No sex. No dating. No marriage. No children. Interest grows in 4B movement to swear off men

“Young men expect sex, but they also want us to not be able to have access to abortion,” Thomas told The Post. “They can’t have both. Young women don’t want to be intimate with men who don’t fight for women’s rights; it’s showing they don’t respect us.”
Sounds reasonable and fair to me.
- In over 50% of America's land area Rapists get to pick the mother of their child.
  Flee red states.
  The only why they'll learn is if the rational people leave. The whole fill strategy will never work because red states need you more than you need them.
  Flee red states!
  Project 2025 advocates for tracking of child barring age women and girls. They will turn you into brood sows the moment they get a chance and justify it as the moral good.
  Flee red states!
  Blue states aren't perfect but we at least know what freedom is and don't need a 2000 yeast old book to decide what we should do next.
  
  Fleeing my state isn't an option. Besides, my state didn't used to be red. A lot of states flipped or at least went from purple to red. So it's not even a guarantee if you uproot your entire family and life that you get to stay blue.
  I feel so demoralized when this comes up, as if it's my own fault I'm living somewhere with terrible laws. I voted. I got other people to vote. I changed a few minds on abortion (not easy to do!). I don't have the money or resources to start somewhere else, and we're all about to have less money.
- An awful lot of generalizing there.
  
  I don't think anyone involved thinks she's talking about every single young man. Well, except you, of course
  
  It doesn’t seem generalized at all to me.
  A series of laws are passed that make this thing riskier.
  Do less of the risky thing.
  Make it clear why.
  What’s the problem?
  
  Did the hat fit you?
  
  It's talking about people who support trump. But you can't only target them as people will just hide their political views to get laid.

Understandable.
But sweaering of ALL men is neither healthy nor realistic and the 4B movement is not really helping the issue. Plua the movement is extremely transphobic and essentialist. Its just TERFs doing a thing again...
A more practical solution: Dont date MAGA and leave them if need be. Take the children from them as well. They deserve scorn for voting in a dictator, just because they cant get laid. And they deserve to be reminded on how parhetic they are for all of it every single das until they change.
- Agreed. I also can understand the feelings behind this, but it seems to ignore that quite a number of women voted for Trump.
  
  Bingo. My wife won’t vote for a woman president because she, not me, thinks that they’re too emotional. I know a decent amount of women in the workplace that feel the same way. I voted for Kamala because Trump is a paranoid narcissist that is a thief, liar, and can’t be trusted and she was a darn sight better to keep the boat moving predictably forward.
- There's nothing inherently unhealthy about being asexual.
  
  4B isn't about asexuality, it's about abstinence. Not the same thing.
- The problem is that some men will literally tell a woman anything they want to hear until they're in bed. They will lie their ass off and avoid political discussion until after the proposal, then they'll suggest maybe she could cook a little more
- Downvoted for advocating taking men’s children away.

It's always amazing how many men out themselves in these threads. Immediately angry and defensive. There's no greater way to know that you're exactly the kind of man these women are worried about than having that reaction.
- In this thread a few people left mild and fair criticism and immediately got accused of being conservative. Some I recognized as having specifically progressive ideas in other threads.
  I think there are fair criticisms of this for sure. Saying them out loud does not mean you have anything but the opinion you say. And now watch, I'll be dog piled and accused of hating women or whatever.
  Which isn't true at all, it just seems kind of weird to deny yourself the pleasure of sex because.. I guess.. you don't trust yourself to find a man who isn't a piece of shit? Either that or you somehow believe such a person doesn't exist? The only other option is it's about being spiteful in a way that won't help anyone at all. Conservative men are already having trouble getting women and you aren't going to turn them liberal by not having sex with anyone. For this to ever work you'd need a large percentage of women to participate, which obviously isn't going to happen.
  
  Reactionaries suck and I'd hate to date one

But the large swatch of incel's that voted for Trump aren't going to be affect by this.
- They will just be able to further blame women. I’m all for that shit-show though. 🍿
  
  The good thing about incels is they won't pass on their hatred, their line dies with them.
- No, they won't. But then the men affected will complain to other single men, and those of us that agree with 4B can say "yeah, it sucks, but how many guys have you stood up to and said 'knock it off'".
  I guarantee the number is small.
- incels*

Guys always ask me how to meet women. I say, " It's easy, be polite and learn how to communicate." None of them succeed.
- Not really... from personal experience, I couldn't find a single woman to date or show interest until I was 25. I was and still am super nice and polite, apparently too much for most.
  I fully believe I am just ugly, and it is what it is. After being rejected for so long and never having the chance to have those experiences growing up, it did leave me in a bad place for a while.
  Good news is I did meet someone at 25 and we're married now over 10 years and have 2 kids. This was also right before the rise of dating apps, which I wonder what impact they would have had if given the chance to use them.
  
  Being too nice can definitely be a turn off for women, all though you're never supposed to say it, if you put them on a pedestal it can lead them to think that they can do better. I know that sounds horrible to say, but it's mostly true.
  A lot of women like "manly men", in a world where gender roles are being broken down it's another thing you're not supposed to say, but it's objectively true.
  Natural beauty is pot luck, although it's true that "ugly" guys can do a lot to scrub up and become attractive in other ways. Statistically speaking, 80% of women want the top 20% of men, from that you can extrapolate that their are a lot of people in relationships that are settling. Another harsh truth, but that's life.
  So in short, that's what happens to most of us. Women chase the top 20% which most of us aren't, then when they start getting worried about getting older and becoming a spinster, they settle. You're probably a lot less ugly than you think and a lot more normal!
- It's really not that hard, I don't get it. The only conclusion that I've been able to come to is that guys think being empathetic, polite and communicative will get them friend-zoned or something. That they have to be pushy about it or the gal will just be like, "you're such a sweet guy, I think you're a great friend". You know, friends talk, partners fuck, or something like that.
  Does anyone actually say that? I swear I've heard it or something similar before...
  ...Anyway, no, idiot, you're getting friend-zoned because they're just not into you that way. Being aggressive just gets you shut down faster too because you come off as impatient or desperate, or that you're trying to do the song and dance because you have to, not because you want to. I don't wanna be around a guy like that. That can be very concerning because it can indicate that all you want is sex and you're just trying to find the right buttons to press on the "sex machine". I get it, sometimes you just wanna fuck; but I'm a ~~dragon~~ human being, not a sex machine.
  But... If you want a reason why you shouldn't be concerned about being friend-zoned: personally I'm more likely to trust and view someone favorably if they're friends with someone I already know, or they're surrounded by people who have good things to say about them (especially if they're enbies and/or women). Doesn't mean everyone's like that, but if you have lady friends who enjoy just hanging out with you then that tells me that you're way more likely to respect me, treat me like a dra... cough human, and that I'm probably going to be safe around you. Those are good things. Those are things I need to feel before I can feel anything else. Again, I can't speak for everyone, but there's a glimpse into how my feelings seem to work, and why I don't think you really need to be scared of the "friend-zone".
  Also, when it comes to wanting to "just fuck"; I'm waaaayy more open to that idea if we're already good friends and neither of us are dating someone. Not everyone is like that, I'm probably kinda unusual in that regard, but... yeah.
  
  Well said. I never worried about the friend zone bc I made my intentions known, "I like you and I want to date." If she says she's not into me then that's it. 9/10 that women will be my "wingman" to find someone that likes me that way.
  
  There's a clear difference between showing sexual interest and being pushy that I don't think your post considers.
  If you're dating a women and don't show any signs of sexual interest she absolutely will be thinking "this guy isn't interested" and move on.
  I don't think it's surprising to say that women also are often uninterested in being friends, but it's still often an expectation that the men will make the first move.
  It's one of the fine lines and grey areas that needs to be trodden in life if you want a satisfying relationship.
- The bar is so low and yet they almost all fail. It's down right scary. Just be polite and talk like a human being. Oh, and guys, don't send the d pic unless asked. It really doesn't do what you think it does.
  
  The "bar" argument doesn't exist. Plenty of women date shit bags. lol
  
  The issue is, they go with sole intention of meeting a partner. Women rightfully have their guard up. If you just interact with someone in a hobby you both share interest in, she's more likely to be into you. But not after a fucking week for crying out loud!
  
  What? You mean that awkward pose with us choking it like "the dog having something in their mouth," isn't cool? Also me say hi then dick pic doesn't get you going?
- be polite
  oh thank god!
  Learn how to communicate
  4B doesn't sound like a bad idea to me
  
  Communicate and talk are two different things. People talk to each other to get what they want. Communication means you have to listen and give a shit. So many guys talk for 1 reason, sex. Women want sex to but don't want an asshole that treats them like shit afterwards. Some guys can't get that and think women should be blessed in their presents.
- Maybe it's you that's the issue?
  
  Also, you can get any woman with a net.

Women will continue to demand better for themselves and some men will continue to get more radicalized in retaliation until we start raising boys to be empathetic and not sexualizing them so they feel entitled to people’s bodies.
- Consent and boundaries need to be learned at an early age.
  Understanding the emotions of others, and not being at the center of every interaction.
  Understanding individual bodily autonomy, and extension of that to others.
  These all need to be passed on in early life, because they are foundational to ensuring better overall social interactions with the opposite sex, knowing the worth of oneself and others, and being respectful to everyone including oneself.
  
  I would be very interested in understanding how boys are treated differently now then when I was young (millennial here). Why are gen z men so upset?
- You know what just dawned on me
  These guys essentially want sex dolls that can do chores. Sex dolls are way cheaper to take care of and they'll learn to do chores themselves hiding it from everyone else lol
  
  Imagine a future with sex robots. Good or bad for human women?

It's a person's decision whether to have sex, get married or date someone. They don't need to justify that to anyone. No one criticizes men for choosing celibacy or choosing to remain single. But women don't have that priviledge, so they have to justify themselves and still they will recieve criticism and hate from men just for choosing to exercise their personal freedom and live their life according to their values.
- No one criticizes men for choosing celibacy or choosing to remain single.
  I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I have to take issue with this. Men do get criticized for choosing not to have sex, or choosing not to marry. A man who chooses not to have sex constantly has his manhood questioned. And any single man who has not been asked when he's gonna find a nice girl and settle down is a man without family.
- No one criticizes men for choosing celibacy or choosing to remain single.
  conservative parents enter the chat
- I, for one, criticize incels regularly
  
  But incels are involuntarily celibate (per their reasoning), even if they don't understand that they're wrong.

Typical media BS.
Found a story about a very small movement somewhere in the world than are blowing it out of proportion and saying this is actually a thing.
This is why Dems lost the election but the media thought they would win.
Fucking click bait sex sells story.

I call bullshit. Any politicaly aware liberal/progressive woman can sniff out a conservative dude 5 miles away. They ain't fucking these kinda dudes unless they actually wanna be fucking them. I just don't see it
- Yep, it also doesn't consider the 46% of women that voted for Trump or the near 50 million women that couldn't be bothered to vote at all.
  This is a minority movement that is probably not much more than ineffective virtue signalling.
  If you're wife doesn't want sex then that's usually a big problem for the relationship and could even end it. How many guys are going in to the ballot box in four years time and voting differently because they decided to get a divorce? It could possibly even entrench their views.
  I'm probably going to get bored of saying this, but people that disagree with you need to be engaged not derided.

Good for them for asserting their autonomy but basically the end affect is the opening plot of Idiocracy
- I get your point, but I wouldn't worry about what might happen in 20 years when what is currently happening is bad.
  
  Yes, women should rape themselves by having sex with men they are furious with to avoid the ending of a random documentary
  
  I get your point, but I wouldn't worry about what might happen in 20 years when what is currently happening is bad.
  Ahh, the ol' false bifurcation ostrich effect as a thought-terminating-looparoo.
  
  20 years from now is current when you’re older
- Until the loneliness of conservative men hits the breaking point.
  
  What was the 2024 election if not that?
  
  They have each other. Why does their loneliness require women?

Ill believe it when I see it, half these women have the most conservative SO you've ever met and tells them they're good people at the end of hard days. Also these particular women are transphobes, so fuck them.
- Women also voted for trump.
  But Transphobes? Really? That's where you draw the line? This is EXACTLY how the right pushed women to fight for their "identity" and turn against trans.
  If you generise them like that and try to diminish what biological woman is, you bet your ass someone will use it to turn those would would be your ally against you.

I say good for them. Go for it. Dating is too stressful for me anyway.
But I'm also a 30+ progressive with a son and ex so I also recognize that there are bigger fish to fry than getting laid.

Idgaf. Why has this story been at the top of my feed for like 4 days now?
- Seems like propaganda. More gender war bullshit. Divide, divide, divide.
- People are responding to it. Idk how you sort your feed, but if its by 'hot' or 'active' then your comment just helped bump it back up to the top.
  
  Fuck!
- To incite a civil war.

4B is doable! My wife and I haven't had sex in 3 years and we sort of like each other.
Just imagine not actually liking anyone at all, easy!
For everything else, there's pornhub.
- Until the P25 porn ban anyway
  
  Start downloading now!

Most of the men that voted for Trump aren't having sex anyway.
- Coworker is a 54 year old virgin who blames it on the woke agenda.
  (He is a total prick.)
- having*
  
  Thanks buddy, I fixed it just for you.
  
  haven’t had
- Trump has had 3 wives and at least one additional mistress we know of. There are literally women who wear “you can grab my pussy” shirts
  How are you this out of touch with reality?
  
  There are plenty of MAGA men with wives and girlfriends. I'm talking about the ones that don't.

Yeah because men were having so much sex and dating tons before.
- Most people do yeah
  
  Fair. I was specifically talking about the incel crowd.

The first time you say no to someone you really want to be with, that is when the 4B life starts. Till then, it's just business as usual (I really hope you don't sleep with/date people you don't like!).
The life continues when you see them with someone else, and realise some things can't be undone. People move on, they're not static NPCs you can just reload and date later.
It goes ever on, life stops for no-one and it runs it's course far too soon. To those who choose that path, make sure you know where it leads.
Edit: nice catch apostrofail! I'll keep no-one though, I feel they need that special dash bond ;)
- No judgement, just curious, but is the idea here that conservative men should not be allowed to have sex since they don't respect women? All for it, agree 100%. But i have a hard time imagining a feminist being with that type of man anyways, since the majority of feminist Ive met have self respect. So then you're not sleeping with any men to punish them, and yourself, for conservative men? I feel like I'm missing something.
  Or is this article just implying 4B is something completly different than what it actually is? You know, cuz clickbait isn't concerned with being factual...
  
  I think, and here the key word is think as this goes beyond my mandate so to speak, it's more an act of resistance. A bit like protesting, but with less risk.
  I'd say the aim is to rallying over retribution, to push those "good men" into fighting more strongly. It's not a bad tactic, it'll be interesting to see how it pans out.
  It's also not really that widespread, searches for it are up because it's making the rounds is all.
- not static NPCs*
  for no *one

Man here, I fully agree with this.
I have been hoping for something to bring down the birthrate of the states that restrict abortion since the restrictions started.
I had been hoping for mass migration of 50% or so of all women from the relevant states, but I see how that can be difficult.
I truly hope that they are successful in gaining their rights back.

This is not gonna work because all conservative men are closeted homosexuals.
- They are desperate for children though
- Hey me too! That is not a bad idea! Have companionship with the opposite sex that is also attracted only to the same sex! No babies and you'll have a good companion.
  
  I think that's called "having a housemate".

OR…you could just have sex and start families with men who support women’s rights?
I have a feeling this extremist “solution” is just disguised misandry from a bunch of extremist feminists.
Ah well, thanks for selecting yourselves out of the gene pool, I guess?
- This ironically helps the right wing cause lol. Right wing men have sex anyway with right wing women, who are not interested in the 4b movement (and there are quite a lot of those, judging by how many voted for trump), so basically this ensure that the majority of future children's will grow up in a right wing family/environment
- It has been idiocracy for a long time now. I doubt this will make a dent in the diluted gene pool.

You don't have to give up marriage, sex, and dating in order to swear off men.
- Well said, dragonfucker.

#inform #resist #improve

It worked in the Arab Spring
- I'm not being facetious, but how many countries that were part of the Arab spring are now not effectively Islamic dictatorships?
  It was a great thing at the time but it seems to me to have not paid off.
  
  I mean it's a tale as old as time. Surviving and opposing strongmen dictatorship selects for the most adherent and extreme. Thus when the dictatorship falls for whatever reason the crazy extremists are usually in the best position.

Wait for more polarisation.

Magats on the one way road to demographic suicide unless they learn to like gay sex and hope hard for some crazy evolution...
- Are you saying women who support 4B used to date MAGAts? Seems like the women talking about 4B were already selective enough to only date liberals/leftists/etc.
  
  Don't mind me I'm pissy. But no I was saying Trump supporters will likely be the recipients of this treatment and other than changing course or learning to procreate in the absence of women will decline, in my dream anyway.
- The fuck?

They haven’t figured out that Conservatives see this as a huge win? No liberal babies…

the 4B movement is just a bunch of TERFs
- What do you mean? How can a movement originated in the famously socially progressive utopia of South Korea possibly be anything but good for the long term prosperity and happiness of left leaning women in the US? /s

Completely reasonable response to Project 2025.
No sarcasm, I'm quite serious. This is the play.
- My only holdup is that I fear this would result in increased sexual assaults. I think the messaging is great, but fear for the collateral.
  
  Okay so we beat the shit out of sexual assaulters in the streets. One problem at a time, baby. The men are at fault here, we don't blame women for being sexually assaulted for withholding sex. That's some "she was asking for it with the way she was dressed" shit.

4B 4ever!

Self-selective removal of oneself and those of probable left-leaning male partners from the gene pool* is certainly one strategy left-leaning women could try in the fight for a political environment where their rights are protected and progress further. Probably a terrible strategy, but certainly one that could be chosen.
I respect any individual's bodily autonomy and am not trying to make a statement in favor of men having a right to access or anything like that. It's just an illogical movement if the goal is a society that has more individuals likely to support women's rights - the gamble that thirsty men of the left will somehow save the day or that it would affect men on the right is kind of silly unless we're assuming that there is a statistically meaningful amount of (secretly) left leaning women out there choosing right wing men as partners. (I wonder if anyone has tried to focus a campaign on seeing if the latter group exists in a sizable amount and can be convinced to be vote left - somebody should look into that and see how it works out. /s)
It's almost like 4B is something that the right wing would push to further their current advantage in household size in the US...
*I am not seriously implying politics are a matter of genetics (though parents commonly pass down their politics to children in their household via social means), but plenty of people on the right do believe in their own "good genes" versus the "bad genes" of the left and I'm leaning on their perspective for sarcastic effect here.
- Yeah, the whole concept of 4B only works if a vast majority of women are on the same page, and given the results from this election, they clearly are not.
  
  It was stolen.

Ironic, given that the men they're protesting against desperately need to get fucked.
- Metaphorically speaking, at least.

yeah please actually fucking do this. men have had it too easy. it's time to stop appeasing them(us?). Yes patriarchy harms men quite a bit and they(we?) were already among its victims, but molly coddling men has clearly not worked.
this body i'm in, people see it and presume it's white, cis, and male, so i say this while fully understanding that women following 4B would treat me even less human than they already do. But frankly, every single aspect of me that has ever been 'masculine' feels less human already so i can't blame them. it would feel right. it would be eminently fair. i'm sick of being associated with the depravity of the misogynistic paradigm. i'd rather be completely ostracized and socially isolated than know that this shit is still going on. end it. fucking end it. please.
- I've noticed shitty men have it too easy. It's a cultural problem centered around what we value.

fuck them…

This has literally been a thing for like... 60 years

anti-natalism rules

So democrats will swear off men reducing their population in the future while the cons just carry on like normal? This makes no sense.

And if you speak up on Politics Lemmy about feminism, or fight back against sexist men as a woman, mod Jordan Lund will build a case to ban you. He is a fascist.

This is a GREAT idea!

So… MGTOW for women?
Okay, bye

Sounds like a great way to ensure that conservatives are the only ones having kids. This is just liberal women organizing their own extinction.
- The other option is to have daughters with increasingly fewer freedoms than us. Fuck that noise.
  
  Yup. I want kids, but I'm leaning towards not having kids due to, well... gestures broadly
  
  Wouldn't this make it even worse? This is basically ensure that an ever greater % of people grow up right wing, so that Republicans can stay in power longer with more extreme ideas
- women are more than baby incubating machines, holy shit
  
  I didn't say they were. I certainly believe that a woman can do whatever she wants with her body, and if some women choose not to have children, that's their right, as far as I'm concerned. But, the fact of the matter is, if women aren't having children, before too long there won't be any more people. It's really as simple as that.
- While parents certainly have an influence on their children's ideologies and political leanings, it isn't deterministic. Those children do still have agency, and external factors such as education (which yes, I know is under attack) and urbanization matter. Or even just simple youthful rebelliousness.
  Regardless, I wouldn't advocate left-leaning people to have more kids in some ill-advised attempt at a reproductive arms race. Among other issues, we are still staring in the face of environmental collapse.
  
  I wouldn't count on spontaneous liberal epiphanies and teenage rebellion to preserve the liberal hegemony.
  I'm not necessarily advocating for anything. If you don't want to have kids, don't have kids. I'm certainly not going to mourn the death of liberalism, but I'm not thrilled about Conservativism taking its place as the dominant ideology.
- You’re getting downvoted but it’s the logical end.
  
  Only if you assume a person can't possibly have different political views from their parents'. It's certainly more difficult, I'll give you that, but it does happen.
- Have you not been paying attention to practically every progressive issue in the last decade? Pretty sure the people actually making decisions about what gets promoted on social media aren't your friends.

- How’s the weather on that right wing?

What's the point?
I understand why they would choose not to date men that advocate against abortions and stuff - that's basic dignity and self-protection.
But why not date any other men? To hurt demographics to the best of their ability state-wise? Then this is primarily a problem set 15-20 years into the future, and may not really see the government's reaction for a while.
- The article implies that this is a reaction to specifically conservative men. So I think there is nuance there that the article is choosing not to define. But until women get autonomy over their reproductive health, having sex with any men, conservative or not, comes with increased risk. So it has a certain logic to it even if they are truly swearing off literally all men.
  
  Ooh, that's something I didn't grok when I first saw these articles pop up. Everything is focused on the "no sex punishment" angle. But, for women, now sex is more of a Russian roulette with varying amounts of bullets based on luck and how much the man cares about contraception.
  An accident could saddle them with an unwanted child. Or death outside a hospital because doctors are immobilized by "abortion bans".
- It's a protest about women reasserting autonomy over their own bodies. The majority of men in the US have voted for a regime that has shown it does not regard women's rights. It could be different from person to person but it's mainly to show the government that women won't just be passive when laws try to force women to just be a submissive baby maker.
  Supportive men could do the same to maybe accellerate the cause until reasonable rights in the region are established for healthy childbirth and sex.
  
  I see. Think it's an overkill and people can use contraception instead of going full separate, but there is kind of a point in there
- I genuinely believe there are trolls who throw shit like this at the wall just to see if it will stick.
  It's sad when people actually mess up their families because they listen to trolls on the internet.
  
  No one wants to have families right now, especially women, you homunculus.

Sigh. This is not and is never the answer.
I'm not sure why this generation is so gung-ho to sell itself out.
- Bold of you to assume that someone was touching my peepee before all those craziness
  
  Jim (40yo & married): "this is dumb and obviously just another ploy to turn people against each other"
  Lemmy: "anyone who thinks this is stupid is an unfuckable neckbeard rapist!"
  Have fun not-fucking the best years of your life away while you get played by the latest payop.
  Wonder what the "thing" we're all enraged about will be next month.
  
  What?
  You have to be a special kind of stupid to advocate for punishing men because Trump won.
  Sane people should not let this interfere with them starting a family. I guess that's why you can't understand my point.
  Also gonna block you, it's clear you're too far gone from these forums.
- I'm not quite onboard with your "punishing men" rhetoric later in the thread, but here I agree
  Like, how many attempts are now undertaken to pitch men and women against one another or otherwise separate them, and how far can this rabbit hole go?
  Men are growing wary of women - and everyone's cheering as MGTOW raises heads again. Women are getting increasingly defensive - and breed fear and loathing, as crowds cheer again. Both play off each other to show how much the other side sucks.
  One is only seen as friendly if they support this division; anyone trying to bridge it is seen as a bad actor.
  Stop it. Fuck 4B. Fuck MGTOW. Fuck that conservative dude who thinks they have a right for a woman's body. Fuck those who put all men into sexual offenders category. Let common sense, love, and responsibility to each other prevail. Go outside and protest gerontocrats trying to take women's right for their own body. Allow and encourage men to stand alongside and be part of the fight against forces many of them didn't choose. Never put all people in one basket, and fight your true enemy.

- It's funny, switch the roles and you'll have a situation that actually happens outside of shower conversations.
- what the fuck is this
  
  fanfic