death inflicted on those billionaires.
  In other words, at worst, it could turn the person holding the guillotine into the de facto capitalist controlling all of the factories, all of the land, and all of the equipment single-handedly. Because who is going to stop them? Anyone who challenges that person can be easily labeled a "reactionary capitalist counter-revolutionary" and punished according to that label.
  
  Perhaps because even after they lost the slaves they were still rich as fuck and powerful. And then they passed laws to still enslave black people and fuck them over so shit didn't really change all that much. Think about how much better life would be today if every slave owner and klansman were put to death for their heinous crimes instead of slapped on the wrist and given back control of their slaves
  
  What an absurd sweeping generalization of incredibly complex events and context.
  Just say you’re another bootlicker and get on with your life. Please oh PLEASE don’t hurt those that exclusively exist to make our lives worse keep us poor dumb and sick!!!
  You sayin the French were fools? Fuck off with your neat little bow on top of a simple little “just threaten them and they will play nice”, life isn’t that simple, that’s not how this works, the civil war and what we have now is incomparable. These billionaires are international and actually play as a united team against us poors.
  But yeah just a drop of blood and Bezos gives up his fortune and union breaking and insane net worth and lives a subservient life after that. Yeah that sounds realistic
  
  Reconstruction was ended through assassination. This was hardly a resounding conclusion to slavery but a re-systemization of oppression. For starters, the slaves never received compensation, whole many of the previous slave owners did. Same goes for the GI Bill.

I kind of envy the mindset where one has empathy for someone who is so out of touch with reality given their status. I like to think I'm a good, just person that wants to do the right thing but when I think of what the billionaire's perspective is: someone with so much power and influence that most people are just objects or playthings to them, it's frustrating to think about. They think they're bigger than people, the earth, maybe even the universe.
I'm not saying I could be the triggerman, I'm not that kind of person, but yeah, fuck 'em.
- Exactly. These people are downright evil. They at least accept that their actions kill thousands of people. Why would I has sympathy with a psychopathic murderer?
  
  I don't think you should, but should we derive what is just from how much sympathy capital a given person has? Assuming your objective is to end poverty, etc, and to minimize suffering, then if you are ready to advocate for something like murder even in the hypothetical that you absolutely don't need to, then you're probably just letting your feeling dictate your actions. You can of course dispute that hypothetical, and there is definitely an argument to be made there, but a lot of people don't and still go all in on it. Hence the problem with "wanting" these people to die, as opposed to "doing what is necessary".
- It's a war. It's just that one side has been convinced it wasn't a war so they should be peaceful and nice. Propaganda...
- It amazes me that people don't make the connection that billionaires are both directly and indirectly killing massive amounts of people. They force people to live paycheck to paycheck, skip meals, skip basic medical needs, work multiple jobs till they die, feel in a hopeless cycle until the depression is too overwhelming.
  They deserve to die.
- Empathy doesn't mean you can't be angry. I feel sorry that they have so much money it's corrupted their view and made them heartless gods amongst men. Feeling sad for someone doesn't mean you can't be mad and it doesn't mean you can't want them to see justice.
  
  I think most people (on every part of the political spectrum, unfortunately) believe that restorative justice is the same thing as punitive justice.
  And it's hard to explain to someone who thinks they are the same that "making someone suffer" can be independent and separate from "righting someone's wrongs." That you can be anti-suffering and pro-reparation.
  It's kind of like this: there are languages that don't have a word for green. The people who grow up speaking these languages have a harder time distinguishing different shades of green.
  You say, "I don't want that shade of green." And these people respond, "the hell is wrong with you!? We agreed we wanted this blue-yellow color that you call green! Now you're saying you want less green instead of more? Green is good!" Because they genuinely cannot see what you're advocating against and what you're advocating for.
  Just like how it's nearly impossible for me to explain to a pro-capitalist that there is a difference between a workers' cooperative and a public traded corporation. The person will say, "they're both businesses" even though to me that's like saying dictatorships and democracies are, "both governments."
  But the difference is missing from their vocabulary. And because of that, they don't even know how to approach it and think about it and express their thoughts on it. Because they don't even have the words to describe it.

They can live, but it has to be on 60k a year, with all of their initial assets liquidated and used to support people in need.
- 60k a year is probably already too generous in most cases, make them live off of the equivalent salary of their lowest paid employee
- yeah i'm fine with that but not murder like a lot of people here say they want
  
  I think most of us start with the assumption that they'll never give up their stranglehold willingly, and move on to more practical solutions.
  
  To a billionaire that fate is worse than being murdered.
  
  B
- Look I'm all for taxing the wealthy, but saying we should force billionaires, or really anyone for that matter, to give up everything more than $60k/year is fucking laughably insane.
  
  Why, exactly? Only two years ago, 37.9 million people were below the poverty line, which is only $20k/yr. And that's only counting the US. If we can do it, they can do it.
  If those making over $60k currently cannot make it work when so many of their own countrymen have been doing so for their entire lives, perhaps we need to talk. If nothing else, I can give you financial advice.

I want them to give up their wealth and power for the benefit of society. But they aren't going to do that, are they?
- A rare few do. They're off limits.
  
  They sure aren't. They give up their wealth, but by doing so gain more power. They get to decide what is important for the world by dumping millions of dollars in their favourite charities. Charities that they conveniently get to put their names on to feel good about themselves.
  
  If they still have billions to their name, they're not as good or generous as they've made you think they are.

Billionaires is a weird group of people to choose to speak up for.
- They can afford protection.

I personally am a pacifist, but the billionaires will not be missed if the general public decides to
I don't advocate for it, I just won't miss them
Keanu can stay though
- I believe it was Twain that said "I've never wished a man dead, but there are obituaries that I have read with great satisfaction."

Yes. Your a naive fool.
Unironically choosing the lives of some of the most vile despicable people to have ever lived over the lives of 50,000x as many completely normal people.
I want to eradicate their genomes.
- *you're
- While I do agree with you, minor spelling mistake.

...And?
Murder can be just without being legal.
The murder of billionaires, and CEOs of oil companies (along with all other oil executives) is morally justified, even if it's not legal.

Murdering people is wrong.
People work together to build a society that helps those who cannot help themselves.
By this metric, billionaires aren't people.
- Is there a point where someone who is born human is beyond humanity? Where their depravity and lack of empathy no longer links them to actual society?
  
  I'm feeling a lot of that in this thread as far a lack of empathy goes.
  We all act as if we're experts on what it takes to become a billionaire and are confident enough in our knowledge to the point that some people here are actually ok with murder because they think they know enough to justify it.
  Just one, possibly shitty, example: Bezos' ex wife. Did she do anything wrong to people? Bezos more than likely did, but as far as I can tell the worst thing she did was be married to him. She's a billionaire now. Do we murder her? Is that really justified?
  Personally I'd much rather have them all stripped of their wealth and made to live like the rest of us. Their endless quest for more and more wealth would leave them distraught if it was all taken away. Murder is not only wrong, but too quick of a thing especially if you truly hate these people.
  
  It's more of a line in the sand or a gradient than a hard point of "pass this and you're not human anymore".
  
  Crimes against humanity and warcrimes meet the thresh in my mind.
  I'd shoot someone like Al-Assad myself and I doubt I'd be very disturbed by it.

It's them or us

My tummy has the rumblies that only billionaires can satisfy

I don’t want to murder them specifically, but I doubt they will let us take all their stolen wealth without a fight.

It's only murder if you subscribe to the "meat is murder" mantra...
- I think meat is murder, but i still think we should kill billionaires.
  The same way I wouldn't kill a cow for a burger, but Id defend myself if some wild animal was trying to kill me.

Killing insects isn't murder. It's pest control.

You don't?

murder is murder... but some murders are definitely less... crime-y than others
- Self defence isn't murder
  
  They're coming for you, whether you fight back or not.

For me it's a case of where the end justifies the means. While murder is terrible and I'd personally feel bad if I had to take another life, it'd be for the greater good of our species (as well as every other lifeform on this planet) if the world was suddenly ridded of a billionaire or two... or more...
I do recognise that this is a slippery slope in justifying homicide, but what is the alternative?

So OP, I'm unsure how to ask this, but you wouldn't happen to be... Say... A billionaire would you?
- OP glow in da dark

Let the free market decide.
- But the free market is rigged by the billionaires
  
  Idk, its clear billionaire cage fights is not a niche market after recent internet antics.
- I agree with this

Shamelessly, yes.

Proof that people from off of Blahaj zone are weak

Not only murder, also torture.
- I think make an example of is more my mentality. If you peel their skin off, others that are less rich my say it's not worth hoarding all that wealth.
- Honestly, not for it, death is enough. Even that carries risks.
  https://crimethinc.com/2019/04/08/against-the-logic-of-the-guillotine-why-the-paris-commune-burned-the-guillotine-and-we-should-too

Sorry, I'm just hangry. Lab grown billionare meat just doesn't have the same kick.

..do you not?

Yes I do, even if there was a better way.
- do unto others
  
  Tell them that.
  No one gets to be a billionaire without someone further down the chain dying.

I am a starving child and this is the last post I will see before I die. Goodbye

I’m sorry, but this point of view is so brain-dead to me. What do you think happens when a billionaire dies? The money magically disappears? It’s redistributed to the masses? No, it’s inherited by relatives. Killing billionaires only creates different billionaires. How about we use our brains and come up with actual solutions rather than parroting brain-dead bullshit?
- You're taking the argument at it's most basic level, assuming that we would kill the billionaires and then sit around twiddling out thumbs. I don't think it's much of a leap to assume we'd change how the system works as well lol.
  
  Ok? Then maybe do that without the murder part??? If you have actual ideas of how to change the system, then do it?

If you assassinated or executed all the billionaires in the world nothing would change. They are just figureheads at the top of a big corporate mound. Yes they are absurdly personally rich, but the majority of that wealth is tied up in the value of companies that they own - the companies wouldn't go anywhere, and they would continue to do the same bullshit with or without a billionaire at the top.
- I wish more people would understand this. If you remove the capitalists, capitalism will just make more. You need to remove capitalism, though obviously the capitalists will fight you on that and you may want to remove them from the system anyway. In either case, a lot of eat the rich discourse sounds like it's out of spite and not in search of actual solutions.
  
  Frankly the actual individuals at the top of the corporate pyramids are probably the least important elements in the whole fucked structure. If we disassemble the foundations, well, they have a long way to fall and we won't need to push.
  
  I just see it as venting. People feel better when they see a whole bunch of others agreeing when they say "eat the rich."
  When I see it I just laugh and think "yeah right, you're literally never going to do that. We'll removed on ~~reddit~~ lemmy and then never do anything about it."
- Pretty sure if all the billionaires were written in a death note then would-be billionaires would think twice. What's missing is repeated culling, then they would do more then think twice.
  
  This still doesn't stop the problem, though. Because the corporations they own will still operate, and their multimillionaire shareholders will just avoid technically reaching the billion mark. Billionaires aren't the problem, they are a symptom.

Haha jk.... unless

No. I want to murder big-business, but I fear it's already too late.

I want to eat them. Murder is merely a stepping stone
- Slather in Sweeet Baby Rays!

Agree with OP... societal/systemic changes would be great, but I'd never wish death on anyone.
I know it's pretty common on here, but rhetoric about killing people, guillotine memes, etc skeeve me out
- Look, no one wishes death first thing, obviously people would prefer it if billionaires suddenly became good people and gave up their money willingly. Obviously people would prefer it if the government made extreme sanctions or taxes against them. There are many things people want but time and time again they don't get them. There's really no just way to have that much more money and power than everyone else. They're modern day monarchs in all but title. Policy makers may have the power but they're forced to stay in line and not deviate too far from what the billionaires want. When the solution to better humanity is "you should share more, you've got more than you could ever possibly imagine needing" it's no surprise that the people with the power to keep those folks out of office do so. That's why we see such mild criticisms from so many parties and even an embrace of the rich by the American "left".
- Agreed. Personally, all I wanna do is take the vast majority of their money and redistribute it to society. They can keep a few million to fuck off with. I don't really care about them beyond that. They largely only have power imbalance because of their money. I don't think anyone should be a billionaire (or frankly more than about $10M USD or so -- which is currently enough to comfortably live your life without having to work, yet isn't utterly crazy).
  Once they no longer are so rich, why would I care about them anymore? I'm not one to try and get revenge or anything, and I think that's a harmful way of thinking. I just want society to suck less and fixing the massive wealth imbalance is a big part of that.
  If we were in a position where "eat the rich" could be taken literally, then "seize their current and future wealth" is just as achievable.
- Well, it's complicated. Ideally, I would make them all millionaires. But, they made it so that this is more difficult than murdering them.

Well, OP, maybe you ought to look into the life and times of Pu Yi, an imperial ruler who was allowed to live out his natural life after his oppressive dynasty was overthrown.
- sorry, are you suggesting that the republicans should have murdered a six year old
  
  i don't think so. what makes you say that?
  my suggestion was that the alternative to killing the powerful and oppressive (given pu yi was a figurehead and his willingness to go along with reeducation came from lack of material intrest as well as his own personal life) has already been figured out by the chinese communists.

The prevelance of the "murder billionaires" mindset and other generally negative attitudes and suggested violent solutions to everything - even more often and more exaggerated than reddit - is probably gonna chase me off lemmy. It's everywhere here. Even blocking all the explicitly political communities isn't enough to keep it away. This platform has a lot of growing up to do, and I'm not sure if it's gonna do it.
- can i have your stuff
  
  You have to first open a shell company to handle the liability, don't worry you just bankrupt it to avoid all consequences and open a new one.
- You wouldn’t last a day around gen Zers with that attitude bud.
- Glass half full, there's very little talk of murdering millionaires, so hypothetically things are looking up!
  
  i suppose a millionaire would basically taste as good as a billionaire.. you'd probably have to eat a lot of both to be able to tell the difference..