It’s not alarmist: A second Trump term really is an extinction-level threat to democracy
Why a second Trump term is a mortal threat to democracy — though perhaps not the way you think.
It's not so alarming what will happen if Trump gets elected
What's more alarming for me is how dumb America could be that they are even considering electing someone like him ... or to even have a choice between an average politician or a wannabe fascist and everyone is having a hard time deciding on what the sane option is.
This is a general intelligence test for America ... and so far they are failing.
To be fair, a lot of people believe that choosing neither somehow would absolve them of any guilt should fascism win.
This is what I mean .... the choice is either an average politician or an old wing nut orange man ... but the choices are so difficult for Americans to decide that many choose neither and never think that they are instead paving the way for the wannabe fascist.
I can't believe that the fate of the world hinges on the deranged decisions of a completely confused people. As much as I don't want to admit that America has so much influence, they do have literal control over much of the world and they do have the largest most powerful military at the moment. So whoever gets to be leader will set the stage for the stability or instability of the world in the next few years. And it's all riding on ill informed choices of a very ill informed population.
don't forget the christian second coming accelerationist folk who just want to see it all burn because they're embarrassed they've fucked up too many predictions.
They wish to literally embody the "all it takes for evil to prosper.." axiom
One party in particular has gone to great lengths to wreck the education system, looks like we are starting to see the results of those efforts.
The culture of America is rooted in bigoted populism. You know what the big political issue of the 1850s was? 1870's? 1920's? 1960's?
It's the aftermath of the 60s that kept the creeps quiet for awhile, but we're regressing to the mean now. This is the real America for better or worse. Always has been.
This is a general intelligence test for America … and so far they are failing.
It's not.
Most voters aren't "stupid," they just live in completely different information universes.
This has always been the case in America, but I feel like it's never been so severe, with people basically having their minds sucked into phones by design.
My parents have been brainwashed into not believing any news that shows Trump in a bad light. When I show them video of one of his rants, or his dancing, or him giving a microphone a happy ending, they think I'm gullible and am falling for doctored video.
When people have been trained not to trust legitimate news sources, it's really, really hard to convince them to come back to reality because, in their eyes, we're the brainwashed ones.
Disagree. Americans are too comfortable to do much of anything for themselves. The rise of centrism is basically being OK with whatever, and calling that clever.
Cause vs tipping point.
The test was failed many many years ago.
have a choice between an average politician or a wannabe fascist and everyone is having a hard time deciding on what the sane option is.
The "average politician" is backing a genocide and israel fascist government, among other evil regimes around the world like saudi arabia or emirates.
If you consider either a fascist or a genocide supporter a sane option you are doing something much worst than failing an intelligence test, you are evil and in bad faith.
Erdogan once said "democracy is a bus we ride until we reach our destination". I feel major similar vibes from the GOP.
Is the destination Thunderdome?
Just as violent but much more authoritarian and much less fun to watch.
I don't know exactly how bad a second Trump term would be, but I'd really rather not find out. At best it will be embarrassing and absurd, at worst it would be devastating and catastrophic for countless millions, both inside and outside the US.
Right off the top of my head.
South Korea (NK); NATO (he’s pull us out of it); the baltic states (Russia will likely try to invade, after the previous one) Finland (same); Mexico (Trump will probably try to invade at some point)
If American democracy elects Trump, then your version of it has already failed.
The fact he's a consideration for the presidency again means we're already broken beyond repair, he'd just be the tombstone.
We'll have fascists shoot Americans in the street and fully protected by the law (and not just the cops who do it) before we ever have a candidate who can give us Universal Healthcare and a better minimum wage.
A wake up call to fix the Democracy was in 2000, and we did nothing. We all ignored our complaints when 9/11 happened, and then did nothing when Trump won in 2016.
It’s easy to keep rewinding until you find the one place we went wrong. Turnips first election, what we let bush get away with, Clinton’s turn of the party, electing Reagan, Nixon…. There always the one thing, there’s always the one weird trick.
We have a broken garbage system that has failed. We’re in for some shit.
A second Trump term really is an extinction-level threat to democracy worldwide, not just in United States. Considering that Trump and his supporters promise an isolationist policy, all sorts of predatory authoritarian and totalitarian regimes will suddenly feel like they can do anything - and this will start happening all over the world.
Chomsky was right when he properly pointed out that Republicans are the biggest threat to the world.
Donnie is merely a symptom. No Republicans ever should be allowed to hold any office.
I would argue that the Republicans are a symptom as well, the whole USA democratic structure will only enable a 2-party system. The whole systemic structure is rotten.
GOP is an extinction level threat to humanity
I think he’s a symptom of a much larger disease. The people behind him, the evangelicals, non college educated whites, the climate change deniers, the industrialists who fight every regulation, the behind closed doors racists. These are the democracy extinction harbingers.
I've been saying for a while, George W. Bush is the one who took the door off its hinges and sold it, Trump is just the inevitable crackhead who walked in and started living in the kitchen.
Or it could be regular family people that are sick of seeing their taxes going to countries not even in NATO. Or the fact that the inflation during this administration has American choosing food or medicine. Or the fact that during this administration housing has become only a dream. Or the facts that the current administration opened the boarder to bring cheap labor to replace us. Yeah great current administration!
Or it could be regular family people that are sick of seeing their taxes going to countries not even in NATO.
I thought republicans didn't even like NATO, what's the butthurt about this?
Or the fact that the inflation during this administration has American choosing food or medicine.
We had to choose that long before this administration. The primary source of inflation is corporate greed and the top 0.1% demanding more from the rest of us, while paying less themselves, a position they only get away with because of conservatives.
Or the fact that during this administration housing has become only a dream.
Because there are no penalties or dis-incentives for corporations not to buy up all the land and houses. Every time we try to impose such rules, it gets shot down by republicans.
Or the facts that the current administration opened the boarder to bring cheap labor to replace us.
Border. Also, the implied violence and expulsion against undocumented workers is what enables employers to pay them such a cheap wage and enforce abysmal working conditions on them. The correct solution is to provide an easy path for work visas, and heavily penalize companies for hiring undocumented workers. You'll never guess who is against doing that though...
Your comment is peak "stick in bicycle" meme.
sick of seeing their taxes going to countries not even in NATO.
This misconception needs to be corrected.
The tax dollars go to America's milliary industrial complex. It's their surplus (which is already budgeted and paid for by the American government) that is sent overseas. No tax dollars leave the USA.
Medicine? You mean like those handled by Obamacare which Trump wants to get rid of? From my understanding that was a huge change (here in Australia we have Medicare which is life changing and similar)
Also, if you're getting replaced by people from another country (who have a huge disadvantage), I'd argue maybe you need to work on improving yourself.
That being said, she's also increasing the minimum wage and taxing the rich more (whilst reducing tax for middle class and poor). So even minimum wage people are hugely better off.
Trumps bs has caused issues internationally, even here in Australia. I don't think you realise how much he is fucking things up for normal people worldwide
Shhhh. Some folks are reading the article.
speaker of the house is a devoutly religious buffoon. and he absolutely loves the angry orange. keep that in your thoughts over the next week.
it's an extinction level event for a lot of things. we're already out of time on so many important issues. every living creature on this earth should consider him a threat. we are in self defense mode, or at least we should be. sadly, most of you don't seem to understand how dire the situation really is.
but whatever. stick your head back in the sand i guess.
What exactly are you going to do about it? Seriously list out the specific measures you're taking.
Well start by voting. Vote local, vote often and make your voice heard. Then maybe try to reduce your carbon footprint. You really need a cultural shift for this to be effective. Yes yes I know businesses are the major polluters so I revert back to sentence one, vote, and continue to try to shift the culture to a more renewable one
Are you ready to take the fight to the streets? Because that’s likely what it’ll come down to. Voting won’t save you. The constitution is only a flimsy piece of paper. Start organizing now.
For those who disagree, simply read about Spain, Italy, Germany, and Japan during the 1930's. Furthermore, the Electoral College should be shut down.
I honestly don't understand why we talk about eliminating the Electoral College when it literally requires some states to vote in favor of giving up their own power. In what economy of incentives is this even possible?
The most likely path at this point is the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact, a collection of state legislative measures, state constitutional amendments, etc. aimed at using the electoral college against itself. The very short tldr is once >=270 electoral votes worth of states have passed something enacting it, all those states' delegates will vote in line with the national popular vote regardless of how their individual state votes, forcing the popular vote winner to be president.
Whether or not it'll survive judicial challenge if/when it gets to >=270 electoral votes worth of states is entirely unclear. In theory, there's nothing they should be able to do about it, but SCOTUS has shown time and time again it doesn't actually give a fuck about the constitution.
It doesn't require the handful of swing states to be onboard. It just requires the heavy hitters which are largely marginalized by the electoral college and some of the smaller deep left or right states which are also made pretty irrelevant in terms of campaigning even if they get a bit more influence
I made these pictures because I don't think that arguments like "Trump is a threat to democracy" are something his supporters agree with. Maybe people could share these things in groups they know in these last couple days before the election.
Their goto response to things like this is, "Even the devil can quote scripture - nice try, Satan."
Really? Because I recall the first woman hung in Salem for witchcraft was hung because being unable to say the Lord's prayer in english(she spoke gaelic) means you're a witch.
I wonder which one is canonically correct? Can the devil say bible words or not? Or is it specifically the lords prayer? Because if that's it then we can prove we ARENT the devil.
I hate religious rhetoric so much. My brain hurts now trying to make it make sense.
I'd argue here that right next to Trump, it is the electoral college. But, as Americans can't do anything to change their electoral system, they are probably already owned. If it isn't Trump, it will be another Trump-like candidate, whether Republican or Democrat.
The civil servant job thing is an insurance plan disguised as job security. It would enable Trump to fill the bureaucracy with loyal stooges who will keep doing his bidding during the next administration - like his House cronies did when he told them not to pass the bipartisan border security bill so he could use the border as his main campaign issue.
His appointees from the last go round are already still fucking things up. If you’ve tried to interact with the legal system or any regulatory agency, there basically is none. For everything from DHS to FOIA, the government is and has not functioning in many southern states.
I would literally prefer a steaming pile of shit as president than Trump.
American democracy, anyways.
If only democracy was a thing in many, many other countries across the globe.
Oh well - don't let us down, America.
Ooops! You guys fucked up! Knew we couldn't count on you.
And if he loses, so will the next Republican.
And the next one.
And the next one.
If he loses, I think we see the fractures in the republican party really start to cascade even more than they have since the last election. It'll still be a stewpot of regressive, reactionary, fascist fellating bullshit, but their goose stepping will be out of sync.
Meanwhile, a collapse of the Republican part opens the door for a likewise restructuring of the Democratic party, which has for decades now been a big tent party for people who aren't braindead, but is otherwise pretty ideideologically disparate. And before you wah wah wah FPTP, keep in mind that all RCV initiatives in the US have arisen out of Democratic party affiliated groups.
That didn't happen last time. Instead, everyone tried to become the new Trump and take up the mantle. They failed because the real Trump was still running, but without him they'll be able to adapt.
Although they'll struggle to draw in voters the way Trump does. People like Trump because he's an "outsider". A new outsider can totally emerge to take up the mantle once Trump is not sucking all the oxygen out of the room.
Or who knows. Maybe once Trump is defeated everything will go back to normal. 👍
Oh here campaigning for Repubs all the way to the end, huh? "Both sides are colluding, Dems don't reverse Repub policies! Therefore give up and allow as many Repub policies as we can."
Which is why the Republican Party needs to be disbanded
It's more like a cult and/or terrorist organization at this point.
Correct.
So that the US becomes a one party state? Sounds oddly similar to a certain way of ruling that was used by a certain German leader during WWII. And y'all have the nerve to call Trump a fascist. The irony is through the roof.
There is actually little daylight between Biden and Trump on an international level. The real difference is between the parties. If you're American I can 100% understand why you'd never want the GOP anywhere near education, healthcare, climate policy etc. Their religious zealotry, genocidal inclinations towards Muslims (which is present but far more muted among Dems), racial antipathy and paranoia of black people and anti-intellectualism are a recipe for national decline and unrestrained global abuse of non-white, non-Christian peoples.
The Democrats have a neoconservative problem which also threatens the entire world. But sadly the responsible and sensible side of America is stuck with them.
Does the Dems have an issue with Neocons? I can agree with that.
But I prefer the side that at least supports NATO and our allies. I prefer the side that at least doesn't lavish praise to dictators on a regular basis.
Say what you want about Neocons, it is telling when we have Dick Cheney and John Bolton saying that Trump is dangerous. I will hold my nose and thank them for helping to get Harris elected to preserve the democracy we have.
Sorry, no, there is a huge difference between MAGA Republicans and the Dems (and Neocons) on foreign policy.
Isn't Trump like super isolationist? Ask a Ukrainian who they prefer to win and I think they'll have a pretty consistent answer.
To claim Trump is "isolationist" in 2016 is one. To claim it in 2024 is simply denying the facts. Trump was and remains not that much different to Biden on international policy. The key difference is diplomacy. Trump fails at diplomacy while keeping within many of the same policies.
There is a reason that Biden foreign policy has doubled down or refused to undo Trump era policies that Democrats considered to be mistakes, like leaving the JCPOA, playing around with Taiwan ambiguities, enabling Israeli liquidation of a nascent Palestinian state, etc.
It’s not alarmist: A second Trump term really is an extinction-level threat to democracy
No, it is not an extinction-level threat to democracy. We have plenty of democracy in the rest of the western world, thank you very much. A second Trump term would be a huge threat to US democracy though. But that's not what this headline implies. Extinct means gone forever, from everywhere. That's simply not the case. I'm tired of Americans forgetting that there's a world outside their borders.
Why do people make comments only on the headline without reading the article and commenting on that? The article *specifically refers to *"American democracy". It then goes on to reference other specific democracies for comparison.
Headlines shorten things and usually aren't written by the person who wrote the article anyway; they sometimes don't even reflect the article contents accurately. If you don't want to read the article, fine, but please don't make comments based only on the headline.
I'm commenting on the headline, not the article. I'm allowed to do that.
No, it is.
No one who listens to a wide range of news sources and gets a balanced perspective talks like this. If you agree with this you need to branch out and challenge yourself with different world views, even if it is difficult for you.
The thing is with the wide range of news sources, the two sides of 'Does Trump and his close associates want to undermine democracy or not' tends to boil down to:
Trump specifically wants an autocracy and has attracted like-minded folks who would want to advance that concept to their own purposes after Trump dies. The potentially more sane parts of the republican party have decided to ostracize those willing to stand up and object to Trump, notably including Romney and Cheney. Now that he's stepping down, even Mitch McConnell seems to be corroborating accounts that, privately, he thought Trump needed to go.
He's not a nuanced man and he has always been a megalomaniac that has always undermined everything around him if it meant he got a little ahead personally. I don't understand how anyone can continue to give him the benefit of the doubt.
You know I really can’t tell, and as a non-American outsider see that both sides are being extremely alarmist at this moment. Although the main criticism of Harris is that she is more of the same, there are plenty who try to paint her as a radical and dangerous left-winger, when she is nothing of the sort of course. Makes one wonder where the real Donald Trump ends and the caricature begins on the other end of the spectrum.
This is simply what we call polarization in politics, and is very hurtful to any semblance of unity that nationhood requires. America will likely not heal from this for a while, no matter who wins. Unless, whoever wins, delivers on something that matters to everyone, regardless of politics, that is usually something having to do with the cost and quality of life. That tends to placate people, even while their freedoms are being curtailed.
But I do feel that Trump is more symptom than cause. And the article suggests as much as well:
“…rising political antagonism in America is a perennial outgrowth of its defining conflict over race and national identity — with the current round of conflict sparked largely (albeit not entirely) by backlash to Barack Obama’s 2008 victory.”
There is nothing alarmist about raising the alarm when one candidate wants to bring back the spoils system to give regulatory power to the world's richest man, and leadership of some of the most important health organizations in the world to an anti-science, disturbed individual who mutilates roadkill. It is objectively alarming when a candidate for leadership of the most powerful military complex in history cozies up to dictators and admits that he would like to be a dictator, just for one day. This candidate himself will be serving a final term and has displayed questionable mental health, and is facing significant criminal and civil liability and therefore has nothing to lose.
Make no mistake, this election is between more of the same, with many of the negatives it implies, and an inflection point in world history the likes of which we have not seen since perhaps 1985.
"I'm not an alarmist, but let me start the alarm"
ITT: small, shithole country thinks it's elections matter even slightly to the rest of the world.
The same two parties have been cycling in power for a decade and you are now voting between a fascist and a genocide supporter. Democracy already doesn't exist in USA
I've seen this same disinformation multiple times so I keep posting the refutation. Kamala wants a ceasefire.
https://lemmy.world/comment/13069715
She’s taken a stance, multiple times. The left doesn’t want to hear it.
March - https://www.npr.org/2024/03/04/1234822836/kamala-harris-benny-gantz-gaza-cease-fire-israel-hamas
July - https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/25/harris-netanyahu-israel-cease-fire-00171315
Biden is complicit in genocide, but people in his administration have spoken out.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/02/politics/us-government-employees-gaza-policy-statement/index.html
Trump wants Israel to finish their genocide.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/04/politics/trump-israel-comments/index.html
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-israel-gaza-finish-problem-rcna141905
Democrats want a ceasefire. Republicans want genocide. Despite attempts to conflate these two positions they could not be more different.
Do not let anyone tell you we have two fascists parties. We have a neoliberal party and a fascist party. The neoliberal party is terrible on this issue, but they do not want the genocide to continue. The Palestinians, along with everyone else, will be harmed by a second Trump term. Voting for Kamala is harm reduction. If you care about anyone please vote for Harris and Walz because doing so is useful for ending the genocide.
Democrats want a ceasefire. Republicans want genocide. Despite attempts to conflate these two positions they could not be more different. Do not let anyone tell you we have two fascists parties. We have a neoliberal party and a fascist party. The neoliberal party is terrible on this issue, but they do not want the genocide to continue. The Palestinians, along with everyone else, will be harmed by a second Trump term. Voting for Kamala is harm reduction. If you care about anyone please vote for Harris and Walz because doing so is useful for ending the genocide.
Harris is not some random democrat party member she's the vice president of the current Biden administration. She's the second highest person in charge in the country, trying to pull her out from what the government is doing is a big stretch. You are claiming in the same post Biden to be complicit in a genocide and the democrats to want a ceasefire, stop being illogical.
Both parties are fine with the genocide going on and with israel fascist government finishing the job, this is not what i'm telling you it's what is happening live right now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
Interesting. Which candidate is supporting genocide, and which way are they supporting it?
In fact both parties are fascists and supporting a genocide.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio
It's really not. Just fear mongering to turn out the base.
What weight do his own words have in this situation? Talking about his rhetoric in general (e.g. ebemy within, send the army to deal with some ppl, dictator from day one, don't need to vote anymore, etc.)
Right? They keep saying that he'll turn the US into Nazi Germany or whatever democrat staffers are telling them to spam around the internet from their discord server. Why didn't he do that in 2016? Astroturfers all over the place. That's the Kamala campaign for you though.
Even Dems agree Trump will likely pull out of Ukraine. Trump seems like his battle with China will be over tariffs, and less military-focused than the Dem Sinophobia. Though of course, Trump will also continue writing a blank check to Israel.
That’s two less escalation fronts with nuclear armed superpowers under Trump. The Dems are measurably closer to an extinction level threat.
But realistically we need to topple both capitalist parties to save humanity.
Here, in the German press, I recently heard Trump described as not being the catastrophe itself, he rather is just a symptom of a deep rift going through US society.
Judging by what he did during his first term: Regarding Germany nothing much happened that was any worse than whatever Obama or grampa Biden did during the adjacent terms. A lot of isolationism happened under Biden. In the term before Trump, a lot of murdering people (including a lot of "collateral damage, aka murderings of civilists") happened under Obama with his over the top employment of drone warfare.
I don't see much of a difference by whoever becomes the next GRÖFAZ POTUS.
BoTh SiDeS
I don’t see much of a difference by whoever becomes the next
GRÖFAZPOTUS.
GReAtest President Ever? GRAPE?
GReat APE, return to monke.
As one European to another, thank you for giving an honest outside-in perspective, downvotes be damned :)
So much fearmongering. I'm new to Lemmy, and it seems to me that the Kamala campaign has infected Lemmy as well, just like they have Reddit. Looks like I'm not safe from leftist echochambers even after switching to Lemmy.
Fearmongering? The republican presidential candidate talked about using the national guard / military on "radical leftists"/"the enemy within". If that's not a threat/fascism, what is?
What exactly were you expecting when you shifted to the Reddit alternative whose main developers were communist? You're either clueless or a bot.
If you read my comment, I said I'm new here. That is my first ever comment here. How was I supposed to know that the website was being ran by tankies? I've jumped from the frying pan into the fire. I can't escape far leftists. And they want to put a communist and a known warmonger in office. We're so cooked.
extinction-level threat to the dregs honestly, it's a shame there isn't a politician with a right-wing social policy and a left-wing economic policy, because that is the gold the world needs
Right wing social policy and left wing economic policy would be nuts though.
"Fuck the rich! Tax them to hell, spend the money on... um... the military budget!"
I think he's describing Mao Zedong. Gays, porn, and religion not welcome.
That gets one out of two thumbs up!
