1mo ago

Politics venn

316 comments

we like guns?
- Most leftists, generally yes.
  Doesn't mean they like US style gun culture or obsessed with them. But the system leftists oppose is armed and has/will use those arms upon leftists that gain any significant amount of power.
  Arm the oppressed.
  
  We also know the difference between liberals and conservatives.
  Liberals are formerly conservatives. Conservatives are now extremist/fascists.
- Honestly, the "likes guns" part doesn't work anywhere outside the US, if that. And that includes conservatives.
  Internationally I'm pretty sure "hates Trump" would absolutely be in the center, too.
  
  "Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary" - Karl Marx
  
  Im not sure about your experience, but Trump is liked by a lot of people i have seen in Romania
- A fascist has a gun and your minority neighbor doesn't. The fascist will get their gun illegally if necessary to spread fascism. Do you trust law enforcement to be the shield for minorities against gun-wielding fascists?
- Kinda have to, since none of the "leftist" ideologies has any chance of hell of being bought into action without revolution.
  Since revolution requires some degree of violence, and established states have access to not just man portable firearms, but bigger guns as well, then attempting to use violence to change said state without access to firearms is what you might call dumb. You might call it suicidal. You might call it a form of Darwinism whereby the truly stupid leftists get killed off by whatever government they're going at so that the non-stupid leftists that are left breed smarter babies that will then realize that without equal access to arms, no populace can revolt.
  I guess you don't have to like guns. It is possible to dislike something immensely and still use it as a tool. Like toothpaste. It tastes weird, it's not fun to use, but without it, you have no teeth eventually. Guns are like toothpaste, your squeeze them and weird things come out, but at least your teeth are clean.
  
  To make a revolution you need the people on your side, not guns specifically. The bastille was torn down by hand. Just look at the USA 6 jan. They didn't need guns, and thats fu-king USA!
  If you needed guns to make a revolution, you'd probably need RPGs and tanks too.
  
  Did a gun company write this? 🤣
- As a leftist who grew up with guns, I'm neutral on guns. individual gun ownership is historically meaningless. Only organized defense and resistance stands a chance against state violence. Our hobbies and consumer identities aren't radical, and political struggle, which will need to be defended by organized armed resistance, is the only way to get to socialism, unless you're a fan of that lib Stalin.
  
  Well... recently some guy (definetly Hunter Biden and no-one else) hurt someone else real bad. now a lot of 'murricans are suddenly able to get treatment for things, where they previously couldn't. So there is a possibility for limited change through single people with single weapons.
  Though on the other hand, there previously was a daily quota of two americans being able to be shot, whithout anyone being interested even a slight bit.
- One of the most settled questions on the Left that applies to both Marxists and Anarchists is the belief that Revolution is necessary and Reform does not work.
- If you don't then you're a class traitor and I hate you furiously and I'm now going to split off and start my own party for us true lefties!
  /s
- Depends on the circumstance...
- guns are a beautiful opinion enhancer.

I like any political map that triangulates liberals from the left and right.
And I love any one that properly omits libertarians.
- I am getting more and more confused.
  Liberty ≈ Freedom.
  Liberal is someone beliveing in something adjacent to freedom. Libertarian is someone believing in something adjecent to freedom.
  But I only hear bad things about liberals, alright I already knew 'Merricans are stupid, they get angry about a word while not even being autistic. But I also somethymes hear about libertarians. what the fuck is that supposed to be, especially compared to its namely cousin?
  Well I know I'm not being entirely fair to the poor, old 'Murricans, there surely is something they all know about their system, that has not yet reached me. Still calling someone by one of your core tenets ('Murrica, land of the free, home to lady liberty...) and believing that to be an unterstandible slur sure is weird.
  
  Sorry, Bud. The names are mostly just advertisements and not necessarily useful for understanding the underlying philosophy.
  American Liberalism (capital 'L') is fluid over time at best in its philosophy, and is actively shifting to further elitist interests from a less charitable perspective. It often prioritises corporations over people and cherry picks which cases of violence are or aren't acceptable by the state.
  American Libertarianism (again, capital 'L') is Anarcho-capitalism, which believes the world would be a better place if the state was bordering on non-existent, and companies were allowed to operate completely unregulated.
  
  Libertarian has two different meanings, depending on who you talk two.
  In the modern day, and unless they qualify it, "libertarianism = anarcho-capitalism".
  Classical libertarianism (sometimes left libertarianism, or libertarian socialism) is more akin to anarcho-syndicalism. Advocacy for ownership of the means of production via trade unions and the like, with the goal of obsoleting the state and capitalism, that kinda thing.
  EDIT: Also, capital-L "Liberalism" in the US is more than a little bit of a departure from liberalism. It's mostly evolved into a meaningless pejorative the far right uses against the center-left (and when I say that, I'm talking about center-left from an American perspective, so really more center-right)
  
  Jesse...

Leftist here: I swear to fuck if I hear one more Tankie put a "Trump winning is actually a good thing because Kamela's literally the same person as Trump" card on the table with a "Actually North Korea is this amazing paradise and EVERYONE ON THE FUCKING PLANET is just pretending it's awful. Source: Trust me bro!" stat booster
So help me God I will.... Roll my eyes and drown my sorrows in another round of Dead By Daylight where I hope to find a Joshua in the lobby because I'm a Killer Main...
Seriously, why can't we have unity like the Rightists do? I mean they just point and say "Look! It's a gay!", they all form in a line.
If I point and say "Look! It's a fascist!", the whole squad starts pointing at each other and somehow I'm "cancelled for being a rape apologist" because the way I pointed was actually a dog whistle because it vaguely resembled the ancient Anti-Black symbol called "Ligma" popularized in the year 19Dickety2 in response to white men being annoyed that black people could afford chewing gum or something... Which obviously everyone totally knows is a real thing!
I just want us to ya know, save the fucking world from Neolibs and Literal Nazis before we start doing purity tastes on each other. Like, can we wait to do the "Everyone in the group gets chronic backstab syndrome." shit AFTER we win?
I mean fuck the Deadly Alliance had the fucking patience to wait till they killed the main cast, Raiden included, before that shit.. and they're literally Shang Tsung and Quan Chi, the exact two people I expect to constantly lose Among Us by reporting each other when they're both the Imposter! In a SELF-REPORT! Because I'm reliving all of my negative experiences with other socialists, and when I'm angry I try to make the nerdiest references I can make while still ensuring there's a chance for others to get them.
starts frothing, dies of self-inflicted rabies
- I haven't seen anyone say Trump winning is a good thing, nor have I seen anyone say the DPRK is a paradise (closest to that is people saying the DPRK has living standards around the level of Cuba these days). Where are you finding these people at significant enough numbers to cause you anguish? Legitimate question here, you're calling for Left Unity but it seems like you're misframing others at best, which goes against that ideal.
  
  I will admit that I'm exaggerating out of frustration, but the idea that North Korea is "Actually a real nice place to live, preferable to America in some respects" is one I hear a lot (I do hear about China being a paradise)
  And for the record I was kicked out of my local Socialist Chapter for refusing to endorse a Green Party Candidate who was openly transphobic and talking about nixing expanding healthcare access in favor of just "curing autism with crystals", the head of which responded to by calling me a rape apologist, which doesn't make any sense. (Also a white cisguy calling a transgirl a "Rape Apologist" for not going along with transphobia and ableism is sus)
  I was hardly the only nay-sayer, he got a lot of backlash for supporting this person, but the fact that I wouldn't play ball with one of my oppressors seemed to really piss in this guy's cornflakes.
  Wasn't the only odd thing about the guy, he actually condemened Bernie during the 2020 primaries, citing a "Refusal to advocate for violence against the police" as "Proof that he just doesn't care!", when that was never a realistic thing to expect a candidate to do.
  So I have dealt with a lot of crazy unreasonable types "on the front lines" so to speak.
  Also I sadly have dealt with a lot of "Even though it means letting Trump win, we can't lift a finger to help Biden/Hillary/Kamela because they're literally not as bad as Trump on this one issue."
  My point still remains, can we please just focus on actually being productive before we turn on each other?
  
  Don't be obtuse, he was obviously being hyperbolic.
- i dunno friend, purity tastes sound pretty fun to me
- So what's Dead by Daylight about? Also any decentl places I could watch it without spending much?
  
  Sorry if I didn't make it clear. Dead By Daylight is a multiplayer horror game famous for its surprisingly deep story and for including crossover elements.
  5 Players enter a match. 1 Killer (Which can be an original character made for DBD like Deathslinger or The Nurse, or a character from a famous game or movie such as Freddy Krueger from Nightmare on Elm Street or Nemesis from Resident Evil) who hunts down the other four, and the other four are various survivors who must find a way to escape the map before being murdered to death by the killer.
  As a Killer Main, I typically opt for the Killer Role and only play as a Survivor every now and then.
  The game typically goes for 20 dollars on Steam, but is typically sold for 7 during sales.
  Though it's one of those dealies where if you're there for the crossover content, you'll need to pay real money.

I would heap written abuse upon you, but it's true

Wait, why do leftists hate leftists?
- It's a joke, but "leftist" is such a wide term that it encompasses groups which don't really want to do much with each other, such as anarchists, bernie-bros, and _{red fash} _tankies marxist-leninists. Anarchists tend to not hate anarchists for example.
  
  No I don't disagree with you! But you are still somewhat wrong! Hey social traitor, I'm splitting and creating my own leftist memes! These will be actual trotskyist memes, unlike your bourgeoisie-tainted memes!
  rinse and repeat
  
  Here we go again, an anarchist calling Marxists leninists "red fash". What country destroyed Nazism, please remind us.
  
  It's almost as if ideology is just some made up bullshit.
- Most conservatives are able to band together regardless of whether another of them is too racist, or too capitalist. They're able to look past flaws in that regard.
  Meanwhile, we lefties fight among ourselves for not being left enough, or for being too left. It's why there are very few leftist governments.
  
  Nonsense. conservatives inflight and even kill each other all the fucking time. This is a myth promoted by "left unity" leftists, and "big tent" libs to force everyone to follow them.
- Judean People's Front
  
  SPLITTERS
- Have you never met leftists?
  
  dern leftists… ruinin' the left
  
  Leftists. What a bunch of bastards.
- It is very easy for people without a credible shred of leftist thought to claim to be a leftist.
  Challenging those people winds up being an example of 'leftist infighting'.
  
  So... a leftist and a tankie pretending to be a leftist, in a argument, basically...

As a leftist... I can't say I see a flaw here.
- As a leftist, I resent that
  
  Hey, fuck you, buddy!
  See you at the next meeting.

What do liberals like?
I'm only told what they dislike. I even know what conservatives like, that's an easy answer. Liberals, I haven't a clue.
- Given their recent electoral strategies, they mostly expect to be elected for not being Trump/conservative.
  
  It's an effective strategy, up to a point. "Vote for me because I'm not the guy you hate" is one of the oldest political strategies around. And Democrats have even openly said that they've been funding the most extremist right-wing candidates on the ballot for years to set up easy wins when people think their opponent is a nutjob. There was a lady who even wrote a book about how she won an election doing this. And then she lost to that same extremist in the very next election. Because what they've actually done is push the Overton Window further and further into extremism.
  
  Ah, the leftist strategy, very bold.
- They like progress that happened in the past, and they like stories about that progress where an individual, not a movement, fought for what was right and the individuals in charge of the system, now aware that it was hurting people, changed voluntarily without political struggle or mass organizing.
  They like voting in parliamentary representative elections, even if every step of that election is rigged to benefit the rich capitalist class, in fact this is the only kind of democracy they like.
  They like the feeling that words like freedom, justice, liberty bring. They like ideals, in fact they are total idealists who dont understand that progress should be based on more than ideas. Change does begin with an idea, but so does reaction.
  They like to believe that there is no such thing as class.
  They like experts and repeating the opinions of experts, and they like to not think about from what institutions and incentives exist to bestow expertise.
- Liberals like good government.
  Both conservatives and leftists believe the government is fundamentally flawed. People keep electing conservatives who sabotage the government to prove it's flawed (but not in a way that would negatively effect them and their friends). Young people support leftism at protests (which are really just social get togethers) until they grow out of it and vote for conservatives because they continue to believe the government is flawed. Or maybe refuse to participate in a system because it's not perfect.
  If a liberal admits there's flaws to the system which they want to fix, they are blamed for it because they failed to provide good government. The fact that liberals aren't in power long enough to make the government better doesn't matter. They're considered failures if conservatives prevent them from providing good government.
  So people vote for the conservatives to run the government because they succeed in preventing liberals from making the government good.
  
  You know the craziest part about all this is that I've been given about three contradictory definitions on what a liberal is, and not one person has claimed to be one.
  I'd consider that "Lemmy 101" if the subject was conservatives. They'd never know to come here to begin with, but liberals?
  Shouldn't this thread be full of infighting and opinions?
  ...where are they? Is this something no one wants to be?
- At a Systemic level hey're big fans of the only true Power being Money whilst the Vote is nothing more than a bit of loud Theatre & Clown Show that doesn't actually control the managing of a country - or in other words, of Oligarchy rather than Democracy.
  At a personal level they're big fans of personal upside maximization with no legal, ethical or moral limits, aka Greed Is Good, or in other words, for sociopathy to be totally legal, socially aceptable and even celebrated.
- Whatever conservatives like, but less of it.

Both liberals and conservatives are right wing (capitalists).
- fiscally that might be true kind of but socially in Canada that is far from true.
- Leftists are capitalists too, they just know that strong social safety nets are required to keep the ball in play instead of letting the billionaires take it home with them.
  
  Those are Social Democrats, a subcategory of liberal.
  
  Leftists are capitalists too,
  Not all leftists are capitalists. That's absurd. Socialism is a left-wing ideology.
  
  No, you are clearly not a leftist. Everyone should get a ball, or at least be communally shared. If we seize the means of ball production we can **** CEOs without worrying about going ball-less.

Leftists hate themselves?
- Leftists ruined leftism
- Leftists necessarily fall into different ideological frameworks and camps, like Anarchism and Marxism, because they oppose the existing order. These camps often have fundamental disagreements, such as Marxists supporting full Public Ownership and Central Planning while Anarchists support full Horizontalism and Decentralization.
  Right-wingers get by on having irrational, contradictory stances of loose structure because it fundamentally doesn't matter, right wing ideology is the Global Hegemon and status quo so it supports itself regardless of rationality.
  
  I get it... the People's Front of Judea vs the fucking Judean People's Front.
- Search your feelings you know it to be true
- No just each other

I like guns and some parts of capitalism, I like some ideas from the ML people and anarchists. The complete evolution of human thought and philosophy is worthy of consideration without bias or prejudice.
Addendum not racial supremacy, though
- I'd argue that's worth consideration in the context of a history class.

I hate all you dick licks.
- Aw. I hate you too. ♥️
- Hate u more, babe 😘
  
  Awwwwww, that is so nice.

As a Leftist there are a few types of leftists I hate
Fake Leftists: People who think Socialism is when "government does stuff" and they just want the government to do everything
Ignorant Leftists: People who blindly hate capitalism but make no real attempt to look into leftist theory
"Anti-imperalists": People who support "anti-imperialism" by supporting the other empire. These people will blindly support Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, the Taliban, Assad's Syria, HTS, and occasionally blatant terrorism.
Aesthetic "Leftists": People who see leftism as nothing more than an aesthetic which they can use. They make no real attempt to understand leftism but rather then simply being ignorent they actively attempt to subvert the term. These people will say "leftism just means left of center" and use that to justify Capitalism, western imperialism, and other very non leftist ideals under the justification that "leftism has no hard definition" (it does).
- Aesthetic “Leftists”
  Absolutely infuriating. These are people who spend a lot of time on discord, closely nurturing a group of diverse people of specific ethnic or gender/sexual identities because it makes them feel very progressive but makes no effort to see their "friends" as humans and won't hold them accountable when any of them become abusive or hassle other friends in the group. These are the college-kids who will commit all their energy to fighting a school-mascot which bothers nobody, while literal nazis march on another part of the campus. These are the ones who create campaigns to "take down" another popular leftist for saying something like the word "removed" while actual threats to humanity rise in power. And generally just find it a lot easier to attack people ostensibly on their side than the actual challenge of fighting for actual community organization efforts against a rising tide of fascism and hate.
  For these kids being progressive or leftist is entirely about preserving an in-club of specific people who can hate outsiders, but they feel they have a broader societal blessing for the exclusionary and wildly performative attitudes.
  
  for saying something like the word "removed" while actual threats to humanity rise in power
  That one is such a sad phenomenon. I recently saw it in a community I'm in: "Crazy". If the word was once derogatory towards a group of people, I'd say it has long since lost its teeth, while the stigma it used to express continues to exist independently of individual words. Words have power, but fighting words is useless if the power goes unchecked and self-destructive if other, worse powers grow while you're distracted.
  That's not to say you shouldn't be mindful with your language, but maybe focus on the bigger issue first. I'm personally not a fan of people casually calling things autistic that aren't, because I'm autistic and my need for clear, unambiguous language compels me to have certain specific terms keep their specific meaning. If you misuse it, I might bring it up (as a personal opinion type thing, I'm just as prone to error or misunderstandings as anyone else), but I wouldn't attempt to "take you down" or anything over it while we're both fighting people that do worse than just misuse language.
- the worst by any margin are the leftist gatekeepers ! I hate those guys, they're not real leftists
- Damn leftists, they ruined leftism
  Jokes apart, language is an important tool to express thoughs and persuade people what is better or worse. And when so many concepts get conflated in a single word "leftist"/"leftism" /"socialism"/"communism" , it diminishes the focus of conversations around it. It confuses and distracts from the ideas worth discussing.
  this is a way to confuse, divide and defeat the healthy expression of ideas, debate, and by consequence, the capability of people to organize around the ideas that resonate with then.
- supporting the other empire [...] Cuba, Venezuela
  Tell me you don't understand imperialism without telling me you don't understand imperialism (especially funny coming from someone criticising people who don't read theory). Cuba is possibly the most peaceful nation on Earth, with the core of its international policy usually being sending doctors to countries in need. Please tell me a single imperialist act by Cuba or Venezuela.
  Critical support to flawed countries is a sad consequence of Realpolitik. Do you support England and the USSR joining forces against Nazism in World War 2? Because they're otherwise geopolitical enemies that only joined the effort because there was a greater evil.
  
  Cuba is possibly the most peaceful country on Earth
  Yup, they're so incredibly peaceful that they have an entire Wikipedia article deticated to their foreign military interventions

American leftists, perhaps. The vast majority of the developed world wants nothing to do with guns, on either side.
Even then, I don't think that this is necessarily true. I'd probably swap that part with free healthcare, as it's something that's equally true across the world.
- Most of the Western World doesn't have a meaningful Leftist movement

I just want to live on mountain, make LSD and moonshine, and tweek out playing video games where you build shit.
But someone says they "own" the mountain. How do you own a mountain? They didn't build it. They were forced to be born on this planet just like me. Just another human full of blood and made of meat.
So I guess I'm stuck in this basement instead, forced to live in this "civilization". Doesn't seem very civilized to me that's for sure.
Maybe next life.

whats a leftist who doesn't want guns to be legal for citizens and only for military and police? I don't like capitalism.
- doesn't like capitalism
  only wants state enforcers of capitalism to be armed
  I think that makes you inconsistent
  
  I presume in his ideal country there is no capitalism, and as such state enforcers don't enforce capitalism, but enforce whatever he is thinking of
  
  I don't see how law enforcement and profit driven market are inseparable concepts.
  
  well you need the police to enforce the law. how can you have a country without laws?
- How do you plan on ending Capitalism without revolution?
  
  Purchase goods from employee owned entities. Support financial transitions away from shareholder owned entities to employee owned entities.
  
  no clue, but i am a pacifist. I'd only go to war if my country was being invaded.
- Impotent. You reject economic and lethal power, and what you you have left to defend your rights? Hopes and dreams don't have any teeth.
  
  naw it works thanks for checking though!
- Someone who only likes to lick left boots?
- a leftist with LRC
- Starts with "T" and rimes with hankie.
  
  "Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary."
  -Karl Marx
  Where are these anti-gun Marxists?

Truth

Trump is not a conservative. Fascists and reactionaries are not conservatives. Far right is not the right, eventhough the right did sliped into far right because of the liberals.
- The right slipped into the far right because of the far right. Don't blame anyone but them for their actions
  
  The Democrats did spend years funding the most extremist opponents in their elections to set up easy wins for themselves. A lady even wrote a book about how she won her election this way.
  And then she lost to that extremist the very next election.
  
  I blame the liberals because they had the power for decades and they are actively supporting the fascists in order to fight the left. They are responsible.
  But as always liberals will always, always pretend nothing is their fault. They took all the decisions for a century, but somehow they shouldn't be accountable for the problems they brought on the world. They're spoiled children if you ask me.
- Trump campaigning on conservative values is like Harris campaigning on wealth inequality.
  Instead we got "fuck immigrants" and "gay rights".
  
  Don't you mean "fuck immigrants and gay rights" from both candidates?

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