How can I vote for Kamala Harris if she supports Israel’s war? Here is my answer | Bernie Sanders
Trump says Netanyahu is doing a good job and Biden is holding him back. Even on this issue, Trump is worse
This is persuasion done correctly. "I understand how you are feeling. Israel's crimes and US support of them should be important to all of us. You aren't wrong to have your reservations, and I agree change is needed. That being said, please let me tell you why it's important to participate." No insults, readily apparent empathy, and a sound argument.
People have been doing exactly that since back when we were trying to somehow get Biden to win.
The message isn't the thing. It is the speaker. Because even the tankiest of tankies are going to be wary of insulting Sanders in front of their audience. And this is why celebrity endorsements matter.
Edit: I'm changing my stance on how common this is after a few hours looking at top election posts and comments across boards. The abuse definitely exists, but in most places it WASN'T at the top. While "vote bullying" happens, I was wrong about how much support it gets. I'm happy to be wrong and glad to see that people usually are pretty decent about presenting their arguments. I still think OP's article shows how people should be convinced.
I get what you are saying and half-agree. Where I respectfully disagree is that people have always been this reasonable. By writing "this is how it's done correctly, with respect and logic" I'm juxtaposing Sen. Sander's approach vs. "vote with us or else you're -insert insult here-" posts, comments, and memes. I've seen tons of some attempts to dehumanize or discredit critics of Biden/Harris/Dems on Lemmy and other platforms. You are right that some most have always tried to be empathetic and civil.
I also agree high-profile endorsements matter. That bugs me a little bit because I think arguments should succeed or fail on their own merits and not reputation. But I know I'm a consciously "have no heroes" person because I believe everyone is fallible. I definitely have people I respect a lot, but no one that I'll agree with all the time.
And this is why celebrity endorsements matter.
Good call. When your "role model" (for lack of a better term) takes a position on something, it tends to give it more credence to the target audience.
I have a great deal of respect for Bernie Sanders, so his words carry some weight with me. He is being a voice of reason.
I’ve seen threads from only hours ago where lemmygrad denizens were shitting on Sanders as far too conservative. Like… honestly, at this point, I think many people in that crowd are just leaning into being agitprop trolls for t3h lulz, or something like that. It’s deeply stupid imo, but they seem to not care.
People have been doing exactly that since back when we were trying to somehow get Biden to win.
No. Centrists have been screaming that anyone who has the slightest misgivings about their genocide is a trumpist russian shill bot child. There has been no understanding whatsoever because centrists cannot fathom disliking genocide.
Can't wait to see this post and comments screenshotted on hexbear 🍿
Bernie endorsed Hillary too. Fat lot that did. My progressive friend still wrote his name in on the ballot.
Luckily my friend is done fucking around. But seems like a lot of the "leftist" vocal minority here on Lemmy want the rest of us to pay the "find out" tab for them again.
Pfft.
Just had someone tell me that Bernie is too old and can't think any more.
They just want an excuse to get noticed and pretend to be badass.
I really wish the USA was just seeing the end of a double-term Bernie presidency. I'm not dumb enough to pretend that it would have all been roses and prosperity (especially with the pandemic), but missing the setbacks of that 1st Trump presidency alone would have been pretty great. I -think- I'd prefer a younger president, but if an older president had to be chosen then Bernie seems articulate and compassionate.
Finally! Not the video link! Thank you!
That was my bad. Thank you for everything you do!
I love Bernie. Clearest speaker ever
AOC had a similar response on Pod Save America.
You win political influence by being a crucial part of a win. You lose political influence if your political opponents are in office. The best chance to have your voice heard on Israel is being a crucial part of a Harris win.
That is the calculation.
Yep.
I would recommend folks watch this 20 minute video on Rules for Rulers from CGP Grey.
Despots, Presidents, CEOs, Deans, Homeowners Association Presidents, the guy who runs the open mic- at the end of the day they have to follow the same rules to maintain their power. The zero'th rule in the video is "without power, you affect nothing".
I'm voting for Kamala, and I'm voting down ballot for any pro-palestine candidate. I want to send the message that in order to get reelected, she will need to change her stance.
When I see people not voting out of protest, they are giving their opposition the influence over their elected officials. Remember, they work for you, and voting is how you let them know what you want.
AOC calculations indicate that she supports corporations over the rail union workers.
And your calculations are you get off of losing and even people who agree with you on almost everything aren't good enough to stop you from trying to lose more influence.
If AOC's too Capitalist for ya I got bad news about 95% of America.
It is of my opinion that individuals that don't vote in the upcoming election are complacent to the atrocities occuring.
I feel that this occupation is just repeating every few years since '87.
You hear that Mexico! You're complicit!
/s
No no no. I was told by some terminally online Republicans that everyone in Mexico is voting and that's the only reason Trump will lose California.
I pet this complicit kitty that was super cute the other day.
"If you don't vote, you vote for the winner."
No amount of endorsement or support will ever stop the democrats from shitting on bernie. Bernie doesn't even want to replace capitalism, he wants to save capitalism from itself. But even that is way over the line for blue conservatives.
Bernie doesn’t even want to replace capitalism, he wants to save capitalism from itself.
Roosevelt style liberalism only works when you have a full blown leftist movement to triangulate against. Sanders doesn't have anything like that to leverage. There is not Eugene Debbs running from prison with a million voters backing him up.
Of course, it should be noted how much Harris lags Dems in every swing state. He's really hauling dead weight here. And it's not helping his own popularity.
This is what thinking people do, given the cureent choice. Good on Bernie! Shame on the narrow minded twits.
Honestly wish we could've had Pete Buttigieg running still. Already voted for Kamala in a red state, but honestly hope she stops cozing up to the Cheneys and Israel. We need to focus on infrastructure, housing, and healthcare more than any other issue as they are the basic necessities everyone needs!
Easily. Trump would be worse, and any vote not for Kamala is effectively a vote for Trump. If you think otherwise you are deluding yourself.
Stand against genocide by compromising on genocide! Trust me bro, you don't understand politics like I do.
When will Dems give up this elitist gas lighting. It's starting to get embarrassing.
Normally anybody who says "you've only got two choices" is an idiot.
Or, they could be describing a democracy crippled by first past the post:
Watch the video, it's six minutes, fun, informative, and changes things. It's so central that without this video's info as the centerpiece of the discussion, the discussion really is not happening. We need ranked choice to get third parties.
The phrase "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" was coined to mock the sort asanine bullshit that grifters spouted, and eventually those same grifters started to use it unironically and without any self-awareness.
Interesting to see "trust me bro" get the same treatment.
Why is he calling the genocide a "war"?
Because when it's 1 country doing it to another it's both a war and a genocide. If it's a country doing it to their own citizens it's just a genocide. Pretty simple really. Isreal declared war.
Kamala is genocidal queen
Don't forget about all the low level non violent drug offenders she shoveled into the CDCR back in her persecutor days.
The easiest way to get back voters for whom this was a deal breaker, is for Kamala to pivot on the issue.
The rhetorical techniques from surrogates have been out there for months. They don't work when the candidate is out there eroding them by saying things like "nothing comes to mind". You can be angry at these voters, you can blame them, but what obviously isn't working is trying to move them by saying "Trump would be worse".
The only answer here that works is a pivot from Kamala.
The only answer here that works is a pivot from Kamala.
That's the only answer you want. That's not the only answer that works.
Well its clear that the "rhetoric only" approach isn't working and is insufficient. Bernies rhetoric here and in the video version are good. But its not any different than what we've been seeing, literally the entire time from other surrogates. It sums to "Trump worse".
And its not working. It hasn't moved the needle. Kamala has been declining in polling pretty precisely since she snubbed Muslim's at the DNC and then a week after that doubled down on it saying that "nothing would be different" in her administration relative to Biden's. Since then the scale and scope of Israels genocide have increased, and she's stayed the course to a continual decline in polling. Its not "the answer I want", its what the data have to say.
We're a week out from the election. You've convinced all the voters for whom "Trump worse" is a sufficient rhetorical approach.
Now what about the voters for whom that approach is insufficient. Is your plan to leave them on the table? Because it seems to me you aren't interested in getting their votes, and that puts the campaign in jeopardy.
There is a cohort that appears to be about 5% of voters for whom "Trump worse" is an ineffective argument. If not for a pivot on the part of Harris, what is your argument then to get those voters to show up and vote for her?
I feel you. I completely agreed until sometime in spring, when Sen. Sanders first posted an argument very similar to OP's linked article. One of the major reasons I switched stances was environmental damage and global warming which is threatening horrible suffering for hundreds of millions at least. If for no other reason than that Trump must lose. Afterwards those who stand for ethics and proportional response can try to drag the Western leaders out of complicity with war crimes. Never stop criticizing such unethical and illegal policies, but if you're American please vote Democrat.
Exactly. For you, that rhetoric was sufficient. But whats clear in the polling is that there is a small portion of voters for whom that is not enough. Harris needs every single possible vote she can get to pull this out. The campaign needs to offer more than just "Trump worse" if they want voters for whom that rhetoric has been demonstrated to be insufficient.
You lose way more voters than you gain on the issue by resorting to all out condemnation of one of our biggest allies, unfortunate as it is
You lose way more voters than you gain on the issue by resorting to all out condemnation of one of our biggest allies, unfortunate as it is
If only there were some policy between the current enthusiastic unconditional support and all out condemnation.
Maybe if Harris were running as a Republican.
But its not Republican votes she's leaving on the table. Its literally registered Democrats. And Democrats put the responsibility for the state of things on the Israeli government.
Sheep dog is still sheepdogging
They're using synpathy towards people suffering genocide to try and coral people to the polls. I've seen this before. What happened with Roe V Wade? Why are kids still in cages at the border? Why is minimum wage still so low?
Madam Vice President, too little has been done on issues that were previously promised. I cannot take these people at their word.
Want my vote? End support now. It's been a year of genocide with you at the right hand of Biden. All those lives lost happened on your watch. I will not be duped into voting for someone who has been complicit in commiting genocide, who is now promising to stop that same genocide because it happens to coincide with their political goals.
I will not support a genocide, on the promise of it being ended, only to wake up on January 21st just to hear 'Well, the situation is more complicated than just simply ending support, but I vow...!"
You've had a year to end it, and too little has been done to stop it. I will not vote for a genocidal candidate. I will not say that I support genocide by voting for these people. I will not be an accomplice.
It's sickening to think that they probably allowed the genocide to continue just to use it as a carrot to lead people to the ballot box, all the while lining the pockets of the military industrial complex.
Fuck off with your promises, you're in the White House now.
Cool, just have a couple quick questions you can maybe help me out with:
Virtue signalling about genocide and letting the 'genocide to the max' guy win will show the Palestinian people how much you care for their plight.
"If I can't have zero genocide then I don't care to vote against the candidate that is very likely to be even worse."
Especially with only two candidates with a chance of winning, a vote doesn't mean unconditional support for everything that candidate wants. Sucks, but if you want to make your wishes known more specifically, you have to do more than just vote (if even that) and complain on the internet.
If I can’t have zero genocide
Look at where we are.
I decide how I will vote based on whether the candidate is close enough to me across all issues. I don't support genocide, but Harris hasn't advocated launching strikes against Israeli military bases. That's a minus. I support aggressively addressing climate change, Harris is not aggressive enough on the issue. Another minus. I believe the government should set prices of goods based on the needs of the populace. Harris wants to impact the prices of some goods, but she supports free market pricing for others. Minus again. I believe in the rights of the innocent in our judicial system. Harris is a former prosecutor.
Harris doesn't check enough boxes for me, so I'm doing what I did in 2020 again. I'm voting for the only person who truly aligns with my beliefs - myself. Please join me by writing each of yourselves in for President in 2024.
How does that voting strategy effect policies aligned with your concerns?
Oh, I know the answer to this.
Badly.
There's a difference between i) writing a satirical comment that makes an extreme version of an argument to draw attention to the general argument's flaws and ii) trolling people by continuing to pretend to hold a silly point of view, drawing them into a protracted argument.
I'd prefer to treat your question as rhetorical.
Pointless Stupid Gesture 2024!
The worst part is you're not voting for yourself, you are allowing your vote to be transformed into a vote for trump, and it shouldn't be that way.
First past the post voting is the enemy here. Until we ditch it, it truly is a shitty, shitty two party system where not voting for harris is voting for trump. Normally only gangs and morons think "if you're not with me, you're against me"--first past the post creates a law of physics for voting that makes that dumbass way of thinking the law of the land. And "law" like thermodynamics, ie, not the kind you can flip off the cops and break.
We need to change the rules of the game to ones that don't suck so bad. That starts with fourth reich prevention, which under first past the post can only mean a vote for harris.
Yup. It's on the ballot for the first time here and I hope it passes!
I mean, crap, if ALASKA can do it...
the antisemites have to be clearly and succinctly told this, you see
There are Israelis, people of Jewish descent (including Bernie Sanders) and practicing people of the Jewish faith who are vehemently against the genocide being perpetuated against innocent Palestinians.
Netanyahu is committing genocide.