Umm I think I'll just delete you instead
Umm I think I'll just delete you instead
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179 comments
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So we want free apps that offer everything and don't take your data or advertise. It must also have constant security updates and a fleet of developers keeping it running. Good Luck finding that unicorn.
I actually like this development. I'd much rather pay for a service with money over my privacy.
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Signal literally exists. Free.
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It’s only free because they’re trusting users to donate. That method of generating income for their developers could stop working at any time. Lots of FLOSS projects struggle to find kosher funding.
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Come on dog this is literally just 'yeah well what if we imagine a hypothetical world where MY argument is right, how about that?'
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Large open source projects like Signal don't really rely on individual donations, but instead survive off wealthy supporters or sponsors.
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It’s only free because they’re trusting users to donate.
No, they sell their technology to Meta and Microsoft. WhatApp's encrypted protocol that was rolled out several years ago is Signal's. That's also why Signal will never match all features of those messengers. They cannot drive WhatsApp and such out of business because that would mean Signal is out of business.
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No. Everyone can use Signal technology for free in their own products. They are not selling it to anyone. Yes, some time ago moxie helped to integrate their encryption algorithm in WhatsApp and that's that. Very likely that he / the foundation got paid for that service, but it's not like Signal is funded by selling their technology to anyone. And for sure it's not like they can't match WhatsApp features because then WhatsApp would go down the river and they run out of funding...
I don't know what to say but stuff like this makes me kinda angry. You read about moxie helping implement their encryption in WhatsApp at one point, and then came up with this story that Signal is somehow mainly funded by meta and Microsoft and can't compete with their products because it would put ms and meta out of business and endanger their own funding this way. Like, please don't make up stories like that, OK? It's not a nice thing to do.
If you are really interested here are some actual facts on the matter:
On February 21, 2018, Moxie Marlinspike and WhatsApp co-founder Brian Acton announced the formation of the Signal Foundation, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. The foundation was started with an initial $50 million loan from Acton, who had left WhatsApp's parent company, Facebook, in September 2017. The Freedom of the Press Foundation had previously served as the Signal project's fiscal sponsor and continued to accept donations on behalf of the project while the foundation's non-profit status was pending. By the end of 2018, the loan had increased to $105,000,400, which is due to be repaid on February 28, 2068. The loan is unsecured and at 0% interest.
Source: wiki. Took me five seconds to google that. Again please don't spread made up stories, thanks.
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No. Everyone can use Signal technology for free in their own products. They are not selling it to anyone.
Everyone can use the AGPL version but they also sell proprietary versions to customers.
I don’t know what to say but stuff like this makes me kinda angry.
You are angry because I read official Signal announcements and documents that clearly says that Signal / Open Whisper Foundation is working with commercial partners?
You read about moxie helping implement their encryption in WhatsApp at one point
"To amplify the impact and scope of private communication, we also collaborate with other popular messaging apps like WhatsApp, Google Allo, and now Facebook Messenger to help integrate Signal Protocol into those products." -- https://signal.org/blog/facebook-messenger/
"In collaboration with Signal, Microsoft is introducing a Private Conversations feature in Skype, powered by Signal Protocol." --https://signal.org/blog/skype-partnership/
Those commercial partners don't need to comply with the AGPL and release their entire app source code under AGPL as well because: "You hereby grant to Open Whisper Systems and to recipients of software distributed by Signal Messenger a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable copyright license to reproduce, prepare derivative works of, publicly display, publicly perform, and distribute Your Contributions and such derivative works, as well as the right to sublicense and have sublicensed all of the foregoing rights, through multiple tiers of sublicensees, provided that in all cases, Signal Messenger will make Your Contributions available under an OSI-approved open source license." --https://signal.org/cla/
In case you don't understand the Signal CLA: While contributions from outside participants will be open sourced, Signal has any right to make and sell proprietary versions.
Non-profit open source foundations with commercial offshoots are completely normal. For a somewhat similar case but without the CLA see Mozilla Foundation and Mozilla Corporation.
Source: wiki. Took me five seconds to google that. Again please don’t spread made up stories, thanks.
Luckily, everything I wrote is the truth. Too bad you only googled for 5 seconds and not 30. Please read linked official Signal documents/announcements carefully and calm down. Thanks.
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You shifted your goalposts from "they're working together so they can't compete because (somehow) that'd drive them out of business" to "they've cooperated with other companies to make their services more secure" and are somehow acting like you were right.
First, isn't it good for them to work with other companies to improve other services? Doesn't that help more people?
Second, there's no fucking way they'd drive Google and Facebook out of business just by offering a superior service. Even if they did, wouldn't that be good for them? How did you even come to that idea in the first place?
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You shifted your goalposts from “they’re working together so they can’t compete because (somehow) that’d drive them out of business” to “they’ve cooperated with other companies to make their services more secure” and are somehow acting like you were right.
I see you're new to PR speak. If Signal's commercial cooperation was solely "to improve other services", all Signal code would be BSD-licensed and available for free to incorporate into any proprietary service, not AGPL + CLA with sublicensing clause. That's not shifting any goalposts, that's basic comprehension of PR speak and what such licensing models are for. Signal is working with Facebook/Meta, Microsoft, and in the past also Google when Allo was still a thing.
Second, there’s no fucking way they’d drive Google and Facebook out of business just by offering a superior service. Even if they did, wouldn’t that be good for them? How did you even come to that idea in the first place?
Not Google or Facebook as whole but their chat services. Those companies would have absolutely no incentive to pay Signal money for proprietary licenses. Google Allo is already dead, so Google is not paying any longer, unless Signal tech is incorporated into another product.
Dual-licensing with a CLA is nothing uncommon, neither is a non-profit being attached to a for-profit.
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Signal literally exists. Free.
Signal has fewer features than non-premium Telegram. Both are open source, neither can be used with alternative servers (unlike Matrix).
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Signal is peer to peer no?
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It is not
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Signal uses donations to keep running. That's one of the reasons why they don't need to do this kind of crap. Kinda like Firefox.
It's sad to see that slowly but surely the Internet gets divided into the more and more useless giant sector and the free and open sector, which just doesn't get the attention it needs to be attractive enough for most to switch over. And then there's also this weird shadow area where I often hear those pirate chanties from...
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Firefox wants to rely on donations but in reality 90% of their funding comes from an advertising company.
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Damn, I didn't know that. Now I'm sad.
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Talk to anyone who works for a nonprofit. It’s really hard to find enough donors sometimes. You end up relying on a few really rich people because most of the community can only donate a couple bucks.
If every Firefox user donated $4 per year they’d be a billion dollar company and wouldn’t need Google’s deal
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That's just sad. I hope my ~20$ a year that I donate to a few of my most needed OSS-projects are helping somewhat.
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Google they mean
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Firefox doesn't even accept donations. Mozilla Foundation does, which is a related nonprofit, but it crucially does not fund any firefox development and legally cannot do so.
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What, related nonprofit that can not legally fund Firefox development? What are you talking about? It's literally developed by them.
Mozilla Firefox, or simply Firefox, is a free and open-source web browser developed by the Mozilla Foundation and its subsidiary, the Mozilla Corporation.
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Yeah, you should look up what Mozilla Corporation is and who employs those Firefox developers.
Mozilla Foundation owns the trademarks and runs the infrastructure. Firefox developers are employed by for-profit Mozilla Corporation.
PS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_Wikipedia
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Yep... And you can't donate to Firefox development. You'll only fund the nonprofit and its goals, the money doesn't go to Mozilla Corporation who do the actual development.
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And almost no firefox user wants to admit that, among the other things Firefox is flawed for. But, "IT'S NOT GOOGLE" is their only rationale.
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Not being chromium based is quite a big deal, however.
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Sounds like the best open source projects out there. How bout we use our tax money to fund great free software for everybody?
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People like you are really good for my business and I love it. Thank you🥰
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179 comments