1y ago

What's the "Joe Shmoe" of different cultures? Or the "John/Jane Smith"?

Explanations/etymology also appreciated!

For Joe Shmoe, it means a very average or below average person. It's a derivation of the practice of using "shm-" to dismiss something (eg "Practice shmactice. We're already perfect").

And "John Smith" is meant to be the most average name or person imaginable, so they have the "most common" (citation needed) first and last name as well.

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In Germany there is "Max Mustermann", which basically translates to Max Template-man. It's the default German name used for templates of official documents like passports and such.
- Don't forget Otto Normalverbraucher. Nobody cares about Otto Normalverbraucher.
- Don't forget his wife, Erika Mustermann, geb. (née) Gabler. She's usually the one used for passports these days. I think there's a whole Mustermann family living in these templates.
  
  Isn't it Erika Musterfrau?
- In German there are also derogatory uses for the forenames "Kevin" and "Otto" for example. Often used to depict not well educated persons that have made extremely stupid decisions/choices.
  
  As someone with a brother named Kevin, I can confirm he’s doing his part to uphold that depiction.
  
  I think this one is pretty confined to my region (southwestern USA) but we use Otto as the moniker of a generic stupid person too, but probably for a different reason: Otto is Oblivious to the Obvious
- Or for historical context: “der Deutsche Michel” - “the German Michael “

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_placeholder_names_by_language
- spoiled all the fun :)

In my country (Spanish speaking) we say "Fulano de tal" Fulano is kinda like a template name nobody really is named like that. "De tal" really means something like "from somewhere".
We dont out it on the graves, but we use it as slang for situations where we need to refer to someone generic like "imagine a fulano de tal doing xxxxxxxxxxx".
There are other names like Zutano, Mengano, etc.
Edit: My mom sometimes uses "Miguel Perez". Those 2 are very common first and last names.
- In Brazil (Portuguese speaking) we also use Fulano de tal. I didn't know it was used in other countries!
  We also "José Ninguém" and "Maria Ninguém" to mean someone who's a nobody. It literally means Joseph/Mary (very common names in Brazil) Nobody.
  
  There's also a name that expresses the same feeling of 'Joe Schmoe' in pt-br: 'Zé Roela'
  And to expand on Fulano's family, we must not forget Beltrano and Ciclano.
  
  And "Zé das Couves" (but this one is used more rarely).
- Does this came from arabic influence?
  To refer someone without a name or generic name we sometime say Fulan bin Fulan meaning someone the son of someone
  
  A lot of Spanish words and culture come from Arabic influences, the iberic peninsula was under control of arabs on the VIII century.
  
  Wow! It most certainly came from that!
  TIL, thanks! (brazilian here).
  
  Just checked in a Brazilian Portuguese real made from trees dictionary, indeed comes from arabic (indicated by the "ár fulân")
- There's something similar in Italian, Tal dei Tali. Literally something like that one of those ones

In US legal cases, "John Doe", "Jane Roe", and similar names are used for pseudonymized legal parties.
For instance, the plaintiff in the famous abortion case Roe v. Wade was one Norma McCorvey, identified as "Jane Roe".
A group of unidentified people appearing as plaintiffs or defendants may be called a group of "Does", from the name John Doe.
The words doe and roe both refer to deer, which are common wild animals in North America — and as wild animals, represent an arbitrary unspecified person. A doe is a female deer; and while "roe" can also mean fish eggs, roe deer is a common European species of deer.
- Good bot

Denmark -
Brian <- A name, but also a slur for people considered 'hillbilly'. Very frequently used against people who drive cheap tuner hatchbacks. Said cars can be referred to as Brian Cars.
Peter Jensen <- Also a name, but it's become notorious in Jutland because it feels like everyone is immediately related to someone with this exact first and last name.
- I can’t tell you how much I love that Denmark has hillbillys who drive hatchbacks and are called fuckin’ Brian as a slur.
- Interesting. In the UK (at least when I was growing up, I haven't lived there for some time) we called doing up shit cars as Barry-ing them. I know in other parts of the country they used the name Ned or Kev to refer to the people that drove those cars.
- I think more generally people use " hr. og fru Jensen" for a more exact analog of "John/Jane Smith"
  But Peter Jensen was the most common name in Denmark for many years, so you're not completely wrong.
- so what do you just go 'du er brian!' lmfao
  
  Used that way it would be " du er en Brian"

Germany uses Max/Erika Mustermann – literally Sampleman. It's used for example on official sample pictures of our IDs. Some authorities in erlin have startet to use the gender neutral name Manu Mustermann.
- That's the official version, but at least when I talk about some average dude it's way too long and artificial, I don't think the name Mustermann actually exists.
  When I think of the most common name to use in casual conversation, I'd probably go for Müller (maybe Peter? Though the first name is probably heavily generation-dependent).
  In older publication you may alse find references to "der deutsche Michel" (the german Michel, short for Michael) as a somewhat condescending reference to the average citizen who is very hesitant to adopt new concepts and tech and not always able or willing to understand complex concepts. Often used to remark that a product/idea will not have a chance on the market because "der deutsche Michel" doesn't see the pointor would never pick it up.
  Haven't seen that in a while though, I guess Germans have become more open to new stuff :)
  
  also "Otto Normalverbraucher"

We have the phrase 'every Tom, Dick and Harry' which is like that (UK)
If we're talking about a generic person it's usually Mr/s Smith or Mr/s Jones (near Wales)
- Do you have "every man and his dog"? (Same meaning as every Tom Dick or Harry")
  
  Yeah we do :)
- In Australia we have Joe Bloggs, but it sounds English. Do you have him in England?
  
  Yup, he gets everywhere

In the Philippines, it's Juan and Maria dela Cruz, although those have fallen out of use due to the popularity of Western (aka US) culture. Interesting reading about every country's own names for their everyman.

In the Netherlands there’s “Jan Modaal”, modaal (modal) referring the most commonly occurring value in or peak of a distribution. This name is used often when representing the experience of the most average Dutchman.
It’s especially often used in financial discussions and journalism, like “owning a house is getting further out of reach for Jan Modaal.”
- Which correlates nicely with the English expression "your average Joe"!
- In Belgium we mostly use Jan met de pet ("Jan with the cap")
- We also have the slur of "sjonnie en anita" when talking about lower class, anti social people, "sjonnie" being the man and "anita" the woman. Both are very common names in older generations, less common in younger generations.
  
  Would Jan Lul be relevant to this discussion?
  
  Ingrid en Henk, too, for the run of they mill boomer stereotype

In Norway we have the stereotypical Norwegians "Ola Nordmann" and "Kari Nordmann". Ola and Kari were quite common names a couple generations ago (not so common now). "Nordmann" literally translates to "Norwegian [person]", but is also a not-too-uncommon last name.
We typically talk about them if we're describing something or some situation and what the stereotypical Norwegian would do/think.
- "Nordmann" is also a german word. It means "Norseman/Northman" or "Man from the north".

In Vietnam, I think it's just most names 😂. Anh Nguyen is probably a good example. Most Vietnamese have the last name Nguyen. The national naming conventions rival that of religious families in the west. Think, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Anh, An, Thanh, and Minh. Women are the same, but named after things considered beautiful, Tuyet, Hong, Pham, Van.
Funny enough, many names aren't always gendered, so I've met a decent amount of couples with the same first and last names. An Thi Nguyen, and An Van Nguyen is a couple that comes to mind. I dont have to worry about doxxing, since I bet that exists over 1000x here.

Some others in the Anglosphere:
Fred Bloggs - no idea where it's from. Related to "bog" as in bog standard maybe?
Tom, Dick and Harry - is ages old. Even as far back as Shakespeare you can see the triplet evolving. "Tom, Dicke, and Francis" : Henry IV, Part I
- I've always heard it as Joe Bloggs. The Bloggs bot is believed to be a derivation of bloke
  
  Australian here, Joe Bloggs is very common here.

In the UK it is Joe Bloggs
- Also Fred Bloggs in Australia — maybe they’re related?

In Finnish it's Matti Meikäläinen for male and Maija Meikäläinen for woman. Matti Meikäläinen roughly translates to Matt Myself
- So that might be Matty and Miya Meiikaalayinen. Dealing with diacritics from a language that has none is a bit tricky.
  Am I even close?

In Norway we have “Ola Nordmann” and “Kari Nordmann”. Ola and Kari are pretty common and generic names. Nordmann literally means Norwegian, but can also be used as a last name.

In the UK for a random guy it's usually Joe Bloggs.

Flemish talking part of Belgium it is Jan Janssen

In Israel it's Plony Almony. Idk why. But it's fun to say

Sweden: Svensson, although the most common surname is Andersson.
Specifically for Gothenburg - Glenn "everybody is called Glenn in Gothenburg", or older use - Kålle (male) and Ada (female). Not used that often.

France: Martin Dupont
But I prefer Dominique Dupont as the first name is both for men and women.
- I remember, in this movie Inglorious Basterds, the woman and her family were called Dupont aswell

In Italy the template names are "Tizio", "Caio" and "Sempronio" whose origin dates back to the Middle Ages when they were used in legal cases as default names, probably inspired to the Gracchi roman family (Tiberius Sempronius Gracchus and Gaius Sempronius Gracchus). Another common name often used in examples is "Mario Rossi".
- All correct! But don't forget our friend "Pinco Pallo"! 😉
  
  And Tal dei Tali and Vattelapesca

Not to stifle further discussion, but this Wikipedia page has a wealth of examples
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_placeholder_names_by_language
- The examples for places was interesting.
  We have "Eketahuna" (meaning, a small town, middle of nowhere). Eketahuna is a real place ha ha.
  We have "Waikikamukau" which is a fictional small town. In bad pakeha pronunciation accent it would sound like "why kick a moo cow").
  (Aotearoa/NZ)
- Amazing, Ive been learning German for 8 years and just had a great laugh!
- I'd attest to that Juan de la Cruz for the most generic Filipino name. de la Cruz still works as a very common surname though I don't think Juan is still used as much as back then.
  And then there are the placeholder phrases, all of which I've heard and used.
  Uy, ku'nin mo ang ano, yung kuan, iyon! Ay, ano nga ba ang tawag d'yan? Noong ninety kopong-kopong pa namin binili iyan kina ano... Ano nga ba'ng pangalan niya?

Cantonese: 陳大文 (can4 daai6 man4) Japanese: 山田太郎 (yamada taro)
- Hahaha yes! I knew I would find a Taro in here. I am not sure what the female version would be. Hina? Haru?

Japan, you usually use "Taro Tanaka" as the goto placeholder name. Tanaka is a very common surname here and it's super easy to write as well (田中). Sato is actually the most common but also a lot harder to write (佐藤). Tanaka is also a very "working class" name, it litearlly means "in the rice field" and most likely comes from families with a background of rice farmers. Taro also a very common given name; there have been quite a few Taro Tanakas throughout history despite being the placeholder name on most forms and the like. Taro, incidentally means "Big/Strong Son".
I am not sure offhand of a female equilvalent, it's usually Taro as the placeholder.
- Along with Tanaka, Yamada (山田) is also often used as a placeholder surname. It's a comparably common name that's also simple to read and write.
  As for female placeholder given names, IMO the closest equivalent to Taro would probably be Hanako (花子). I've seen adverts that show sample credit cards or forms bearing these names.
  For example, an ad for a Toyota financing promotion might feature the name Toyota Taro on the sample application form. Or in a Mitsubishi UFJ credit card ad, the happy-looking lady in the ad will be using a credit card that bears the name Mitsubishi Hanako.

In the Netherlands, it's either "Jan Smit" (both a very common first and last name, but also a local celebrity's name) or "Henk de Vries" which IIRC is the most common name here.
I also vaguely remember some old Dutch forum naming everyone Henk de Vries by default.

The "John Smith" in Chinese is 王小明 (pinyin: wang2 xiao3 ming2), the 王 being the family name and 小明 being the given name. The 王 is a very common family name (like Smith), 小, small, is a diminutive prefix often added to nicknames, and 明, bright, is a commonly used character in given name. I should note that this is only used for males and there isn't really a "Jane Smith" for females.

Jhojho Aboolafya in everywhere in the Middle East I've been.
- Can you write it in arabic
  انا مش فاهم اه ده
  جوجه ابولافيا
  
  Wish I could, but alas, I cannot.
  I used to travel to the region, but never picked up any of many languages. Not for lack of trying, though. My brain, as I've learned, does not pick up languages easily at all.

In Poland typically, both officially and informally, one says N. N. (Latin nomen nescio, identity unknown).
- What the hell, dude? No one says that. Aren't you thinking of a John Doe?
  Polish "John Smith" would be "Jan Kowalski". It is used to refer to an average citizen and also literally means "John Smith".
  
  Fair point, I assumed OP meant people of indeterminate identity. Jan Kowalski is indeed the goto placeholder name.

Back in the day on an old imageboard we used to call anonymous users "Chopped Liver"

In Arabic its “فلان الفلاني" “fulan al-fulany”, which roughly translates to “someone from some family”

Hm, well about 40% of our population is named Nguyễn. I don't think there's an equivalent expression, but I'd choose Anh Nguyễn. In addition to being a name for both genders, 'Anh' just means something like 'sir' or 'older brother'.

In Spain we use "Fulano de Tal". It seems Fulano comes from the arabic language, meaning "Anybody". We use it when we don't the name of a person we are talking about, or we really don't care to know the name. Apart of Fulano, we also use Mengano.
Fulano/Mengano for men, Fulana/Mengana for women.
I guess our John/Jane Smith would be Pepe/Pepa García.

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