Bernie Sanders to voters skipping presidential election over Israel: ‘Trump is even worse’
Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) shares his message to voters in the Uncommitted Movement who are considering not voting in the presidential race over the Biden administration's handling of Israel.
I just don't get how people are looking at Harris' stance as being pro-genocide. Biden is the President and historically, foreign policy during the tenure of the President by the Vice President doesn't veer too far off from the President. That said, Harris has absolutely called for investigation into the suffering of civilians in the conflict.
Congress sets the budgetary amount of aid to direct to Israel and the President distributes the money via their diplomatic channels. There are very few options for the President to just suspend funding, which Biden has done twice for weapons under the rules established within 10 USC § 362 (a)(1)
Of the amounts made available to the Department of Defense, none may be used for any training, equipment, or other assistance for a unit of a foreign security force if the Secretary of Defense has credible information that the unit has committed a gross violation of human rights.
But outside that, there's very little the President can do once Congress approves funding and that funding has been signed into law. This is why an independent channel investigation is required and is exactly what Harris has called for. This would allow the the US Government to establish their own inquiry into the human abuses. This would give the required evidence to cancel funding under Title XII authority. But none of that can happen overnight. It's not an easy path to override the will of Congress.
On the opposite side, Trump has indicated that he will absolutely turn a blind eye to the whole thing and allow Israel to determine solely the "best" course of action for their current conflict. Trump has literally stated in his rallies:
From the start, Harris has worked to tie Israel's hand behind its back, demanding an immediate cease-fire, always demanding cease-fire
Trump would not see a cease-fire as a required condition for the on-going conflict.
Harris and Democrats historically have called for a two-state solution. Trump's plan which has been broadly adopted by the Republican party in general would:
Trump has all but given up completely on a two-state solution. Which means, he's for a one state solution. And people are fooling themselves if they believe that Trump would seek a "peaceful" one state solution. He has told Netanyahu directly, "Just get it done quickly". Now we can play a game as what manner is used to "get it done quickly" means, but only idiots are the one's thinking that doesn't give a tacit nod to ethic cleansing.
I just have no idea what these people who think Harris is a bad idea for Palestinians are actually thinking. And really, I don't think they are thinking at all. You have one solution that is long, stupid, and required because we are a nation of laws. And you have the other solution that is "fuck it, firebomb them all and call it done". It is difficult to imagine that there are truly people this blind and ignorant to this reality. But yet, here we are.
The notion that we might get a 3rd party into office like twenty years from now if we start today, helps nobody if the people we're trying to help are all eradicated over the next four years. Going down this "third road" only ensures an outcome where we are fifteen years too late to help.
I just have no idea what these people who think Harris is a bad idea for Palestinians are actually thinking. And really, I don’t think they are thinking at all.
They live in cloud cuckoo land where Biden/Harris can just tell Netanyahu "Fuck off and shove a grenade up your arse, you genocidal maniac" and that would actually work.
In really it's probably a mix that totals to around 90% of the people making these pronouncements are either bots, paid trolls from enemy nations, nihilists, or the equivalent. The remaining 10% probably have a genuine belief that voting for Harris makes them complicit in the genocide the Israeli government and its military are committing. They're incorrect, on many levels, but that is probably their genuine belief.
We must always vote for the lesser evil because that's what the real world is, from the most negative point of view: reducing evil and suffering. We know some of the things we're doing today will be seen as evil by our progeny. We don't know others.
A Harris administration will be the most likely to reduce the suffering of Palestinians, the most likely to force the Israeli government and military to end the genocide, and the most likely to make real strides toward middle east peace.
You come off as someone who had the protocols of the elders of Zion read to you in your sleep every night without your knowledge
In really it’s probably a mix that totals to around 90% of the people making these pronouncements are either bots, paid trolls from enemy nations, nihilists, or the equivalent.
All you're missing is that one magic word
I'm trying to understand how this system works and came across this article from Al Jazeera which, if I'm reading it correctly, is saying that the US did determine gross human rights violations but the Biden administration is refusing to apply the Leahy Law. Doesn't this mean that Biden does have the authority to stop sending military aid but isn't, or am I misunderstanding something? Also, aside from Leahy Law why can't he veto the military aid?
Oh man, this is a doozy. You aren't wrong but I've got to get some sleep. To explain this is A LOT.
The thing is the Leahy Law doesn't put the power directly in the President's hands. It grants the vetting process to the Secretary of State. Which is a member of the cabinet of the President. Which I don't know how familiar you are with how the Executive Office works or not. But Secretary of State Antony Blinken is the one who wields the power to deny Israel's aid.
There's Executive Orders (EO) that the President can give but there's the whole "what if" Blinken quits given an EO and then we have to get the Senate involved which is currently 50-50 on Republicans and Democrats. Which that turns it even more complex and Senators can delay confirmation until after the election or if they're really bitter, until next year. Which means that everything that requires a Secretary of State would get put on pause.
I get that everyone thinks the President gets to have the final say, but the President orders people around on EOs, which the various Secretaries can just quit if they don't want to follow them, and then that kicks everything to the Senate. That's kind of a built in protection in our system of Government to prevent a President becoming a dictator. If a President wants XYZ done and the Secretary thinks that's bad, they quit and the Senate becomes involved potentially delaying the President forever.
There's way more background on why Blinken has only stopped two aids and also because of classification reasons, not every stopping of aid can be published, unless the President does so since the President has unilateral authority on classification markings (except for anything related to the name of spies and nuclear bomb designs, that is one of the few things that requires both the President and Congress to sign off on, there's a few other exceptions as well but I won't go into them).
But anyways, Blinken is the one who can stop aid. The President could order him, but he could also quit, which means the Senate would get involved, and I can explain why all of that would be messy if you need me to.
why can't he veto the military aid
The President only has veto power on bills that have passed both the House and the Senate. Once something becomes law, the President "has" to carry it out. There's a ton of background on "Executive Discretion" and any time the President wants to exercise discretion, Congress can sue, which then brings the matter into the other branch, the Judicial. Plenty of States that would sign on, to a Congressional suit (which that's a requirement for Congress to sue the President, at least one State has to join in).
So Biden could use Discretion to delay funding, and he's done that quite a few times, but he can't just outright NOT pay when the law requires him to do so. That discretion comes from a kind of EO called a "Reviewing Executive Order" and it requires a department to "review" ((insert whatever the topic is)). That's a delay, but it isn't a halt. The President has to follow the law as well. So if we have a law that says, "we provide $xxx to Israel's Iron Dome", we have to send that money to them at some point.
A lot of the funds that Israel is getting, is funding they secured before the Gaza invasion. There's been recent upping of that funding that Congress has passed, but that's been on things called Continuing Resolutions (CR). Republicans in the House (who are the ones who control what the US Budget is) have been using CRs to get choice things enacted. That's because Republicans in the House have passed rules on how a budget may be formed in the House that are impossible to comply with (which that's a whole long story). So if Democrats in the House refuse to accept the CRs the Republicans offer, the Government shuts down.
Anyways, that's been a lot already. If you need me to clear anything up, let me know. But Harris likely wouldn't have Blinken as Secretary of State, which would fix A WHOLE LOT. But I don't know, because if the election isn't kind to Democrats in the Senate and Republicans have a majority in the Senate, they could block Harris' Sec. of State unless they specifically pledged to support Israel. Now they could absolutely lie about that, but then Congress could also impeach them, but that would cut off aid to Israel for some time as that's not an easy process to impeach a secretary of state.
I just don’t get how people are looking at Harris’ stance as being pro-genocide.
Because they are, USA is currently fueling a genocide in gaza
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
I just don’t get how people are looking at Harris’ stance as being pro-genocide.
"Now that you know I don't listen to fuckall outside of my own bubble, sit down while I lecture you for several pages"
The two-state solution is a boondoggle.
There can only be a one state solution.
So make a choice: Israel or Palestine.
So make a choice: Israel or Palestine.
You say that like the choice hasn't already been made without the input of the voters.
im convinced at this point that the "don't vote or you support genocide" thing is a russian troll campaign
Been saying it for weeks. Nobody with half a brain would fall for that shit.
A vote against Harris is a vote against protecting America. That may not be true next election(fuck, I hope it's not), but right here...right now....it's true.
It will absolutely true next election. Democrats will keep undermining progressives and running weak and ineffective candidates until the dice fall badly and the fascists win. That's how these cycles always go.
Every election will be more dangerous than the one before until elections stop. The next Trump will be far more capable than the rapist toddler we're dealing with now.
I'm pretty sure this has been the scare tactic for the last 8 presidential elections of my lifetime
The genocide will continue no matter who wins. The argument is dumb.
Sure, but one side seems to be advocating for more of the same shittiness we've had for decades, and the other side for a final solution to the Palestinian problem. It's not like the choices are equal.
I've got a question for you... I'm sure you are familiar with the famous, "First They Came" sermon/poem/whatever by Martin Niemöller? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...
At what point during that poem would you consider a genocide underway? Would it be when they started murdering all of the communists? Or maybe after they eliminated all of the trade unionists?
Let's extend that poem to include all of the categories of people that the Nazis killed:
They started with trans people, was it a genocide yet? How about after they started including homosexuals?
Maybe it becomes a genocide when they go after the mentally and physically disabled?
Or does it only become a genocide when they go after the Jews?
Obviously, the answer is all of the fucking above.
Guess what: Genocide very much can and does get worse. Much much worse. This concept that it is all or nothing is completely ahistorical and illogical.
That's been my experience on Lemmy recently too. It feels like there is a push to disenfranchise to "teach them a lesson we dont support genocide by ensuring a somewhat more genocidal maniac gets in instead".
I get the sentiment, but it ignores the two party system, and not voting does not fix that broken system, it ensures it. And I think the trolls know this too.
somewhat more genocidal maniac
Somewhat?
It's the same in my Eastern European country - Russians run two troll campaigns:
It's the dame playbook everywhere they care to get results and undermine their enemies.
Pretty strong clues that it’s organized bullshit propaganda.
supporters rarely engage in real discussions and just repeat insulting slogans
To be fair, with a stance so immensely stupid, there isn't much else to say.
It's kind of obvious
Several of my alt accounts have been banned across the fediverse for calling out such nans. I figure if my alts get banned for that, then I should block them from my main.
(if anyone takes offense to me having "several" alts, that's because without using 3rd party apps you can't categorize interests like reddit's multis feature without just having multiple accounts with their own sub list.)
I’m* convinced
It's just the left eating itself. Many such cases.
Are you aware that USA spend 10 times as much money on war and propaganda than russia does? The current government of USA is fueling a genocide in gaza and supporting the fascist israel government. There sure is russian propaganda too around but keep in mind that is in the interest of the government to cover up its wrongdoing and keep trust among the public.
Or maybe people actually see what's going on and see children get shredded with America's permission, democratic permission, and with American bombs with American intelligence and say hey we don't want this to happen anymore.
Maybe they see the party that is supposedly the "good" party brutally shut down protests against a genocide funded by them inside college campuses and think oh hey, that doesn't seem like free speech.
Maybe they see a party just as bought out and in lockstep with billionaires and think oh hey, that's not democracy.
Maybe they see a party that for two election cycles in a row has stolen the candidacy -- more people wanted Bernie than Clinton in 2016 but they gave it to Hillary because why? "It was her turn"
Then when half the party was pissed and worried with Biden, did they hold a snap election? Like every other civilized developed country? Nah, they just said here you are, take kamala.
And kamala has just been like yes we will keep bombing kids.
Maybe Muslim Americans and other brown Americans are tired of for 25 years being both sides boogeyman. They just expect us to sit there and vote democrat while they spend 25 years telling everyone that they are terrorists, that they bomb places, that they hate America, that they are an other, a column that doesn't matter. And if trump wins it will be their fault again. Not the fault of the 55% white people who somehow think that he's okay.
Maybe you guys need to get your head out your asses and see that america is not a beacon on a hill, it's a 300.year old empire that is crumbling into the gutter in front of you, and when empires do that, fascism follows. And you lot really need to realize that at this point, whether it's Democrat or republican, it's fascist. There is no choice, just the illusion of one. And again, democrats are as bought out by billionaires as the Republicans are.
It's like going to the store and seeing 15 different varieties of the same candy but they're all made by the same company and taste just ever so slightly different.
And Trump straight up said that Israel needs to "finish the job" and that the Gaza Strip will make his beachfront property. So yeah, be sick of what's been going on. Most of us are. But also think of the consequences of the inactions if Trump becomes president. You'll also have to deal with that.
What's worse?
And what about the "vote for genocide or you support genocide-plus!" posts?
I've seen many: 'feel free to vote 3rd party, its okay to not support a genocidal candidate' very few 'dont vote or you support genocide' are you sure you're reading peoples posts correctly?
Hey look, Bernie right on it. Again.
You think he ever gets tired of being right all the time?
He probably gets tired of so many others being more popular and more incorrect.
We need a whole senate of inter generational Bernies.
Single-issue voters are ignorant to begin with, but failing to help stop another Trump presidency isn't the moral high ground. If you're in that group there's no point polishing your halo, because you are shitting on it.
It's the equivalent of "I can't save everyone, so I'll doom them instead!"
I agree with Michael Moore's theory that this was why many people voted for Trump in 2016. They felt ignored and powerless, so they said okay here, I'll vote for this asshole, see how you like that! It was an expensive lesson that I don't think the Democratic party has really paid attention to. Their response was to rethink their campaign strategies - many of them probably blamed their loss on trying to elect a woman for President - so they regrouped and managed to get Biden elected. But he didn't put any bold ideas forward. All he really did was be a Democrat in the White House instead of a Republican. I don't feel like Kamala Harris is playing that game. She really does want to move forward in a big way and not go back.
Single-issue voters are ignorant
I think killing is wrong. Feel free to call that ignorant.
Trump told bibi to "hurry up and finish the job. He will kill 10x as many Palestinians and say they deserved it.
He has also promised to "round up millions of illegals" in the US and put them in camps, itself a genocide. He will undoubtedly kill thousands doing it.
He also stated that he will use the military to eliminate " the enemy within," who he specially called leftists like yourself. He will kill people in the process.
Your choice should be pretty clear if you abhor killing.
Thinking killing is wrong is not ignorant. Deliberately ignoring the point is ignorant. If Harris loses Trump wins, and if Trump wins things will be a lot worse for Palestine. Refusing to help because you're standing on an imaginary moral high ground is both wrong AND ignorant, because you're clearly smart enough to look beyond your own righteousness. You have no excuse.
So genocide is a single issue to you, like school vouchers or fema funding? I think that says a lot about you. None of it good.
edit: and please, downvote away if you dont agree, But notice how close the election is and how many upvotes this viewpoint has. 28 up to 70 down is what I see at this point. If Harris loses it will be because she flatly ignored this ~30% of of Dem voters.
I mean its likely trump will continue the genocide for people who managed to flee to the US by revoking the legal status of refugees given he seems to think the word "palestinian" means "terrorist"
The cruel calculus is that Netanyahu wants trump to win.
Do you hold your nose and vote Harris to deny Netanyahu another victory or do you roll over entirely for Netanyahu and let him have an assistant in genocide with Trump? What is the lesser of two evils here?
Netanyahu, at least, will be thrilled to hear palestinians are not voting for Kamala because of him.
Are you replying to LovableSidekick? The grandparent post didn't mention genocide.
So genocide is a single issue to you, like school vouchers or fema funding?
Hey now. Vote for Kamala and you can get genocide, school privatization, and more underfunded climate disasters. You don't have to choose.
Dems of 2024 have fully ingested the Republican platform of 2004. That's why the Cheneys are campaigning for the Harris ticket.
So genocide is a single issue to you, like school vouchers or fema funding?
Hey now. Vote for Kamala and you can get genocide, school privatization, and more underfunded climate disasters. You don't have to choose.
Dems of 2024 have fully ingested the Republican platform of 2004. That's why the Cheneys are campaigning for the Harris ticket.
I knew all these single issue fake leftists were full of shit when it was revealed that Trump has been sabotaging peace talks and they weren't immediately outraged by that revelation.
Nah, they all have a political objective, and it doesn't involve peace in the middle east. Their objective is to use genocide as a political wedge to divide the left and get Trump elected.
I knew all these single issue fake leftists were full of shit when it was revealed that Trump has been sabotaging peace talks and they weren’t immediately outraged by that revelation.
Why would anyone even be surprised by that? We're mad because Democrats see what's happening between Trump and Netanyahu and are doing what Netanyahu wants anyway.
There is a lot more going on in the Middle East than any American citizen can understand. Voting for ANY candidate will not fix it. Even if we voted in a candidate that vehemently opposed Israel, nothing would change. Our military and I intelligence network there is dependent on a strong Israel.
Unfortunately there is nothing we can do about it except purge congress and get all anti Israel politicians. Good luck making that happen.
Electoral politics is a fickle thing. If Harris makes a statement either way on Palestine, she will lose.
I just can't seem to understand why nobody seems to get this.
Edit: I honestly can't wait until November 6th when all of these bullshit, brand new accounts astroturfing for third parties and doing everything they can to get the fascist elected, mysteriously disappear.
And if they don't, well, I guess this website isn't for me.
I’m a leftist. I don’t want you to change whoever you’re voting for, vote what you feel is right.
What I do want you to do is be honest. I believe that the only way we can fix things is to admit the reality of the situation that we’re in.
I want you to admit that you’re voting for a genocidal candidate. Because either way if you’re voting Trump or Harris, you’re voting a genocidal candidate.
Once you can admit that, then we can start thinking about fixing it.
If you’re just going to shove your head in the sand and refuse to acknowledge your complicity in the system, then you are a slave to it.
I have not seen many leftists not agree that both votes are for genocide - that's just a given.
But protesting the system during the election is daft. Do you want genocide, or more genocide? You are not a slave to the system if you vote and then actually do something about it to change it.
Ignoring the current system is plain ignorance. Voting doesn't make you a slave. Voting and giving up makes you a slave. How about vote and campaign for change instead. Despair does not lead to change.
I 100% agree that this is classic manufactured consent, and there is no real choice in this election.
I also want there to be a real choice in the future. The least we can do in the future is get ranked choice voting and do away with the electoral college. Almost literally the least; those are so bare minimum that they can't even be called radical.
I sit here with my hand in the sand.
Your reading comprehension is fucking atrocious, then. Even when Biden was the candidate, the vast majority has been saying "ok, continuing to support Isreal as they commit war atrocities is bad, but Trump would be much worse" for Gaza, and a ton of other things. Like democracy in America, for starters"
There are no lines to read between. It's the bold text that we accept that a vote for Dems is a vote for genocide. But given no other plausible alternative, and the enormous risk to a plethora of other issues that Trump represents, voting for less genocide is the best option on the table.
But you are well aware this. You're just arguing under false pretext to strawman your way to voter disenfranchisement.
See, we can actually read between lines here.
It's funny how people who "hate both parties" only ever wanna criticize the Left
Or when he invited Netanyahu to Mar-a-lago in july 2024.
Calling a genocide a “single issue” is offensive as fuck. It’s not fake leftist. Liberals can continue to cry and blame everyone else but themselves when they lose.
It’s really easy. Kamala harris could change her view on israel tomorrow, but she won’t. After all, AIPAC owns both parties.
If the dems gave a flying fuck about “preventing fascism” they would do whatever it takes. They won’t.
Calling a genocide a “single issue” is offensive as fuck.
It's literally objective reality. It is one single issue among many. If you're unwilling to consider other issues when voting just because one of them is genocide, that makes it a single issue and it makes you a single issue voter.
I don't give a fuck if that offends you. Get lost.
I knew all these single issue fake leftists were full of shit when it was revealed that Trump has been sabotaging peace talks and they weren't immediately outraged by that revelation.
Sorry, but if people aren't free to critique their party funding genocide and aren't free to protest genocide without " helping the enemy", then our system has already fallen to authoritarianism.
Don't get me wrong, I am voting for Harris. But our two party system is a fucking farce. It makes a mockery of every ideal that democracy is supposed to represent. Authority is supposed to be given from the consent of the people. But most Americans agree that our two party system is broken and yet our politicians have made it impossible for us to fix or replace our broken system because they benefit from it. A system forced on us by a minority for their benefit against the will of the majority is the complete opposite of a democracy.
💯
Trump has been sabotaging peace talks
This is pure horseshit. Netanyahu has been stringing Biden along for half his career. Biden has willingly turned a blind eye to Israeli war crimes going back 30 years.
Trying to deflect decades of failed US middle east policy - policy that Biden helped construct first as Senator, then as VP, and finally as President - and blame it on a single phone call Trump made to egg Netanyahu on is dishonest to the point of denialism.
Their objective is to use genocide as a political wedge
We're doing "Human Shields" discourse again. It's the Palestinian American's fault for not endorsing the genocide of their immediate friends and family.
Scratch a fucking liberal...
Trump has been sabotaging peace talks
This is pure horseshit.
It’s the Palestinian American’s fault for not endorsing the genocide of their immediate friends and family.
Voting isn't a love letter, it's a chess move. Biden, Harris and other establishment liberals absolutely deserve to be relentlessly mocked and criticized (and frankly indicted) for cheerleading Israel's genocide, but aiding in the political victory of someone twice as genocidal as them, and who also intends to end democracy and target his political opponents would be a bad move.
Where where these people of moral conscience when Bernie had a shot?
it's not like this shitshow sprung up overnight.
They voted for Hillary, because the party decided it was her turn and made everyone else drop out and endorse her.
That's right. And then they conveniently forgot about the following midterms.
Hey, they were having brunch.
I guarantee you that if you polled these morons they'd know next to nothing about Israel, or Palestine, their respective histories, or the conflict, or the players, or foreign policy, or the USAs influence in the region.
These people got hooked on this conflict via tiktok, probably funded by Russian propaganda machines and are too stupid to realize it.
A truly black and white, good VS evil war is actually raging right now in Ukraine, yet these morons are silent on that one. I wonder why 🤔
A truly black and white, good VS evil war is actually raging right now in Ukraine, yet these morons are silent on that one. I wonder why 🤔
Because we're not arming the bad guys in that one genius. Russia is also a nuclear power and most people still don't think MAD is a good idea if you're suggesting we should be advocating for open warfare against russia.
The idea that not voting is some form of protest that has material consequences for the ruling class is ahistorical. It took centuries of struggle to attain universal suffrage. The people in power are perfectly happy to have only a small fraction of the demos exerting any political power at all; in fact this is how most civilizations have functioned for the past few thousand years.
Actually it took centuries of people revolting and overthrowing old systems of government, not them kowtowing to party 1 and party 1a.
Ok so how does not voting help with this?
I just need anyone who thinks about skipping voting to "Save Palestine" to refer to this graph
Btw, there's a third choice.. it's pulling the Jill Stein lever.
The Jill Stein Lever is made of rubber and not actually connected to anything, so pulling it will accomplish two things "Jack" and "Shit"
I feel like the US flag should also be on top.
So there's no flag of Armenia, but there are flags of Ukraine and Palestine.
April 2016 clashes happened, when Democrats were in power. Autumn 2020 war - when Republicans were in power. September 2022 and September 2023 - when Democrats were in power. Of these it's 1:1 for election years, and 2:0 against Democrats otherwise.
(All the "Russian ally" types - keep walking, as if there were competing offers, and Palestine is not in any way NATO-aligned either.)
Glad ANCA took the position of endorsing any party only after it does something real on Armenian issues. Should have done that 20 years ago.
(All the "don't care what happens to Armenia, that doesn't affect me" types - keep walking.)
This is one issue, but all others are similar in reality.
Instead of making progress, you have to vote for Harris to avoid regress, and that's 4 more years. Right now Democrats are in power, what will they do differently after the election? Trump is a very convenient opponent, even his voters hate him, they just hate some other groups more.
"(but worse)" is genocide denial.
And it's an infuriating joke how many of those flags on the top belong on the bottom as well
Trump is 100x worse. Liberals might be in bed with conservatives on 90% of issues, but fascists actually want to use the military against us.
I upset people when I reject the idea that we are voting to save democracy because I believe the US's two party system is an insult to every ideal that democracy stands for, but I am still voting for Harris. Vote to save our country from fascism. Vote to keep your friends and family from being rounded up for supporting Healthcare for all.
Look, maybe they just don't know how this will play out. By all means let them trade their vote away for teh feelz and directly condemn an entire countries residents to death.
Trust me bro, they care a ton about Palestine, they aren't using civilian deaths to leverage any political bullshit I swear.
We're dealing with people who think the best way to send a message is to hurt more people and destroy democratic institutions.
They watched the Titanic and thought the people losing their shit and dragging everyone down with them was a good play in a crisis.
At least if the ship goes down the rich quarters will be below water too! That way they'll learn to treat us better next time.
Funny how the people who sit on the fence always seem to parrot the current claims right wing media is making
I don't actually believe a lot of these people are undecided
Are people really claiming Trump isn't worse? I think it's more that people think that Harris may be better than Trump (pretty low bar there), but still too bad to vote for. Voting for the lesser evil only goes so far. At some point the lesser evil is still too far from one's own ideals that voting for them isn't an option. Different people will obviously draw that line in different places and if I lived in the USA, I'd probably begrudgingly vote for Harris in the coming election.
Democrats basically slandering anyone who refuses to vote for their candidate as Trump supporters is fucking stupid and will hardly convince anyone to change their minds. Especially when it seems democrats have had nothing to offer the left other than "the other side is worse" for as far back as I can remember. If they want the left's votes, they need to earn them.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't want people to get the wrong idea. Voting in FPTP is not the same as approval.
Exactly. If you keep playing the "vote blue no matter who" playbook, progressive change will never happen from within
At some point the lesser evil is still too far from one’s own ideals that voting for them isn’t an option.
I am ready to compromise on all sorts of ideals. A smaller increase in minimum wage? Okay. A movement towards accepting trans people? Okay. But, when it comes to killing innocent people, I can't accept a number above zero. That's just a value that I have, because I don't like innocent people killed. If the price of political participation is voting for some innocent people being killed, I don't wish to participate, personally.
Voting for the lesser evil only goes so far.
Perhaps it goes so far as to evil existing while moving more slowly. My evidence for this belief is the world around us: is it getting better?
Democrats basically slandering anyone who refuses to vote for their candidate as Trump supporters is fucking stupid and will hardly convince anyone to change their minds.
Agreed. What would convince me is being very much against killing innocent people.
Here's the reality; we're all playing the trolley problem but it's with real people and unfortunately the only options are kill more people or kill less people. If you know that by not voting you're killing more people then you can't claim you're not responsible for their deaths.
If you really care go out and protest the system after the election. Choosing to let more people die now is a protest but you have blood on your hands.
This is a very confusing stance, you’re advocating for not voting while not being a US citizen so you can’t vote??
And you completely misunderstand first past the post voting. You have it in the UK too. It’s how labor got elected, your far right party split the conservative vote. The risk here is that due to the US’ electoral college system a select few states (incl. TX, NC, GA, FL, VA, NV, ME not just the rust belt strip) will decide the election. Thus for those states, someone who could vote must vote for the Dems.
Any possible vote not for the Dems will help the Repubs get closer to clinching those close states, whether it’s no-vote or one of the virtue-signaling 3rd party candidates. (Yes, they only split the vote and are worthless for reducing harm, build 3rd party from local up)
Only one of two candidates will win thanks to FPTP. Both candidates will continue to enable genocide. But one candidate - Trump - will target trans people and will target women and will target minorities at home. So if you are a US citizen who can vote, you do the proper ethical thing: you vote for harm reduction via voting for the Democrats.
A vote is not an endorsement, you don’t have to feel tied to it; it’s an infinitesimal push to a better atmosphere to advocate for the end of the genocide. If Trump is in power left-leaning people will be split putting out fires: trying to keep trans people alive, trying to get women proper healthcare, trying to keep minorities from being rounded up. There will be less bandwidth for stopping the genocide, much less pushing for more progressive change.
In short, the only ethical move is to vote if you’re a US citizen to mitigate harm and improve the progressive landscape to be able to maximalize effort towards ending the genocide. The only ethical move if you’re not a US citizen is to not advocate for not voting for the democrats; might as well be a Russian bot at that point.
“Socialists” reading this:
I don't support Republicans that includes the chatgpt lady running as one. People told her what the deal was either change course or lose. She decided to embrace Dick Cheney and pledge her undying support for the country doing the Genocide. I still think people should vote and take what route they think will work. The whole Harris pitch has shifted to maybe she will change her mind down the road isn't much better.
You can always leave the country. The biggest leverage you have over your country is you staying there and keep paying taxes. There is always a choice.
Which is happening in Israel: https://www.npr.org/2024/09/17/g-s1-22080/israel-emigration-gaza-war
And is happening in Russia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_emigration_during_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
Then please leave. We don't want you.
Never come back.
(We both know you're not American so I'm going to block your FSB ass now)
Is Russian paranoia the Qanon for the left? Anytime there is a challenge it's immediately where people go.
Good lord you missed the point. Yes I will leave your precious fucked up country ahah block block hurry up
Except your money doesn't fund the US federal government. The federal government funds everyone with its money.
You can't tax back money that hasn't been created first
Yes, but it’s not only taxes, it’s your expenses, your kids, your job etc… we take for granted our contribution to our land and community.
Well I'm not voting for him either.
Bernie was against a ceasefire for at least three months. He claimed Israel has the right to defend themselves.
Bernie is responsible for manufacturing the consent that let the genocide continue this long.
Now it is coming back to bite the Democrats. And all Bernie can say is "Trump is worse". Take a hike old man.
Bernie was against a ceasefire for at least three months.
Israel is a very odd country, as it seems to be fuelled by killing innocent people and stealing their land illegally. People say that the country would disappear, and all its citizens, if a stop was put to that.
Trump is worse because he's all about America first.
What he says and what he does are not the same thing. Trump is about Trump First, and everyone else never.
God forbid Biden/Harris actually change their handling of Israel.
They always expect the millions of voters to change rather than the dozens of politicians to change to align with the voters.
Biden is in charge right now, not Harris.
And she explicitly said that she wouldn't change anything
Donors think of voters/voting as "the fifth column."
God forbid Biden/Harris actually change their handling of Israel.
They watched Seymour Skinner ask himself "Am I out of touch?" and decided that he was completely correct when he decided "No, it's the children who are wrong."
Bernie has fallen off
Bernie owns your ass
Too late, old geezer... Time to retire
Too late/too old to point out that nothing good will come from putting Trump behind the wheel, again?
I don't think so.. Even my demented mother, currently on her deathbed*, understands what a moron and potential plague Trump is.
Bernie is, in my humble opinion, one of the smartest, least selfish people, with an actual desire to do good, to go after the presidency in quite some time. So, of course that never happened.
*I'm on my way to say my final goodbyes as I write this, and so I'm a bit torn up and trying to distract my mind with a bit of Lemmy
I'm so sorry to hear that. It sounds like she's a smart woman. One stranger to another, if you need someone to vent to, feel free to dm me ❤️
You are no better than any red hat
Democrats have taken the stance that it’s absolutely UNTHINKABLE that they could possibly not support a genocide, instead full bore opting that the other side’s genocide support is somehow worse. Man, fuck these people so hard.
Like it or not, a significant portion of the country is in favor of supporting Israel, and so they have to walk the line of supporting Israel without supporting genocide, because if they don't they also lose.
Republicans can campaign on being pro-genocide, give weapons to Israel on the condition they use them with less discretion, and make a campaign promise to deny asylum to any refugees and they don't lose a vote.
Democrats have to support Israel and Palestine, which is nearly impossible to do without a degree of "please don't use this gun wrong like you have every other time".
If you actually don't see how a Republican administration would be vastly worse for Palestinians, I don't know what to tell you.
Like it or not, a significant portion of the country is in favor of supporting Israel,
Straight up not true to an extent that electorally matters. The only people who would drop Harris for supporting Palestine are the republican voters she's needlessly trying to court. Meanwhile at this rate she's losing/already lost Michigan and at least one other swing state with a significant Muslim population (there are a few of them). Her neglect of her voter base is what will do her in.
Democrats have taken the stance that it’s absolutely UNTHINKABLE that they could possibly not support a genocide
"It's just what happens!!!"
I'm ready for the Dems to roll over when abortion is banned and the numbers of women dying in childbirth skyrocket. "The voters have decided. This is just what happens!" Instead they will shift the Overton window to "women should be jailed for 5 years rather than 10 when they have a miscarriage which looks like an abortion". I hope this statement is a joke, and not actually a prediction.
Recent post around here said "democrats will shift to the right if they lose". Yes that overton window will be "only get 1 year prison if they accuse the father of rape" shift.
Yes, Trump is even worse. But killing innocent people is still so bad that I am harmed by it being politically acceptable.
If politics is killing innocent people more nicely ('yeah, that's bad, but it just happens') or more nastily ('haw haw stupid children'), I no longer care about politics.
Let's say Trump gets elected, and ten years from now, some kid asks you, "What did you do to prevent this?"
Are you going to tell them you just didn't care enough to bother?
ten years from now, some kid asks you
Ten years from now, a Palestinian child asks you, but they never existed, because their parents were killed.
In that same 10 year, some kid asks, what did liberals do to prevent this during Biden's term.
You can respond we were at brunch we didn't notice what was going on.
I'm against innocent people being killed. I'm sorry that upsets you. It may well be that, under Trump, more innocent people will be killed. Still, I have the preference of voting for people who reduce the number of innocent people being killed, rather than voting for people who condone it.
Yes, Trump is even worse. But killing innocent people is still so bad that I am harmed by it being politically acceptable. Humans will destroy themselves because they lack compassion for other living beings, and that's just what it is. You can get angry at me because I don't like that, but that's just another lack of compassion, and I won't be surprised.
I'm going to point at the Green Party, one of the 3 major parties in the current election, and at the 3 or 4 smaller parties that are gaining traction, then I am going to explain to them that 10 years ago, the country was deeply gripped by a plutocratic fascist duopoly and I did what was necessary to combat that fascism while others accepted it and pledged to it because it was in their best interest to just fall in line.
Then I will encourage them never to kiss the ring of fascism and genocide in order to preserve their own personal feelings of security.
If politics is killing innocent people
It's not just politics, it's a rule of law. We have passed in the past under different administrations laws requiring funding to the Israeli state. Only via our legal process can we undo that. Now there are some laws that allow the President to suspend funding that has been legally appropriated, but those only go so far.
It's a will of Congress and the understanding that we are a nation of laws, that money keeps funneling towards Israel. But at the same time there are some bending of the laws via creative justification that allows us to setup a floating pier and deliver supplies to the Palestinians.
And Israel doesn't want aid being delivered by the United States because at the same time it allows them to begin collecting evidence against Israel's current abuse of human rights.
There has to be an understanding that there is a process by which an administration has to follow. It's dumb we have that process, I won't deny that, but until Congress gets off it's collective ass and change that, we have to follow that process. Otherwise, just doing whatever opens the door for folks to do whatever in the opposite direction as well and have zero recourse.
But killing innocent people is still so bad that I am harmed by it being politically acceptable
It's not acceptable but at the same time we can have two takes to it. We either follow our laws or we don't. Everything that has created this situation, that didn't happen overnight. The laws that provide unquestionable aid to Israel, those weren't passed in the last four years. It takes time to undo those things. Now that does provide a means for innocent people to die and you have every right to be disgusted by it. I will absolutely not tell you, that your opinion is incorrect. It's dumb that we've put ourselves into this position.
But that said, absent any system, this "I no longer care about politics", the ONLY thing that will do is ensure the complete and effective eradication of these people. The "I no longer care about politics" stance is synonymous with the "I don't care if these innocent people are wiped from this Earth."
This is a difficult conflict and it's wild that so many people toss their hands into the air and shout "I don't care anymore!!" the second the conflict actually gets into one of it's really difficult phases. If this phase of the conflict troubles you, you are not an ally for any means of protecting innocents that you think you are. Protection of people's lives is dirty ass work, if the messiness of the politics of this troubles you, you wouldn't be able to save anyone anyway. It may come as a surprise to many here, but humanitarian crisis like this are messy affairs, shit is complex, and nobody ever walks away hands clean. Who knew the world was like this?
People seem to forget that our government was intentionally created to be hard to change.
But that said, absent any system, this “I no longer care about politics”, the ONLY thing that will do is ensure the complete and effective eradication of these people. The “I no longer care about politics” stance is synonymous with the “I don’t care if these innocent people are wiped from this Earth.”
I disagree. I care very much about innocent lives, but I don't care much for a political system which views those lives as a necessary price to pay for diplomacy.
Ho Chi Minh knew all about America's long history of slavery and genocide. He knew that and he welcomed the Americans who came to fight the Japanese.
Any questions?
Help me I'm being harmed by Biden