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Curt @beehaw.org

Do You Think There Would Have Been a Large Protest if Steve Huffman Just Said We're Charging to Use the API to Increase Revenue?

I've been a long time Redditor and an Apollo user for about a year. I even paid for it. The main draw for me was the lack of advertising. In the back of my head I kept thinking that it couldn't last. Reddit is losing revenue from the lack of advertising views. It didn't

To me, Reddit's sky high pricing for the use of the API is intended to kill off apps like Apollo and for its users to move to the advertising filled web site or its own app, which I've never used.

If Huffman came out and said this was a revenue move right off would everyone be as upset as they are? Are people upset because Huffman completely mishandled the move or because they got their ad free experience turned off? If Reddit had an app the same quality as Apollo only with ads, would they be OK with it. I've only used Apollo so I can't speak to the other apps.

I can't blame Reddit for wanting to make money. It doesn't make a profit. Investors have to keep pouring in money to keep it going. They're going to want to see a return on their investment at some point. Usually they cash in on an IPO, but IPO's are generally only successful if the corporation looks like it will be profitable or at least the stock price continues to go up. That's how capitalism works.

In my case, I probably would have left regardless. I can't stand adds in my feed. I probably wouldn't have heard of lemmy or kbin if there hadn't been such an uproar. So I'm glad it went the way it did.

192 comments

  • The thing that I've seen pretty consistently from both RIF and Apollo devs is that they're not disputing the fact that reddit needs to start making a profit. Nobody's (seriously) complaining about what was free becoming not free.

    The fact is, if this was purely about money, they'd be willing to negotiate on price. The price they're asking is ~70x more than imgur, which hosts images WAAAAAY heavier to host than text, and links etc.

    If it was solely about showing ads, they could have given 3PAs access to reddit ads via the api, and enforced showing them.

    There are several ways this could have worked for everyone.

    Reddit wanted to kill 3PAs. That's the only logical conclusion here. Hell, if they'd come out and said THAT, as well as fixing the problems with their own app first, I might even have been able see their side of it. I would still be pissed, but it'd be more understandable than this very blatant Twitter-esque death-by-pricing thing they're trying to do.

    • The reports were that the amount they are asking 3PAs to pay is 29× the revenue that they would make from a user in advertising. Astonishing.

      But I agree. If they had started this out simply by saying "no more 3PAs except for approved accessibility-focused apps", the protest would never have been able to get the steam it did. That statement would have cut the legs out of the accessibility-focused concerns (even though it doesn't actually adequately address VI users' needs). It would have removed the possibility for the huge drama that happened with their awful communication with and lies to 3PA devs. It would have completely mitigated bot devs' concerns. And it would have made the NSFW issues completely moot. With those issues addressed, there would have been nothing for the protests to really hook on to in quite the same way.

    • The price they’re asking is ~70x more than imgur, which hosts images WAAAAAY heavier to host than text, and links etc.

      The apollo dev got a very discounted price for the imgur api. Still, general imgur prices are about 3-4 times cheaper than the amount reddit is asking for now. That is if you stay in your quota. Exceeding the imgur quota costs about $1 per 1000 read requests, though. The value talked about for reddit is a flat rate of $.24/1000 or ~$1/3000 requests, no discounted plans are known to me.

      The fact is, if this was purely about money, they’d be willing to negotiate on price.

      That still holds true, though.

  • The controversy started when their API fees were astronomically high as to constructively end all 3rd party apps.

    I think the real anger started when Steve Huffman lied about the Apollo developer and the dev started posting the recordings to prove that Huffman was lying through his teeth.

    After that, Huffman stepped onto multiple rakes as he does a poor job of crisis management. They don’t know where the value from their product comes from.

    • I used reddit 10x as much as Netflix, if not more. So I'd have been more than happy to pay the same price for all eternity to access the api.

      Hell they could have given out individual api keys tied to usernames so that regardless of the app, you'd be fed input from the free tier (with ads & rate limiting) or pro tier (unlimited and no ads). That would also help to curb malicious bots and reduce the number of alts in the game.

      But no, they chose the nuclear option and are now choking on the fallout. And Huffman's erratic and hostile response further down the line really sealed the coffin for me.

  • The protest is not about the fact that they are charging for it. The protest is about the fact of how much they are charging for it. When compared to imgur the rates are absolutely insane.

    I keep seeing this incorrectly reported and it drives me crazy. No developer is upset about Reddit charging for the API access. What they are upset about is the fact that Reddit has jacked the price of that API access up so high that no third party apps could ever afford to use it.

    • At this point of time though, it has grown to be less about that though, and how disrespectful Spaz is treating everyone. Even if he reversed his decision, who can trust the guy now?

      He's made it clear that even if you spent the last 10 years working on promoting your community making it successful, that he'll happily ban your account and hijack your community, for a silent takeover. There are some serious shadow government vibes happening.

      Given the way Spaz lied about the Apollo developer, even if API access was only $1 per month I wouldn't pay anymore (because I don't feel Spaz should have the money)

      • I understand that, but framing it as "reddit users are mad because reddit wants to charge for API access" paints reddit users as entitled, when what is actually happening is "reddit users are mad because reddit decided to charge for API access with only 30 days notice and set the prices so high that third party app developers would have to pay potentially millions of dollars per year in order to access it".

        There is a massive difference between those two statements. One makes reddit users look like a bunch of entitled assholes, and the other frames the situation correctly and truthfully.

  • I think there's a lot they could have done better. They could have injected ads into the API feeds directly so they could still get revenue and make it part of the terms that a client can't remove them, and offer a paid version of the API that doesn't have ads. That could work with the clients who could then continue to offer a free ad supported version or a subscription that removes them with Reddit getting a cut. I would have been totally understanding of that and reddit could have gotten a ton of subscription revenue by leveraging the existing distribution channels.

    They're a company, they have to pay the bills, I get that, but they went over the line with their deception, greed, and hunger for power. This wasn't just about making money, it's also about control. This was all just an underhanded move to kill 3rd party apps without outright banning them. They want total control so they can continue to make ui decisions that make then more money at the expense of the user experience with their users not having an alternative client to go to. They clearly don't have any respect for their users so why would I use them?

  • Notice how Reddit haven't engaged in any positive damage control at all? It's just been hit pieces against devs, an AMA with completely canned responses and unprecedented wide-spread hostile action against it's content creators/power users/mods?

    Reddit is in full-blown sell out mode right now and nothing but money matters anymore. It's all down hill from here.

    • Yeah, I don't care about third party apps or API anymore. Their handling of it became very clear that they are headed in the direction of a Zuckerberg run type multi billion dollar company fully monetizing and extracting data from users, so I don't feel like using their sketchy app like I would never use a Facebook app or Tiktok app, or make an account for either of those two. And don't want to provide location based behavioral data they get from ip addresses and what type of interests I'm into so they can sell that type of demographic data to companies.

      People share way more on reddit than they do to people they know because of pseudonyms, so yeah I don't want to directly provide anymore than I have to towards the profits of a large corporation.

    • It does certainly seem like it, but what exactly are they trying to achieve? They don't have an IPO yet and even if they got one now it would be devalued over before the shit show. And with every new day reddit shows potential investors that they have absolutely no control of the situation, and just doubles down on idiocy.
      How is it supposed to make money at this point?

      • Ad revenue should convince the investors. Who cares if there’s no real content besides automated reposts and bot spam, as long as there are some users who they can shower with an endless stream of ads.

      • Memory is short on the internet. Reddit are hoping for this to blow over "quickly" (i.e. in a month or two) because they know the bulk of their users will continue to show up (out of inertia or a lack of viable alternatives). If they can keep the front page showing decent posts, they think they'll make it through.

        I think the knock-on effects of losing mods and "power users" will take some time to play out. The real long term effects won't be known until it becomes clear that the loss of those key users has effected the quality of the posts and therefor usage by your "average Redditor."

  • If Huffman came out and said this was a revenue move right off would everyone be as upset as they are? Are people upset because Huffman completely mishandled the move or because they got their ad free experience turned off? If Reddit had an app the same quality as Apollo only with ads, would they be OK with it. I've only used Apollo so I can't speak to the other apps.

    The initial spark definitely came from Reddit's clear backstabbing of 3rd party developers with the API change. There was no attempt to work with developers, just to remove them indirectly.

    This being particularly bad when 3rd party developers were basically holding up most power-users, most moderators, and basically anybody who actually needed accessibility features (seems like Reddit's never heard of blind people by the way they made their app).

    When you combine that with the catastrophic mishandling of the situation with that incredibly awkward AMA, the internal leaks, and the accusations towards Apollo Dev, it made it incredibly obvious that Reddit wasn't acting in good faith...

    That's really what started the shit storm that's still raging now with the blackouts, subs and mods being blackmailed, subs converting to NSFW, the John Oliver stuff. It's all because of how badly Reddit mishandled the situation. It's almost like they forgot their website is mostly ran by the same volunteers they were screwing over.

    However, I think you are right to an extent that if Reddit had taken the time to add accessibility and moderation features into their apps, and just improved the interface in general instead of just focusing on sucking the most money and telemetry out of their audience possible, then things would never have advanced as far as they did...

    But I also think that's one mighty big "what if" because if they would have had the foresight to do any of that, they would've had the foresight to not mishandle everything else as badly as they did either.

  • It's not about the spoken message but just the "our way or the highway" attitude and blatant gaslighting. If I had wanted that I would have stayed with my ex.

    I'm perfectly ok with paying to get rid of ads. I've had Reddit Premium. I use YT Premium. I have Spotify Premium (for free with my phoneplan). I pay for Twitch Turbo. All stuff I use a lot and for me worth the price to have them ad-free.

  • For me it wasn’t about the money, I pay for plenty of things in order to escape ads. The CEO all but came out and said that they don’t care about anything except money… That’s just business and I understand it, I don’t like it, but I understand it.

    The issue I saw was Reddit made no attempt to understand the situation third party app devs were in, or to honestly work with the devs to find an equitable solution. That much has been clear before the CEO began to gaslight both the devs and the users about it.

  • Obviously the details matter, and many things happened all at once.

    For example, the original policy was going to force out all free open source clients, and that was later retracted, but the damage to the company's reputation was already done.

    For example, clients for the visually impaired could have been set aside as a special case immediately, and they weren't, and as I understand it they still aren't.

    For example, third-party clients that don't show ads could have been blocked without restricting third party clients that assist mods.

    For example, the result of the blackout could have been some sort of sympathetic statement, but instead it was the hammer getting laid down, leading to even worse results.

    So you're a question is whether the outcome would have been different if the administrators had acted differently, and of course the answer is yes. That being said, what we've learned is that the administrators do not value the mods or the end user. All of the above issues simply don't matter to them because they don't care.

    You talked about capitalism as if it's inevitable, but you're wrong. The decision to try to make a lot of money was made, many other online services have made other decisions, and you don't get to excuse the actions of anyone in the administration on the grounds that it's just the natural consequence of capitalism.

  • I was the founder of a 73k sub API the API rules changed I used Apollo and rif the AMA came decided to protest from the 12th to the 14th came back after the day of the 14th my subscribers said shut it down. I shut it down then u/spez did that leaked memo then I decided to delete my 350k 6 years front page 5x account. It was tuff but I got kbin, Lemmy and Mastodon to help me fill the void. Yes I know I only need one account but it's a personal preference l!

  • I can’t blame reddit for wanting to be profitable,either. They just went about it in the worst, most confrontational way possible. They insulted the people who gave reddit all of its content, and alienated their core users.

    Even if Huffman had been nicer about it, though, no amount of diplomacy would make up for the fact that their API pricing is ridiculous. Nor would it make their complete inflexibility and stubbornness more palatable. The arrogance and disrespect they’ve shown is astounding. Trying to “fix” that with pretty words, but without actually changing their plans, would be like trying to polish a turd.

    I think there would still be a massive protest. The only difference would be the tone.

  • For me, it didn’t have to do with ads at all. It was about Reddit charging exorbitant fees for the APIs needed for tools required to make moderation fun enough to actually do, combined with his actions related to 3PA devs and moderators after the fact.

    Reddit could have invested in their API and made it an ad distribution platform; instead they invested in NFTs and let the API system remain a mess.

  • Didn't reddit used to be profitable? I think we should start by asking what decisions they made that reduced their profitability. Is it the video player that nobody asked for? Deciding to self-host images? Developing an app that nobody wants to use? It seems to me like they put themselves in this position.

  • Well, that might have helped, but Paint Hufferman decided to insult us all and treat us as useless, even parasitic freeloaders when WE are the ones who, in concert, built that goddamned site. He was never going to show any respect for us or what we've accomplished... to him, we're livestock. Fuck him with a hot lead pipe.

    • Lol normally i dislike making fun of people's names bc it's childish but paint hufferman made me laugh hard so i guess it'll be an exception

  • That is exactly what he said. It's just not remotely what he intended. Bad faith etc.

  • A few years ago when I could afford it I bought a lot of Reddit coins to award posts. At the end of the day, this is the thanks I get.

192 comments