2mo ago

Has anyone regretted buying a fully electric car?

I need a new car, and I really want to go full electric. I'm wondering if anyone regrets buying one? What are the downsides?

229 comments

Yeah, I bought a Tesla and now regret it because Elon is a dipshit.
That said, I've gone over 38,000 miles for less than $900 in electricity. I haven't had to deal with oil changes or any other maintenance items other than tire rotations and tire replacement (the latter was of my own accord they actually said I didn't need to yet, at the time).
I recently did a nearly 4hr trip with no need to charge on the way, and at my destination basically filled back up in something like 25 minutes while checking in to my hotel. So, no range anxiety for me.
The ride is nice, the features are helpful to me, and I have had no other issues with the vehicle.
So if it weren't for Elon I'd love it. I still like it, but I just hate being seen in it now. It's paid off so the financial cost of getting some other EV doesn't make a ton of sense right now, so I guess I'll just drive it until it dies...which at this rate might be a long-ass time.
- I read somewhere that people have bumpersticks and stuff that say things like "I got the car before he went crazy" or "if I knew him then, I wouldn't have bought it"
  
  I'm not a huge fan of bumper stickers, but I might make an exception for this 🤔
- Same boat here. I bought mine back when Elon was just “juvenile weirdo who makes dick jokes and smoked weed with Joe Rogan”. Best car I’ve ever owned hands down, no intention to buy anything Elon is selling ever again.
- My biggest non-Elon complaint is the lack of Vehicle to Load. That is such an amazingly useful feature that’s ONLY AVAILABLE on the garbage cybertruck.
  
  Isn't the Cybertruck pretty bad in that regard as well for its size?
- This is what I'll now show to lemmy when they again run in their denial circles about tesla being a bad car, or the company going bankrupt soon.

I like the electric part.
What I don't like is that it's a steaming heap of spy-ware on wheels with no opt-out ability.
Which may lead to more expensive insurance depending on your driving style, or could be abused for even more nefarious reasons.
- That's not limited to EVs, though. Most modern cars have the same antifeatures.
  
  True, but I have an old ICE that I can keep running for a while. The question is should I spend more than it is worth on maintenance?
  
  A lot of the ice ones can still be bypassed, at least. I dunno if it's so easy all the all electric tire chewers.
- The spyware you are mentioning is in gas cars too. It isn’t exclusive to EVs it is a problem with all new cars.
- You'd be hard pressed to find any modern car that isn't doing that.
- I was able to get my Toyota's DCM disabled and did a data collection opt-out with the company. It was a total pain in the ass and they tried very hard to dissuade me, but it is possible (depending on manufacturer).
  
  Whoa really? How did you figure it out? I'd love to do that with my car, even if it's a pain.
- I disabled the OnStar unit on mine and don't use any of it's associated apps.

Make sure that the car matches your expectations.
Don't trust their range claims, most of the time they are exaggerated and only able to get that range on a perfect day doing constant 45mph without hills.
Do you have a reliable place to charge it? If you don't have a personal parking place, and cannot install a charger at said place, trusting you have the range you need gets difficult, and expensive. As you have to rely on public chargers that are not very reliable, and worse for battery longevity (level 3 chargers)
Speaking of range. What range do you actually NEED? My opinion is the minimum range should be double the normal daily commute, as most level 2 chargers can add ~18 miles/he charging (overnight charge means 144 miles charge). Double your commute gives you a buffer for the heater, or the grocery run after work. For most people this is only 80 miles.... which almost every electric only car can do without issues.
Is the cost worth the vehicle? Buying new is expensive, buying used can be risky. Do your research thoroughly and you'll be able to decide what fits what you NEED (and that answer may easily be a used ICE vehicle instead)
I've had a full electric vehicle for 5+ years now as my daily. But I have always had a personal parking place, with a level 2 charger. I consider electric only to be a commuter car at best. It's not going to be able to do a road trip. And depending on the car and the commute may even not be able to do a grocery run after work some days. If you have another car that is ICE that you can keep for those times, cool. Or if you are ok with planning, and rent a car when you want to do a road trip, great.
Personally I suggest a plug in hybrid for anyone who can only have one car, and is considering going electric. Prius prime, Chevy volt, Chrysler Pacifica are the ones that have enough range for a short commute, the rest are trying but just haven't gotten there yet.
- I consider electric only to be a commuter car at best. It’s not going to be able to do a road trip. And depending on the car and the commute may even not be able to do a grocery run after work some days.
  I really wonder what kind of car you drive. Sounds like a Nissan Leaf or something.
  I'll share a couple of anecdotes regarding my experience with EVs:
  My parents live on a farm in rural Maine. They are on their second Chevy Bolt (first was a lease, and they liked it so much that they upgraded to a later generation when the lease expired). It's an inexpensive, no-frills EV that is their primary means of transportation. Living in the country, the shortest trip they take is likely to be at least 20 miles round-trip. In the past, I've borrowed that car for an overnight trip to Vermont. We made sure to charge it at home before the leaving, and drove to Vermont without needing to stop. I don't recall the exact distance, but it was about 4 hours of driving through rolling hills. We charged it again in Vermont, and drove home the next day.
  My partner and I have a 2023 Hyundai Ioniq 5 that we bought used for $28k. It's all-wheel drive and has a battery warmer, both of which are helpful in cold climates. We do not have a charger at home. My wife's commute is 20 miles round trip, and we are able to charge the car where she works, which we do roughly once a week. Although the car itself is capable of charging very quickly, the charger available to us is a low-power home charger, so it's nice to be able to leave it plugged in during the full work day. We don't hesitate to take this car on longer trips, especially if they take the interstate highway system or pass through major cities, where faster charging is always available.
  When I bought the car, it was 150 miles away from my house. It was charged to 100% when I picked it up, and the car estimated 300 miles of range. We arrived at home with 50% charge remaining, so I'd say the 300 mile range was pretty accurate.
  With this car and our charging habits, daily driving doesn't really require any special thought or planning at all. For longer trips, anything less than a 150 mile round trip requires no more planning than "I should make sure to charge it within a day or so of the trip, if possible." For a trip in the 250 mile range, I would definitely prefer to start fully charged, if possible, otherwise I'd want to explore charging options along the way. Only if going over that would I definitely feel the need to investigate charging options at my destination or along the route. A home charger would make things even simpler, but as it is it's so low-stress that we don't feel a lot of urgency to get one installed.
  I recommend reading Tim Bray's experiences with several years of EV-only ownership, including some long (1000+ mile) road trips in Canada. Here are a couple:
  5 year retrospective
  An in-depth report of a 1000 mile trip from Vancouver, BC to Regina, Saskatchewan
  
  I live in the western us, where 150 miles isn't all that far, and 200 between compatible fast chargers can be normal depending on where you're driving.
  In the end it's all about everyone's personal situation. Mine is, that battery is only a commuter because there's no way I can afford the 400+ mile cars (nor am I interested in them anyways)
- I've found that buying used is fine if the car is still under the manufacturers original warranty. Better yet if it has the premium/extended warranty package.
  That's basically the only warranty that you would care about (and actually want to extend), most other warranties have so many exclusions that they're not worth it. And definitely ignore anyone calling you telling you that they've "been trying to reach you about your cars extended warranty."
- I’ve found the range is better than what they claim for stop and go city driving due to regen braking. But otherwise the range estimate is about as accurate as the miles per gallon estimate on a gas car.
  It is definitely way cheaper to own than a gas car.
- Double your commute gives you a buffer for the heater, or the grocery run after work. For most people this is only 80 miles.... which almost every electric only car can do without issues.
  Is the cost worth the vehicle?
  This is where I get grumpy. I feel like that kind of range is a different category of vehicle, and it should be significantly cheaper than an ICEV, since it means I need to plan around the range.
  I realize it's the size of the battery pack, so it isn't where most of the cost of the vehicle comes from, but still.
  When it's time to replace my current vehicle, I'll probably go PHEV. But ideally public transit will be solved, so I won't need to. 🤣
  
  That kind of range is a different vehicle. My 500e I bought for 7k. It's the perfect commuter.
  Do you really NEED to be able to drive 300 miles every day? If so, battery isn't likely for you. And if you don't need to, why cry that it can't?
  
  If you buy a PHEV be prepared for the cost of a gas car and an EV combined
- Spot on. Another thing to consider is weather. EVs perform worse in cold weather - lower ranger and slower charging. Some manufacturers are worse than others. Preconditioning while plugged in is super helpful in below freezing temperatures and use the heated seats and heated steering wheel instead of climate control if you can.
  Just needs some research if you live somewhere where below freezing temperatures occur at times in a year. Absolutely not a reason to avoid EVs altogether, just know the limitations, what to expect, and how to best mitigate some of the limitations.
- as most level 2 chargers can add ~18 miles/he charging (overnight charge means 144 miles charge).
  Level 2 EVSEs (the charger is actually in the car) have a wide cross-section of power delivery. Portable units are usually limited to ~20 amps and will do this level of charge. Installed units with a sufficient circuit can charge at a rate 40 - 60 miles / hour. They are also considerably more expensive and should be installed by an electrician (adding more cost).
  For the record, Level 1 EVSE's (that plug into a US 110v outlet) only do 3 - 5 miles/hour. Important to know for US renters who might not be able to get a 220v circuit to their parking spot.
- Teslas are exaggerated, the rest of the market is dead on for range estimates. EVs are great for road trips, you have to stop for bathroom breaks anyway. L1 chargers at home are fine and L2 chargers get you through every day perfectly fine. You only really need L3 for road trips.
  
  Mine is not a Tesla, and its range is exaggerated... Or at least its range has a hidden asterisk that would read "under ideal conditions with a gentle driving style." It self-adjusts based on my recent driving history, and I mostly don't let the battery get low enough that I have to care about how precise it is... But it definitely skews heavily optimistic, especially when I first bought the car. It's roughly the same in that regard as a Tesla is, according to the Tesla drivers I know.
- Is the cost worth the vehicle? Buying new is expensive, buying used can be risky. Do your research thoroughly and you'll be able to decide what fits what you NEED (and that answer may easily be a used ICE vehicle instead)
  This is one of the rare cases where, at least for right now, leasing a new vehicle may make more sense financially than purchasing outright. For one thing, many more cars are eligible for the $7500 federal tax rebate when leased instead of purchased. For another, used electric vehicles seem to lose their value a lot more than ICE vehicles. This is a combination of newer, better cars being released at lower prices than previous vehicles and consumers being unsure of the capacities of older battery packs. The latter is seeming to be less of an issue than feared based on preliminary data, but we really only have long-term results for a few models. The former is much more volatile from the market, though. Elon Musk single-handedly tanked used car values when he dropped prices on model 3 and Y vehicles, and it happens every time they cut prices, but Tesla is not the only electric manufacturer that’s been cutting prices on new cars. While manufacturers would love to sell for high prices, the reality is they need a larger market to be profitable from economies of scale, so as they reduce costs there’s been a general trend to cut prices too, either by cutting prices on existing models or introducing new, less-expensive models.
  All of that is to say, it looks like the leasing companies aren’t factoring in enough depreciation on current leases. A lease is essentially you paying for the depreciation of the car. If you’re paying for a $50,000 car to be worth $35,00 in two years but it actually ends up being worth $25,000 in that time you’ve come out ahead, especially compared to if you bought it and tried to sell it yourself.
- worse for battery longevity (level 3 chargers)
  Is this because the power on fast charges is too high and bad for batteries in the long run?
  
  Battery temperature management seems to be a key limiting factor.
  At least a few years ago, and likely still, the reasons and conditions under which the barrier layers in the battery degrade were not super well understood. Heat seems to be a key contributing factor and charging a battery quickly warms up the battery and I suppose not fully evenly within a cell. Not knowing the complete extent of this makes the early LEAF's lack of actively cooled battery a reasonable choice. Before that, the batteries of earliest Prius cars held up way longer than expected.
  Like with a phone: heat and cold is not super awesome for the battery. It seems heat is especially bad for longevity.
  
  Not "too high"technically. But does put more load on the battery, causing more dendritic growth in the cells.
  
  Its not to high or bad for them, it's more like it just pushes the system to its max over and over. They are designed for fast charging.
  Its like stretching a rubber band that can go to 3ft over and over. Its part of its design, but it will cause more wear and tear then just stretching it a few inches.
- If you're pushing for the lowest range, lowest cost EV that covers your daily needs, it will be a commuter-only car.
- This wall of text is like an EV prophylactic

I own 2 Teslas and an electric lawnmower since 2018 and I live in the Arctic Chicago area. No regrets besides Elon turning out to be a shitlord.
- I am exactly you except I live in the south.
  
  Enjoy the nice weather then, unless you're so far south your life is at risk... In which case please don't store your lithium batteries where you store your standing water.
- I’m in New England and have had a Tesla for 3 years now. Two years ago we drove it down to South Carolina & back. No issues at all thanks to their supercharger network.

Downsides: Have to go to a gas station to find a squeegee to clean the windows.
Upsides: You have no other reason to go to a gas station.
- Sometimes you need to check your tire pressure, too.
  The general reduction in scheduled maintenance requirements is really wonderful.
  
  My EV has onboard pressure monitoring. And came with a little electric tire pump.
  
  Too bad if you buy one with a long enough range to completely replace the need to also own an ice vehicle you weigh so much that you have to buy more expensive tires and still need to replace those more often.
- I bought my very own gas station squeegee at a car parts store . Life-changing events.
  
  I better get mine, soon.
- What about for gas station sushi?
  
  Good name for a band.
  
  Heh. Now that's a party.
- Recharge the car when you're away from home?
  Most large gas stations I've been to have chargers now.
  
  Good to know. I do more road trips now that I'm not driving an ICE car. Plugshare does list those stations. I have a certain antipathy for 'petrol' companies. Something to do with the demise of the human species, to which I'm reasonably concerned about.

I've gone from the Chevy Volt, to the Bolt, to a Polestar 2, to a Ford Mach E. 7 years in EVs, around 100k miles, with no regrets and no intention of going back to ICE.
I'm not even sure what the downsides are. Maybe longer trips require a tiny bit more planning? The infotainment systems do all the work though, telling me where to stop and how long to charge.
- Dang 4 cars in 7 years?
  
  Yeah that's insanely wasteful

I haven't regretted it. Did a road trip across the country. Takes more planning because chargers are more sparse than gas stations, but totally doable. Having a place to charge is a must. I lived in an apartment complex without charging and REALLY had to plan my charging sessions or it could get stuck in the parking garage.
- Yeah, I stayed with my parents for a few months while I was house hunting and being limited to Level 1 charging was challenging. I couldn't recover a full commute's worth of charge overnight and would start each day with progressively less charge, so I'd have to swing by a L3 charger once a week or so. Still cheaper than gas though.

Privacy and security concerns, most of them are like big tech on wheels. See Telsa and others spying on users during intimate moments. Also most have major security vulnerabilities.
- This is the case with all newer cars. If you're avoiding EVs for privacy then the same reason applies to any car with OnStar, OTA updates, apps for your phone (remote start, locate, etc.) Or pretty much any car made in the last 10 years or more.
  I definitely appreciate wanting to protect your privacy and will readily acknowledge that any EV will make that a problem. But almost every car made since the Tesla Roadster has the same problems. Now, if we could get our respective governments to pass laws stopping this BS, that would be really nice.

I have not regretted it. Bought a second EV for my family as well. Most of my extended family have also bought EVs and all had positive experiences. I don’t know anyone who has regretted it.

My Hyundai Ioniq 5 is my favorite car ever! We've taken it on two long road trips with very few issues. The biggest issue was one charging station in a rural area had a 2 hr wait to use it. But we typically only take 15-20 mins to charge from 10%-80% on road trips.
Not sure where the top commenter is getting their range issues from. Our level 2 charger at home adds ~250 miles of range in 4 hours. In hindsight probably would have gone a cheaper route of a simple exterior 240V outlet on the wall and a compatible cord to save a few hundred dollars.
Otherwise there's very minimal maintenance and the car is super easy/fun to drive. Love the 1-pedal driving mode after a short learning period, it's so responsive that the car feels like it reads my mind on where I want to go/how far to be behind the next car.
Edit: the 2025 Ioniq 5 models are coming with the Tesla charging port, so that will open up a lot more charging stations!
- I'm really intrigued by the Ioniq. It isn't cheap, but it looks great.
- Same boat as the other reply, I really like the look and features of the Ioniq. How much space do you have in the boot and in the interior in general?
  
  There is plenty of space for passengers and storage. We traded in a Ford Fusion sedan and the Ioniq 5 has much more storage space than that did. One of the long road trips I mentioned was a camping trip. We were able to bring two big tote bins, a big cooler, a canopy tent for the picnic table, folding chairs, sleeping bags, air mattresses, extra blankets, and two dogs on the back seat. As a bonus, we got an adapter that plugs into the charging port and can power a hotplate for boiling water faster than a camp fire (also serves as back up power for my house if the power goes out, can run an extension cord down to the freezer). There is a small frunk, we mostly use that for emergency supplies.
  I'm above average height and can fully extend my legs in both front seats and never have issues with head clearance. I like the space between the two front seats as well being mostly open concept as opposed to the closed spaces in Teslas. Feels spacious for every day driving and on road trips can fit a soft sided cooler as well as a food bag.

No regrets, but I do acknowledge that it's very different and has different challenges. The usual worries before buying about range, mileage, battery drainage, top speed, maintenance fees, towing capability etc, do not actually exist. I understand why people worry, but no, they are not actual issues.
In reality: Software. That's an issue. Car mechanics do not know how to service software. Doesn't matter if it's a subscription to a service or a mandatory but malfunctioning pressure valve, it's software and they don't know about it. It usually not a serious issue, but it might be, especially for cars with a lot of gimmicks and shit. This issue also exist with new fossil fueled cars as well. For most part, it can be ignored.
The charger at home may be an issue. (Maybe i. Europe mostly?) Some cars only accept voltages with a very low resistance. Both Renault and Tesla require a better grounding than the building code in most countries. It's not costly to fix, and it's a one time fix, but it may be a surprise..(that you need to expand on your electric circuit just for this), but you should have done anyway).
I will acknowledge that range is a downside. Not in everyday use, but for longer trips, you will have to plan your trip according to charging. It has never been an issue for me, because I generally never drive that long without pause anyway. Time it to to your breaks is all there is to it.
For a comuter car with home charging, you will have absolutely no issues in switching. It does have many more surprising positives than negatives. Like, never having to set foot on a gas station. Never mind the cost, but the time spent on going there or stopping on your commute to do it, or holding the nozzle in the cold, or being tempted to buy stuff in the convenience store etc. In comparison, I go home and plug in to charge my car, exactly the same way that I charge my phone, so it's ready for the next day. It's not difficult at all. It might take 30 secons and more often than than fueling but it's still much faster than stopping on the road, gas or not.
Only actual real downside for me is that I'm also a cheapskate. I prefer to time my charging to the variable electricity prices, but not everyone has that option and it's completely voluntary.. I'm not sure if it's worth it. Sure, i save a few bucks, but the hassle of it is real. I am considering changing to a subscription model instead, just to avoid worrying about it.
The best advice that I got before buying was: "Just drive it".
Don't think about it: It's a tool, use it. In a lot of ways an EV is much better suited for that, because you only need to worry about it being ready to use. You probably never thought of that for your ICE car, because you'd do refueling and other fluids on the road. If you fuel at home, you'll also have to refill your sprinklers and remember to wash it every now and then.. Maintenance is home based, not on a station.
There's a whole lot of benefits to it as well, but you didn't ask for those, and I think you should just go test drive one to see for yourself.
- Tesla require a better grounding than the building code in most countries
  Is this a European thing too? I’ve never heard of this limitation in the US, and I certainly didn’t have to get anything changed. I’m curious about the details
  
  Yes it's country specific, but more about old houses.
  In my case the building code says the ground should have an impedance of maximum 1666 ohm. My installation was already grounded and had about 400 ohm.
  The charger guidelines says 200 ohm, however the car refuses to charge on anything over 100 ohm. I had an electrician add a new ground spear, bringing the impedance down below 1 ohm.
  The building code in USA already recommends 25 ohm, so it shouldn't be an issue if the installation is up to date.

I love mine, Chevy bolt. The biggest downside is that you need to plan road trips more carefully with them, and road trips will just take longer. Once you accept that, it's actually kind of nice to periodically take 20-30 minute breaks while on a trip.
These problems are greatly alleviated if you also have a fossil fuel car. My partner has a gas car, so if we're just going for a weekend or there aren't good charging options, we just take the gas car so we don't have to worry about charging.

I think EV cars are mature enough. A lot of colleague have EVs, Tesla 3, Bolt, Ioniq 5, Soul EV, etc. and no-one regret it.
Me I don't need one because I WFH and do maybe 4000 miles (6000km) per year, so buying a 60k$ EV compared to a 30k$ ICE does not make sense, for money.
If your #1 priority is to save the planet and not pollute and you have the money, so of course go for it.
- Your second paragraph is why I haven't pulled the trigger yet. I don't WFH, but my commute is only about 10 miles round trip and most of my errands are done within that same area. My Toyota is 12 years old and only has ~80k miles on it, so it just doesn't make sense to switch at this point.
  That said, I'm casually looking for a new job and my commute would go up dramatically for a lot of options in my field, so I haven't eliminated the possibility.
  
  Not that buying a whole different car is always financially smart, but you have an ideal setup for getting a cheaper, often lower range EV.
- If your #1 priority is to save the planet and not pollute and you have the money, so of course go for it.
  In the pollution case, it's better to keep a viable used ICE car running than to go buy a new EV. But that's completely ignoring the economics of it. Battery is cheap once purchased. And ICE has more maintenance and repair costs.
  
  Better yet get a bike (or ebike) which is much less pollution and improves your health.
- I work remotely too so a new car is an unnecessary expense. Instead a purchased a different kind of EV: an electric bike!*
  *This is a lie I've bought four of them send help
  
  I got by brother to buy an ebike, then get a 100% remote job so he never rides it and give me the ebike he doesn't use. Do we balance each other out?

If you have a place to charge it and potentially another car to swap/borrow for road trips it is pretty much the best vehicle for city driving/daily commute.
Charging at home is much cheaper and healthier for the battery. If you can't charge at home I wouldn't get an EV.
Ask yourself how often you do road trips. Depending on where you live a 6-7 hour drive can easily turn into 12+ hours because of waiting around for charging if the chargers are not close enough to each other to utilise charging at the lowest battery % possible. Even the tesla supercharger network can be quite sparce outside of urban/wealthy areas.
Price - EVs are still quite expensive compared to ice in general, and depreciation can be killer. A used tesla model 3 is basically half the price now compared to what it was a few years ago when new. Check what kind of tax breaks or other benefits you can get in your region or consider buying used.

I only regretted that I bought a BMW because it eventually broke down and I had to pay an exorbitant BMw tax to fix it. So high it wasn’t worth it. To be clear the fix itself wouldn’t have been too much if BMW didn’t block third parties from doing it.
Loved having electric though. Next car will definitely be electric. Full tank of ‘gas’ leaving the house everyday. Never having to go to petrol stations…
- Sadly that's not going to be BMW specific for much longer, they're all taking a page out of that book. 2022 Hyundai, long story on how I managed to kill a single spark plug at 30k miles, but this time last year the part wasn't listed anywhere. It was FORTY DOLLARS for a SINGLE plug from Hyundai. I'm sure there were alternates that would work but I wasn't going to risk it over 40 bucks at that low mileage.

Yes, I ended up selling and buying a hybrid. Super happy with the hybrid.
Basically instant "recharge" speed.
Longer range.
More vehicle options.
Don't have to worry about heat or cold draining my fuel.
Can leave the car stationary for long periods of time without the fuel draining.
More fueling stations.
More reliable fueling stations (chargers may be broken.)
Less software bullshit. (Tesla)
Less possibly breaking updates. (Tesla) No joke. My car's software literally crashed on the freeway once and I was essentially driving blind because all the screens went blank.
I drive a lot and for long distances. Switching to hybrid made trips shorter by an hour.
And I still got to keep fancy drive assist features. It's like 80% of autopilot, if not more.
Oh! And big one! Even though an electric car may say something like 500km range! That's NOT the usable range! You're not going to be driving the car to 0km. You're not even supposed to charge to 100% most of the time! So most of the time you'll charge to 80%, that's 400km in the battery. But, you probably wanna play it safe, so you'll want to recharge with 50km to 100km left in the battery. Leaving you with about 300km of usable range.
Then the heat, cold, and time will slowly drain your 300km....
Meanwhile, my hybrid has about 700km of usable range, regardless of time and weather.

I've been wanting a plug-in hybrid, where you're fully electric under ~40mi of daily travel, and if you exceed it switches to gas for backup. RAV4 prime has been my dream car lately....
- I have a 10 year old Chevy Volt. 95% of our households driving is on the 38 miles of battery range. Oil changes every 2 years.

Not yet, but are there any electric cars that aren't spyware with touchscreens on wheels?
- lol. As opposed to the 6 inch rectangle in your pocket
- I would argue all connected cars have become that. If you're buying anything newer than 2015, in all likelihood it's a spyware filled go-kart.
- I'm driving a 2007 which I guess I'll move on from in a couple of years. I loathe the day when my only options are cars that get OTA updates.
  Everything smart has shown their true colours about altering the deal. My TV didn't use to have ads on the home screen. Now it's 80% of it.

I have driven an old Nissan leaf for 5 years as a commuter, and I love it I don't pay for gas or maintenance the electrons are free, and the insurance is cheap. I'm waiting on some more robust options so I can have an EV as my main car.

EV driver working in automotive industry here. Based in N Europe, so take my words with a pinch of salt for other geos.
If you can charge at home, don't regularly drive very long distances and are OK with a smaller boot space EVs are a complete no-brainer.
If not all of these are true, the convenience depends a lot on where you live. In Northern Europe, UK and northern parts of Central Europe public charging networks are pretty good although Norway is starting to see queuing to be a thing.
In the US the only good charging network is Tesla's, which means only NACS cars can charge there - EU regulator has done a good job here standardising to CCS2.
Living with an EV does require some changes in behavior. You need to think about tomorrow's needs today to have the right SOC for the next long trip or choose your shopping and dining options to facilitate charging. For me, this is perfectly OK and the pleasure of driving an EV more than compensates for the mild inconvenience. That said, the amount of inconvenience is dependent on the first three factors and the country you live in.
When choosing your car, remember that you can't normally use the top and bottom 20% of your battery (depending a bit on the chemistry), which is reflected in day-to-day range.
Feel free to ask anything related to EVs, batteries, chargers or charging networks.

I haven’t regretted it. Though if you were to do consistent long drives, and only have one car, I might suggest checking out PHEVs.
- How do you feel about claims that PHEVs are combining the initial cost of an EV with the repair costs of ICE?

I’m also considering getting a full electric car, but have a little range anxiety mixed with a general feeling that the improvements over the next couple years will make current electric cars obsolete, so I am following along with this thread!
- improvements over the next couple years will make current electric cars obsolete
  This is my problem with any new car. Practically every new car (even ICEVs) is just a smart phone on wheels now. It’s not like in the ‘90s - ‘00s when you could still legit buy a car from the ‘70s and daily drive it and repair it in your own drive way for cheap (most people in the 50s - 80s were capable of basic tune ups, etc).
  My concern is that at some point the parts won’t be made anymore. Or if the LCD command console gets cracked or something your car’s totaled. I mean, people used to own cars for at least ten years, twenty years wasn’t uncommon. Do you think a 2025 XYZ is going to be on the road in ten years- twenty years? What’s the resale value on that / who’s going to buy a twenty year old phone on wheels?
  As much as people believe EVs are better for the environment, aren’t they increasing the rate at which a vehicle ends up in landfill? I hope recycling is part of the car’s lifecycle.
  At the same time though, I have to acknowledge that, without an ICE, EVs have far fewer points of failure. There’s a potential for them to be on the road much longer. I just don’t see that happening due to consumer demand. Even if you’re able to update the software and swap out worn out parts, is that enough to keep the car on the road as long as or longer than an ICEV? What happens when technology changes and they find better batteries or charging methods? How much do you have to invest in the phone on wheels to keep it on the road?
  
  This is my problem with any new car. Practically every new car (even ICEVs) is just a smart phone on wheels now. It’s not like in the ‘90s - ‘00s when you could still legit buy a car from the ‘70s and daily drive it and repair it in your own drive way for cheap (most people in the 50s - 80s were capable of basic tune ups, etc).
  Remember cars from the 70s and 80s were considered "clunkers" at 100k miles. Today that number is 200k miles generally.
  My concern is that at some point the parts won’t be made anymore. Or if the LCD command console gets cracked or something your car’s totaled.
  Thats true of all modern cars, not just EVs. That ICE car is full of computers named things like "Engine Control Module" etc. Its already happening where they are dying and a car is essentially totaled.
  I mean, people used to own cars for at least ten years, twenty years wasn’t uncommon.
  Twenty years wasn't uncommon? For collectors cars or sunday drivers maybe. There were extraordinarily few 20 year old Plymonth Reliants on the roads in 2001.
  Do you think a 2025 XYZ is going to be on the road in ten years- twenty years? What’s the resale value on that / who’s going to buy a twenty year old phone on wheels?
  Even though there were other EVs before it, the Tesla Model S was the first mainstream EV that most would consider. You don't have to wonder if they're on the road. You can do used car searches for 2013 (11 years old!) and find them for sale.
  As much as people believe EVs are better for the environment, aren’t they increasing the rate at which a vehicle ends up in landfill?
  No. Interestingly one of the challenges of setting up recycling facilities for EV batteries that there simply aren't enough EVs being taken off the road with their batteries junked to create enough feedstock to justify the facilities.
  If anything, the cut corners and non-reparibilty of the many common ICE vehicles is generating far larger waste. Try to buy a rebuilt Hyundai Sonata ICE engine for a car built in the last 10 years. You will have a hard time because they aren't very servicable and they break often. Lack of replacement engines means many cars that look amazing are headed to the scrapper because there's no way to put them back on the road again.
  At the same time though, I have to acknowledge that, without an ICE, EVs have far fewer points of failure. There’s a potential for them to be on the road much longer. I just don’t see that happening due to consumer demand.
  "Electric cars accounted for around 18% of all cars sold in 2023, up from 14% in 2022 and only 2% 5 years earlier, in 2018." source
  Nearly 1 in every 5 new cars sold last year were EVs.
  Gasoline consumption for vehicles is down 4.4% due to those drivers now driving EVs and not buying gasoline anymore source
  Demand of EVs seems to be pretty decent.
  
  As much as people believe EVs are better for the environment, aren’t they increasing the rate at which a vehicle ends up in landfill? I hope recycling is part of the car’s lifecycle.
  EOL has been part of the calculations I've seen. No car is better than an EV, but that is limiting.
  
  A modern car is far more reliable than anything from the 1970s or before. Sure you could repair those older cars, but also you had to repair those older cars. I'm old enough to remember people bragging about getting 100k miles on a car - they had to check the oil every day, and most days add more. Today a ICE will go 300k miles with minimal maintenance, checking oil is not a common thing for people to do.
- Look for a used one now. The prices are low enough that you'll be able to get a good one for a low enough price that you may not feel bad if you decide to upgrade in 2 or 3 years.
- Personally the newer vehicles have been going more and more into drm on all their things. Even ICE vehicles have been doing it. Locking the consumer into their walled garden parts and service. And when they erroneously decide that your car doesn't make enough profit, they tell you too bad, your 3yr old car isn't supported, you should buy a new one.
  Battery technology itself isn't going to have a huge breakthrough reach the electric vehicle consumer in the next 5 years. They'd already have to have viable proof of concept to do that, and nobody has.
- ICE engines improve all the time too. Are you similarly hesitant to buy a car with one?
  
  Sort of. ICE engines are much more mature, and the improvements happen in much smaller increments. There were plenty of ICE cars 30 years that could get 30 mpg, just like there are today. Whereas with EVs, we're talking about potentially extending range and charging speeds by 50% or more.

We have a Nissan Leaf (30kWh) which has been great. No regrets.
The things you worry about before buying (range, battery life) are absolute non-issues. For optimal battery longevity you don't want to use a fast charger very often, so just charge it at home which is generally more convenient anyway. You can make exceptions occasionally when you need to.
We use it for city driving, for which the range is more than adequate and we mostly only charge it every few days. We haven't yet attempted to take it on a proper road trip; so far we just borrow a friend's hybrid if we need to do that, basically to avoid having to think about charging.
- Yeah, I think it's like 99% of people's usual range is covered by nearly every electric vehicle. Maybe if you really live in the middle of nowhere then it won't be ideal for you, but you already know if that's you or not.

I went from an 08' VW Rabbit to a '21 VW id.4 a few months ago. Got the $4k tax rebate passed onto the dealer to bring my price down to $19k [~$21k after taxes/fees], it's the AWD Pro S, and doesn't have the Gradient Package [some silvery exterior bits and slightly larger wheels]. I love the car, my family loves the car. The only nitpick I reaaaaaally have and that most people have for the VW evs is the damn driver side window switches lol. You get 2 and have to tap a touch sensitive bit to switch it to the back. Makes no sense. The steering wheel touch inputs for cruise control and media are another controversial choice, but I've gotten used to it.
As far as an EV in general goes. Like most have said, check out the charging network you have where you are and where you plan to be. I've only done one road trip in my id.4 [from buying it in Chicagoland and bringing it home] and while the range was "OK" [about 150 highway miles per charge], since I was along a string of L3s along the turnpike, I wasn't worried about making it to a charger. My immediate area had a couple of L3s, but now there's probably about double/triple around me now that's opened in the few months I've had my car.
That being said, my circumstance have the car as mostly a commuter, so I tend to last on a charge all week, and then L1 charge it Sun-Tues morning to start all over. Any around town stuff during charging time doesn't really make a dent since it's all within a few miles of my home. I also am able to charge at work for free, though sometimes spots get filled. Initially I was thinking about getting a L2 EVSE, but between home and work, I don't really feel the need for one. I'd also need one with a good 50' cord since I park in front of my house, otherwise wife and I would have to re-arrange the cars whenever I wanted to charge.
That being said, if stuff happens and we do go up to my sisters about 40 miles away or something happens to where I do need to charge at a L3, the price per "tank" has been about $15 and taken 20-ish minutes. Most of the time I'm watching a few youtube videos, or going in for a restroom break and by the time i get back the car's about ready.
My car, and I think most EVs nowadays will have a setting limiting the charge to 80% to help with keeping the battery healthy. If I'm not using air conditioning at 80% my estimated range is about 190-200 miles, if it's hot and I'm using AC, it'll go down to 185ish. First upcoming winter, so I'll get to see how much my car is impacted. I don't usually worry about range. I did at first because I had a couple of close calls about charging stations not being available while doing some longish trips back and forth, but I think in general my immediate and surrounding areas that I might frequent have gotten more stations recently.
OH. Insurance for me wasn't much more than what I was already paying, but registration in my state tacks on another $200 dollars a year, presumably since having an EV you're not paying into the gas tax. Some states don't have EV fees, some do. So might want to check that. My co-worker just found out about that and wasn't happy lol.

The big question is if you can charge at home. Depending on the car, it's feasible to do so on a normal outlet if you drive ~30 miles or less per day. A 240 volt outlet can be a game changer on top of that though. My setup charges my car 0-100 in about 6 hours (you know, overnight, when I'm not doing anything and electricity is cheapest). But if I were in an apartment and had no access to overnight charging I'd consider other options.
(Chevy Bolt EUV)

Model 3 owner (before the crazy) and I love it still. auto pilot is amazing, I hate elon but honestly the super chargers are so much better than the other plug. I may consider something besides a tesla if they get an auto pilot thing and adopt the plug, but unfortunately for the time being i’m stuck giving money to the jumping dip$h1t.
- We bought a used one and just use a little Android Auto server we built for online services. It's a little extra work but works great, giving me more control and options. No money to Musk that way. He does get our driving data, but we can pull the SIM card out of the car if we want to stop that.
  
  Nice project, thanks for the pointer

It all depends on your use case. For me with a 20 mile round trip daily commute and a 200 mile drive every other week where the car is then parked for 36-48 hours at a hotel with a level 2 charger before returning home an ev is great. If you can charge at home I think it's a no brainer if you're looking to buy new or slightly used. If you're constantly driving hundreds of miles in a day then no probably not. Downside are longer road trips, as some other people said in places where charging is sparce you're looking at 50-100% more time for distance traveled. But if you don't mind being more leisurely and chilling out at a restaurant or what have you then it's not a big deal. And initial price. They are still expensive.

I love mine. Hyundai Ioniq 5.
2 years so far and it's been great. Wouldn't ever go back to gas. I don't even have a charger at home, but there is charging at work. I only need to charge it like 2 shifts per week, maybe 3 if I did a lot of driving, so it's not hard to keep it topped off just from work. Every once in a while the work parking lot is so damn full every single day that I can't charge there all week... So I have to suffer the inconvenience of... Going to a gas station and using their fast charger. Ugh.
Road trips take a bit more planning but I don't go on many road trips anyway. One per year, at most.
Weekend mountain trips and camping/skiing is great, though.

Other than the fact that I overspent a bit, I don't regret it. Especially since I live in Florida and didn't have to deal with the gas shortages due to the hurricanes. As long as you have a reliable means of charging at home (or at work), you are good 95% of the time.
If you do any regular long-range driving, be sure you get one that can support that distance. Public EV chargers can still be hit-or-miss, and that's the biggest downside in my opinion. They aren't too frequent, and a lot of times they just don't work. You also generally need to get an account for each charging network, or else it can be hard to pay or you just pay more. But I can live with that, because it is very much an exceptional part of my driving habits.

I got within an extremely close distance to getting a Model Y this year during the price cuts; I secured the loan and was looking into the insurance costs which is what ultimately killed my decision.
My car is paid off and I only pay for gas (I have the Prius Aqua 2016, ~53mpg, 4.44L/100km)
When I looked into the Y, first of all they don't allow you to get an insurance quote without first putting a down payment. If I had gone through with the purchase, I'd be looking at almost 570$/month on the car loan alone with the trade-in, plus another 140/month (I currently pay 80$/month, roughly) for insurance through my current company (this is only a ballpark figure based on me pulling a VIN number online and feeding it into a quote; that number could possibly be significantly higher). That puts my excess car expenses conservatively at 650$/month just for a new car. The literal only problems I have with my current car is that it can't tow my horse trailer and that it's a "dumb" petrol car with no infotainment and a physical key. I'm probably going to put a 12" iPad in the center console for infotainment and call it a day and keep that around for another 4 years until Apple CarPlay 2 trickles down to affordable EVs.
In summation, I really don't think EVs are worth it unless you absolutely must buy a new car. There are new infotainment options on the horizon like Apple CarPlay 2 and Android Automotive with Android Auto as standard... right now is the literal worst time to buy a car. Not to mention that NACS is going to replace CCS in the USA in the 2026 model cars. Your resale value in the mid 2030s will be absolute dogshit if you don't wait for the NACS port in next year's cars.

I almost bought a Chinese EV but decided to hold back and not support China because of their support for Russia. Got a 2nd hand ICE Mazda for now which I hope will last me until there's some non Chinese EV competion in my region or China finally grows some balls and starts doing the right thing.

So… the work i do requires a truck. I bought a lightning last year. The electric part i loved. Charging at home was awesome. FL sucks on charging stations outside of major cities though and are expensive. In the end i went back to Ram mostly due to how horrible ford’s onboard software is. Everything else about the truck was great. I’ll give manufacturers another 3-5 years to get things figured out and hopefully by then prices will be reasonable and things will work properly.

Short answer no. I now have two in my house. VW ID4 & ID3. So nice to drive, cheap to run and the maintenance costs are basically 0.
- You haven’t replaced the tires?
  
  Actually yeah, forgot about having to do that on my 1st ID4.
  
  That's still super low cost compared to all the regular repairs a combustion engine needs, especially when you consider that combustion cars also need tire replacements, just a bit less often

Have owned one for 2 years. I have made precisely one trip where I was mildly inconvenienced by having to charge one times too many. (That trip was >700km long).
All of the other times it has been amazing. Don’t overthink it too much, really. Just look at all the electric car owners out there - there’s enough of them and as far as I know no one is complaining.
Go for it.

Downsides are you can’t drive as far, usually, before needing to fill up, and quick charge takes about 25 minutes, instead of the usual 5 for gas.
Upside is that only matters on road trips. If you have an outlet at home, like we do, your car is just always charged.
- Yeah it seems only practical if a person is travelling local and is assured outlets are where they are going. Road trips you are never assured there is a station especially if you’re seeing relatives.
  
  That’s not what I said at all.
  Charging stations are pretty plentiful. Basically if there’s a gas station, there’s probably also a charging station nearby.

No regrets, coming up on a year …
if you can charge at home, it’s a no-brainer, but I know people who say it’s no big deal to go to a charger every week
level 2 charger was $400 + electrician was same as a stove circuit, so less expensive than I expected. I could get away with less
you don’t need trip chargers nearby, but you do want them on route you’re likely to road trip. The closest one I’ve used is 100 miles away
you really need to be able to use Tesla Supercharger network. It makes travel so convenient
I did get range anxiety for a while, but never an actual problem. 1,200 mile road trip fixed that. The first leg from VpBoston to Virginia, my excellent (Tesla) trip planner scheduled charging stops of 10, 10, and 4 minutes, whereas I’d normally expect two stops and a meal, so not really noticeably longer. The final leg was a bit tougher, returning from upstate NY, but mostly because a lack of chargers. It ended up no big deal
- what do you do if you just straight up run out of charge out on the road?
  
  Get towed or grab a generator and get ready to wait. Or get a plug-in hybrid for the best of both worlds.

We've had three EVs for a few years now and they been great, had four in total and replaced the first one a bit over a year ago as its lease expired, so no regrets.
Lengthy road trips aren't a problem if you plan out your route in advance I get not everyone wants to do this so if this you then wait till there are more charging stations for your region. We plan stops based on charging stations that have a lot of high speed chargers (over 100kw) so we are never waiting more than 20 minutes and never waiting for a charger. It is faster to charge twice to around 80% on one of these than it is to charge to 100% once due to how much charging slows down as the battery nears completion. I would not even consider a car that does not have a 800v architecture due to the slower charging speeds if you plan on road trips.
We have done 1200 mile round trips, probably small fry for Americans but a lot for us, especially as we towing for all that. Its achievable with planning in most western countries. I want to stop at most every three hours as I want to use the loo, are people who are driving 6 more hours non stop peeing in a bottle or something?
Cost per mile is stupidly low as we charge at home when not on trips over 280 miles, 8p per kwh, with a monthly cost between the three cars of £40 for around 2000 miles a month (more in summer, about that in winter). Good luck doing 2000 miles on £40 for an ICE car. Charging when out is more expensive the faster you want to charge, ultra rapids work out about the same per mile as high economy petrol ICE, rapids or lower a bit cheaper but nothing significant. Its only going to be cheaper if you can charge at home and your energy provider has a suitable EV tariff as we do.
Absolutely zero chance I would buy an EV right now as depreciation is already horrendous and the rate of change for EVs is rapid unless you know the car will meet your log term needs and those will not change. We lease so that all the cost of the risk is with the leasing company and we know we want the improvements.
Edit: Plug in hybrids are fucking useless BTW, you are either doing a ton of miles and using the ICE all the time, or you are using the battery all the time and very rarely the ICE. It means carrying around both a full EV setup and a full ICE setup, so you have more than twice the complexity of either and more weight than an actual pure EV with the same battery that impacts both EV and ICE economy. Plus recent studies have shown that hybrids are far harder on the ICE part than a pure ICE, which is fucking awful for long term ownership.
They were only ever meant as a stop gap until battery prices dropped, which they have and its now possible to get EVs with over 400 miles of ACTUAL range not just promised range.
- are people who are driving 6 more hours non stop peeing in a bottle or something?
  They are stopping every 3 hours for gas, but they have a "when the pump stops better be in the car" rule. Generally two drivers, one goes in, pees, and returns to watch the pump so the second can go in and pee. If you are young and fast is possible for two people to pee in the time it takes to fill your tank with gas. (males typically take half as much time as females)
  
  Every 3 hours?
  New gas engines can drive for up to at least 8 hours depending on ascent and load without feuling up again. Theyve been getting really good at economizing. Just stop to go pee, stretch legs, take a nap.
- Seven hours is about my limit without stopping to piss. My work vehicle, which I make the vast majority of my long trips in, gets 500 miles to the tank so it's not the limiting factor. I was reading higher up that some people fill up their car when it gets to half full? Wtf? I'll start looking for a good place for gas when it's 50 miles to empty.

Fisker Ocean owners that paid full sticker price I am sure.

No regrets. Polestar 2 MY22 long range AWD. Ride is a lot harsher than in the BMW i4 for instance (family member has one). But overall I wouldn't want to switch.

Do the numbers! Check that the range is at least double of that you need. Check if the purchase price makes economic sense. Put priority on wants and needs. Think of resale value, because you never know if some life changing event can happen.
I avoided that bullet in 2017 when my e39 blew the headgasket. It was either a modern EV or hybrid or a cheap second hand gas guzzler. At less than 5000km a year the numbers told me what I needed to know, and looking back, my Mondeo ST220 has been much cheaper overall, fun and dead reliable.

I would get a hybrid, but I have nowhere to charge an electric car. I live in an apartment, and unless you're rich you can't afford an apartment with charging stations. I've never even seen one, personally.

Father in law got one. Loved it until he had some sort of issue and needed to get it repaired. His old Honda Accord he could take down the block to any old mechanic but it was harder with Tesla. I think it soured him on it and he eventually ditched the EC when he moved out of the city
- I think mainly the problem there is Tesla. They’re a closed ecosystem.

I'm very pleased. I have a 2023 Bolt.
For us there was no way we'd get one without a home charger. It's great because every day you wake up and it's like a full tank of gas.
My wife still has a gas car and we bought the electric planning that we'd still use the gas one for road trips. The Bolt in particular doesn't have super fast charging (probably like 45 minutes to get to 80% using a fast charger) so if we didn't have the second car that might be my one concern.
My wife wasn't sold when we got it, but the electric was for me so we went ahead. Now she likes it. I'm banking on better EV options being available when we get our next car but I think it will be electric too.

Yes but it all depends on your use case. If you travel a lot for work that involves some mountain passes or states with low EV adoption due to politics you are gonna have a rough time or be very limited in your options.
If your use case is less than 200 miles a day and charging infrastructure is built up in your area then you are all set.
- Depends on vehicle and load requirements too, if your load it just only you and sometimes passengers then getting a car that can do 10% fast charging for only 15 minutes and still go pretty far is great. On the other hand the Silverado EV is best range EV truck available as of 2024.
  The 10 percent challenge from our of spec is best one I found for road tripping scenarios. https://outofspecstudios.com/10-challenge (mobile browser not recommended ) their other graphs are really nice too.
  Unfortunately, the only cars that do get proper range from the 10 percent challenge is just too expensive, such as the Porsche taycan(especially 2025 version being insanely fast charging with efficiency) and Lucid sedans.

I have Kia Niro, the range isnt as advertised and the gauge is not accurate. I barely made it hom when I should havenhad 40-50 km left in the charge.
I occasionally drive three hours to the office and same back necessitating two stops to charge.
The 200v chargers are more expensice than regular fuel. I have paid 100 euro for that return journey above.

God damn this thread is depressing. We need a carbon tax yesterday.

Not at all. Matter of fact I went and bought a second one a year later

I love mine. I live in Kansas and that shapes some of my needs differently than most of the audience here, but have a Ford Lightning and it’s great.
I had to install a charger in my garage and unless you have a lot of public fast chargers near you then you’ll need that.
I’ve driven long distances with it and most of the Love’s truck stops have dc fast chargers which worked perfect on the interstate.
Weather, speed, and payload are the biggest factors for range for me. The only time any were a real problem is when the temp was near zero, but I could mitigate the severe range loss some by letting it warm up for an hour or so before I departed, which can be controlled in the app.
- Yet another reason to love Love's. As someone who drives a LOT for work, there's no place I'd rather stop.

I had one and severely miss it. Well, I don’t miss the one I had but I miss the EV part of it.
I had a 2015 BMW i5 which apparently that and the 2014 models had a whole host of problems, especially if you were like me and had the range extender which was basically a small motorcycle gas engine seated in the back and could be used to charge the battery. Being BMW’s first generations, it’s not too much of a surprise that they’d have issues but there was more beyond those like the small form tires that didn’t last long, were rare, and expensive and the 12v battery which was also expensive, rare, and difficult to replace…
Beyond all that, I just miss the simplicity and the feel of the EV drive. Stepping on the accelerator and you feel it accelerate. It has much lower maintenance, with the only trade off being that tires usually don’t last as long as an ICE because the battery adds so much more weight and the battery replacement can be pricey. But other than that, no oil changes, no transmission worries, no smog checks, no needing to let the car warm up…just hop in and go. I also miss the charging aspect of it. Sure, it sucked not having the same range as a gas/hybrid where I now get about 500 miles on a full tank, but I actually liked going to charging stations and just sitting there while my car charged. I also liked the price difference, so much cheaper. I also liked that I could be lazy. I didn’t have to “fill up” when I was tired on my way home or early the next morning because I would charge at home and have a full “tank” to use the next day.
I only got rid of the i5 because of the host of problems and got a hybrid instead which has been fine and a better car in many ways, but I still long to go back. I’ve been thinking very strongly about going and trading in for an EV each weekend that passes by. I’ve been researching possible EVs to go to and have a few in mind I’d like to check out now that the prices are way down.

As much as everyone complains that it's too expensive I am very happy with the Toyota zx4.
- I didn't like how it handled, but it was way way more comfortable and predictable than a tesla 3.
  
  If I am not mistaken the Subaru version has different handling. Maybe the Solterra.

Bought an egolf way back.
Kind of regretted it but not really, it was just barely usable for commuting.
Bought a model 3, only regretted it because covid started later that month.
Bought a plug in suv, the plug in part is great, Toyota has such trash software I don't think I'll ever buy one again, though the car itself seems reliable as a rock otherwise.
Evs chance the reliability game because there are a fraction as many parts in the drive train, you don't feel like you have to worry about reliability as much.
Musk is a shit in various stages of psychosis, but the tesla was revolutionary, even though the self-drive is a complete lie, what it has is thoughtful software which is what we really need.
- Tesla was already on its way to revolutionary when Elon bought it, so he really had nothing to do with it. However, the disaster that is the Cybertruck is all his fault.

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