Norwegian government to set 15-year age limit for using social media

For all those that think this is the government overstepping with an unenforceable law, you are not grasping the intent correctly. Declaring that we have democratically decided to have an age limit for social media means that we have laid the groundwork for collective action. This means that suddenly schools, parents, teenagers themselves, etc. all have a reason and a mandate for keeping young people off platforms that we believe to be detrimental to their development and well-being. True democratic culture lies not in bourgeoisie domination (as many Americans like to believe), but rather in mutual trust and cooperation in order to solve common and big problems.

Exactly!

It’s not about Totalizing Enforcement. What it changes is the cultural norm. Not right away but over time.

An age limit on alcohol never stopped anyone of any age to acquire alcohol, but it sets the societal bar for what’s acceptable. You don’t wanna be the parents that gave your kids alcoholic beverages at 13.

It’s always a little jarring how everyone very readily believes that the Scandinavian countries are the happiest in the world, but won’t believe that the incremental policy changes we implement here have any effect 🤷‍♂️
- As a case study, we did this in 1988 with a smoking law that was incrementally improved with great success. It was controversial at the time, but is now generally regarded as such an obvious policy: no smoking in or around public transport, in bars and restaurants etc..
- An age limit on alcohol
  
  This has a very clear means of enforcement, since you can require age checks at the point of purchase and revoke licenses if someone violates that.
  
  This law is a lot harder to enforce, because what exactly is "social media"? If the kids are all blocked from Facebook and whatnot, they could rally around the comments section of a local newspaper or something (or even something like Lemmy, which isn't large enough to properly regulate). Kids are creative, and a lot of parents (at least here) are pretty oblivious to what they actually do on their devices.
  
  So I'm skeptical of this law, but we'll see how it plays out.
True democratic culture lies not in bourgeoisie domination (as many Americans like to believe), but rather in mutual trust and cooperation in order to solve common and big problems.

American here who has visited Scandinavia a couple times.

There are so many little differences, but they add up to a staggering divide in the amount of mutual trust and cooperation you see in little everyday interactions.
Well.

Anything good I encounter in cultures that interest me is similar to the matching part of the Scandinavian cultures, or so it would seem.

And in this particular case it is so.

But in general I don't like this optimism of "you don't understand, it's different in our land of elves as opposed to your sorry piece of clay with goblins in it".

Centralized social media, controlled by companies, I'd want to be just banned. These are all harm and no good. But in general - see about optimism.
- Could be I am being dense, but I do not understand what you are saying at all.

"Are you 15 or more years old? Y/N"

There, that fixed the problem.

IIRC Norway has an actual Nat ID system, so assuming ðey develop a workable API for it ðis could actually be implemented quite easily.

Preventing kids stealing ðeir parents' IDs to open accounts anyway will be ð actual challenge.
- Is there a reason that you use some character (I'm afraid I don't know the name of it) wherever you would otherwise use "th"? I can't guess if it's some kind of technical issue with federated text, something from a different language you're incorporating, or one of those "I think we should add x symbol to the language so I'll use it to draw attention to the effort" deals, like with the people that use the combined !? symbols whenever both are relevant at once.
- So then the kids will just use a VPN
- so assuming they develop
  
  Psst… ðey
- Whats that O with an aeroplane?
- No need of this. Make a mandatory physical check of the ID that can't be subcontracted. People want an account? They need to go to an office and open it there like it was the case in the past for a bank account.
- could actually be implemented quite easily.
  
  Without any risk for sure....
True but would you prefer weak enforcement or strong enforcement?
Strong enforcement would likely involve the government having better records of your browsing habits.
- My government already knows all of my kinks, I include a list of all the porn I watched each year with my tax return. They don't ask for that, but I provide it anyway.
- I prefer weak enforcement every time. It's effective for kids who would follow the law anyway, and it doesn't push the kids to use more covert means if they wouldn't follow the law anyway. The latter group is therefore much easier to monitor using standard tools, and good parents with deviant children can use that effectively to help solve their problems before they become more serious.
If they admit they're below the age of 15 they should be banned until they reach the mature age.
- That'll get them. No one under 15 has any idea what a VPN is.

Enforcing it is virtually impossible.

You are correct, but i'd like to expand a bit on how it could be solved.

It requires that all major social networks use BankID for all traffic from Norway.

Bypassing it would require a VPN, which is a simple hurdle.

But the major win here is that parents will enforce this. Parents can point to this law and say that they have to be old enough. As long as enough parents enforce this law and the VPN requirement is there, then it will probably be effective enough
- So you need a BankID to open an account on the covered platforms? That seems like a privacy nightmare.
- I’m not Norwegian or in Norway and I’m definitely doing this - my kids know of the problems of social networking (including the latest TikTok court docs and what the execs say.)
  
  Some friends say that’s over the top; I just say it is responsible, involved parenting. I value their mental health.
- And a 14 year old kid using a VPN is probably not the target audience for a lot of the worst abuse.
  
  Not saying it won't happen, but a drastic reduction is better than none.
+1, where I live they made phones during school hours illegal. Literally NOTHING changed it's just that if they want to they can get people in trouble.
How do you do, fellow Norwegian Lemmings? I sure do love being under fifteen, who's with me, right?

Huh? So...only children get to use social media...?

Every finite range has 2 limits. A bottom limit and a top limit.
- This isn't a finite range.
- Ah, ok, so it might only be newborns.

Is it even possible to define "social" media? Media on the internet which allows you to connect with others? So the entire internet then? We always have had e-mail, IRC, newsgroups, IM, forums and later on voice calls, and every "new" platform is just an iteration or amalgamation of those early technologies. (Yeah especially you, discord, you worthless piece of shit)

It is a law that makes sense to me from a human standpoint, but looks impossible to uphold if you think about the practical implications. Everything is social. Pure read-only websites are vastly outnumbered. Even wikipedia allows discussions ffs.

That said, i would very much welcome an entire ban of minors on the internet. And while we're at it, maybe more so a ban on data-harvesting, intrusive advertising and corporate driven monetisation of user created content. Earlier days of the internet. Ctrl-alt-del that fucker back to 1998 please.

Or you know what, just pull the plug. It was fun while it lasted but let's not succumb to FOMO. The party has ended and yet we're still on the dance floor with the lights on, clinging on to the last moments that already passed. There's beer and someone else's vomit on our clothes, a bunch of drunks stumbling and yelling racist remarks, your girl is riding some loser on the wet floor and the thick, putrid smell of lost hope and forgotten dreams hangs in the air. There's no more music, just the drunken ramblings of those that also refuse to leave and some shouting reverberated in the now almost empty venue, and you feel the cold air and the humidity. You realise you haven't seen your friends around for hours. How did this happen all of a sudden, it was so fun here an hour ago?

It never really was.

Let's just go home.

Here's one way to do it. The legislators define a list. Products in the list are social media. The list is referenced in the law.
- That seems... Inefficient?
  
  New Social media pops up every other year or so. Do they need to meet and vote to add new ones to the list every time?
I don't think internet is as much the problem as phones.
- Totally agree. The rise of the smartphone (be it the apps or just the access to the net at your fingertips) seems to at least partially coincide with the death of the classic internet.
Ban tools that pretend to be magic?

Just my guess. Butlerian jihad something. Not going to think further, I like this one fuzzy.

E-mail is just electronic mail. IRC is just electronic groupchat. Newsgroups is just an electronic notes board, like they may have on a residential building.

IM is like e-mail or IRC, but with bullshit. Forums are like newsgroups, but with bullshit.

Voice calls are like phone calls, but over ~~ the Web.~~ the Internet.

That said, i would very much welcome an entire ban of minors on the internet.

I'm split over that.

Reading fan fiction hurt me a lot - literature can be harmful, especially when it's written by late puberty teens about situations they'd want to have, relating to late puberty social dynamics and which characters they'd want to have sex with. It has damage potential for some people.

But also most of the good things I've read were over Internet too. I'm already formed by it.

Let’s just go home.

I agree, but some of it was fun. The parts created by real people, using tools for their intended purpose. Webpages - to share hypertext-connected bunches of pages. Forums - to have text discussions separated by subjects. And so on.

It broke when someone really believed you can take the human out of the loop.

But all these tools are only meaningful as an extension of the human. Mail doesn't make sense if you put a bunch of text generators that would mail each other nonsense, even if it is plausible nonsense.

We the humanity have tested ourselves with enormous computing power and have found out our worth. Here ends the optimistic age, and the pessimistic age starts, which won't be the first time they change even in the last century.

We have been weighed and found wanting. Isn't this sobering and beautiful? Only I'd like this to have happened earlier. Like 10 years ago.
How are they going to write a law that bans social media while allowing online school?
- Thats my point. You can't. Everything on the internet is "social" nowadays. The best they can do is something like banning access to services that don't follow a strict set of rules/laws, for instance regarding data collection or selling etc

I really dislike this sort of daddy over reach but it seems like this is the only way to make corpos get real about enforcement.

This would result needing to provide ID to use normie social media?

How would this even work globally and on places like fediverse tho?

Well the devil is in the detail. However, what appears is being mooted is it will only affect big social media corporations. A Lemmy instance is hardly big business. Not that I'm discounting creeping regulation moving into the fediverse.
- It's impossible to specifically target Facebook and Snapchat without also affecting Lemmy and YouTube comments.
  
  They're all social media with minor UI differences.
How would this even work globally and on places like fediverse tho?

it wouldn't work. I'm betting 100$ right now that nothing will come of this law it's purely populist virtue signaling.

You may use it only until you are 15. Alternately, you may choose any 15-year window in your life. Choose wisely.

The wisest choice is no period at all

How do they define what a social media is?

And most importantly: How would they enforce that? Kids have been lying about their ages since the dawn of internet.
- I don't think they really need to.
  
  Laws are often just an acknowledgement of a society's expectation.
  
  "We've all decided that kids under 15 using social isn't great."
  
  The fact that this law exists makes it infinitely b easier for parents to establish and maintain rules in their household, because peer pressure is minimised.
  
  Yes, some kids will still use social before they're 15. Perhaps most kids. However, I think harmfully excessive use will be minimised.
- The enforcing part is where this is likely to get shitty. Once they establish this as a law they maybe will try and sue companies that don't provide an age check on their websites. Now if that is possible I am not sure, seeing as many of those are having HQs in Ireland or Netherlands due to tax reasons.
  
  But if that is successful it would mean they actually have to check everyone's age by some means, which means collecting IDs. Which definitely is bad news for users, we all know that data won't be securely stored or deleted.
  
  Not sure how else this could go down.
- Would probably require the sites to use Bank ID during signups from Norway.
  
  Bank ID is a national system for confirming identity.
- Since Leisure Suit Larry at least. ;) Since alcohol sales were restricted to adults? Since.. ?
- I know I have been surfing the hub ever since I was 13
Probably networks where users post personal data in conjunction with chat features. Obviously, Wikipedia is not social media in this regard and neither is a mailing list.
Yeah I want to know if YouTube and any website with comments (eg all news sites) are social media
- What about Ecommerse site where you can interact with other buyers, talk to the seller and reply to people's reviews? Isnt that a social media?
- It will just be the ones they don’t get kickbacks from.

Get off my Lemmy kids

Governmental overreach. Good luck trying to enforce this shit.

Social media isn't bad inherently. Addictive algorithms, violation of user privacy, etc. is bad.

Kids should be taught how to make use of social media for good. I was bullied quite a lot as a kid. Social media is what kinda brought me out of it.

Social media told 13 year old me, that it is alright to be gay. Social media is what made me interested in politics. A huge part of who I am today is because of the nice people I met online. Fuck the government for trying to take it away from others like me.

Social media isn’t bad inherently. Addictive algorithms, violation of user privacy, etc. is bad.

Cigarettes aren't bad for you. It's just the burning tar and the nicotine.
- But social media don't have to burn tar. They chose to because this way they can get more money, but it's not an inherent part of the system, it's an exploitation of it for profit, and can be separated
- And here you are, spewing bullshit analogies on social media...
- comparing substances to social media is fucking stupid and you should feel bad.
While all of that may be true, it doesn't necessarily negate the adverse affects social media can also have on young people.

I think you got lucky and found a community that accepted and welcomed you. But a lot of kids aren't as fortunate, and their experiences with social media are a lot more sinister. Children are more exposed to predators and harassment now than ever before.

I dunno that a full "ban until ___ years old" policy is the cure, either. But it's a start.
- I don't understand why the knee jerk reaction for everything is just "ban it".
  
  You want to reduce the exposure of children to predators? Moderate the platforms. We can agree that Reddit n Lemmy's moderation is a lot better than Instagram's moderation. Why don't we start with that???
  
  The biggest way predators do their predatoring is by sliding into ur DMs. You could restrict this by requiring approval for all such new DMs by a parent's account or something. There r just so many ways that social media can be made safer for kids.
  
  Social media is a digital townsquare. Sure, there r some malicious actors lurking about. Does that mean that kids should just be banned from this townsquare? No. The townsquare should be made safer for kids. There must be some hand-holding for kids in the beginning so that they can learn how to make the best use of this infrastructure in the future.
- There is little evidence for this claim. As far as I recall, evidence actually shows that things like bullying, harassment and child sexual exploitation are dropping.

Don't stop at social media. Put that same limit on religion, too.

Are you pointing out how you don't like this law or are you actually suggesting we ban religion for kids?
- People should be of legal age before officially joining a religion.
- I'm gonna go with what home dude below said. "People should be of legal age before officially joining a religion."
- I'm thinking neither one is really enforceable.
It's norway, so that's kinda pointless
- You're right. I was just talking in a broader scope.

Sad to see people here supporting the same kinds of policies that are diametrically opposed to privacy on the internet.

Parental control softwares are always parents failing to take the time to properly educate themselves and their children to the internet, as well as trust issue towards their children, which is bad parenting since it leads children into lying to them and finding alternatives as well as feeling seen "as a child", bad for teens...

Moreover those softwares are, as I said earlier nearly malwares

Most parents don't know, don't care. Social media has been proven to be bad for kids, it's nothing new, this is a good thing
- Social media has been proven to be bad for kids Way too broad statement, which social media, which kids, how "bad"? There's no scientific statement without those precision, and the broad opposite of your broad statement could as well be "proven" using studies

If anything, it would be far better to ban people above a certain age from social media. I’ve seen far more older people get sucked in by online misinformation and become extreme conspiracy theorists than kids.

It's not the government's job to tell adults to not partake in self-harm. Kids don't know better.
- But government can take away the means or incentive for self harm. It is just a matter of society agreeing. That will never happen in the USA and Americans are fine. Norway agreed and they are fine.
- Sorry, but that logic is absolute and total bullshit.
  
  Adults are extremely bad at making decisions in their best interests too. Why does the government have to oppress kids to protect them, but you when the exact same logic is applied to adults, that’s a problem?
  
  It’s all oppression. It’s all wrong. Kids should have autonomy too.
Ok? Well that's what an age limit would imply, isn't it?

If this is any guide, maybe there should also be an upper age limit, too.

I hope they've written a very broad definition of social media.

We shouldn't blocked the social media, they are pure shit, don't get me wrong, but we should only educate correctly the people to show them how bad it is

With that logic we should give everyone a nuclear bomb and teach them not to press the button. Let's see how that works out.

Big tegh companies spend billions on ways to influence your behaviour, making it even difficult for adults to not fall for their traps, let alone kids with still very much underdeveloped brains. Just look at all the stupid things you had done when you were a kid.
- My answer was an ideal thing, but it will not happened soon because of the big corporates, they are keeping us for profit. You're absolutely right that it's the fault of corporations.
- With that logic we should give everyone a nuclear bomb
  
  And in here lies the problem of using bad analogies.
What?! Are you implying the parents should educate their kids better? How dare you!?

Why does it ~~incorrectly~~ say limit in the headlines then correctly say minimum in the first sentence.

A minimum is a type of limit.
I like the idea social media is for kids only and adults are banned. If that applies to advertisers and bots too then it could be a winner!

That ship has long sailed. Most teens will find a way and the ones that don't will be social rejects.

Social media is fundamentally a part of our social fabric. There's no going back on that. Instead, collectively we should promote healthier social networks not prohibit them. Norway is fucking stupid here.

Also, wtf are Norvegian parents doing with their infinite oil money they don't have time to care for their teens?

We don’t have to accept corporations selling ads that target young people and using algorithms to take advantage of them.

And Norwegian parents are doing what many are doing; caring for their kids to the best of their abilities. That oil money has provided good social services and these teens do have access to healthcare, including mental, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t teenagers still. They necessarily require some independence. That’s growing up, so you can’t just parent around every problem. Hence restricting some things, like cigarettes and alcohol for example.

I don’t see this much differently. It is a hazardous drug that warrants some consideration. Enforcement is fraught but that doesn’t mean we should just sit on our hands and accept it as is.
- personally I think it's the phone that's more the problem. the persistent access seems like it contributes more to habit forming than the nebulous definition of social media. and that's much easier to define and possible enforce.
- prohibition simply doesn't work. Especialy with social constructs. Try telling teens that they shouldn't listen to a specific music genre lol
  
  There are million other better ways to handle and this law just seems like a bunch of populist drivel:
  
  Therefore, the next step will be to push forward an age verification solution specifically for social media.
  
  So, now because some parents suck at parenting I should provide my ID to Instagram? How incredibly dumb is that?
  
  As a parent myself I'm so tired of shitty parents ruining it for everyone. Just talk with your kids, it's really not that hard.

Its possible to have back and forth conversation on a wikipedia user talk page, are they banning wikipedia too? The comments section on a news website? Desktop email clients and hotmail accounts?

I can't see a way where this doesn't end up being used to restrict information from wider society. Even just banning kids from the internet, is restricting millions of people who deserve to be able to access the resources on the www

You’re acting like Wikipedia talk pages and especially news site comment sections are some bastions of discourse 😆

They’re all cesspools of shit that don’t bring any joy to anyone except trolls, pedants and energy vampires
They are allowed on the web, they are not allowed sign up to be members of social media websites. Information should be freely available without being logged in, if it isnt then maybe the platform if the problem not the person or government.

Im eager to know if you are just a negative person looking for flaws or have some legitimate concern you failed to express.
What a weird take..

I would highly recommend listening to the If Books Could Kill podcast about the book “The Anxious Generation”. I feel like it’s probably one of their weaker episodes, if I’m honest, because they kind of have a preconceived bias against social media, but I think they basically come around to the conclusion that there is basically no compelling evidence that social media is particularly harmful to young people, in a general sense, and that on the whole, it’s also very useful for young people.

This is just yet more oppression of young people dressed up as if it’s for their best interests.

Government doing parenting now? Bad idea.

Is it? Not dealing with "the other kids have social media so I can too"!

Governments have always been involved in parenting and the education of kids.
What exactly do you think schools are?
- a production line for corporate slaves.

Oppression of young people is the only one that seems to get worse over time

Oppression?! FFS.... can't even look at 'em the wrong way nowadays and it's oppression... i guess it's better than repression!