Wayne

“I didn’t see it therefore it never existed” is the most insane fucking logic to me

Agreed, yet it's one of the most common logical fallacies.
And stupid when obviously the only question one would need to ask in this context is "are there trans people over 30?" And the answer is "absolutely fucking yes"

So Heather thinks that no one talked about it because it simply hadn't occurred to anyone rather than being afraid?

Or is Heather saying she preferred it when they suffered in silence?

I think Heather is saying that it's either a fad, or a deliberate corruption spread by Those People. Either way, it's not real and trans people are either evil or stupid, and Life Was Better before we had this evil and/or stupidity in it.
Heather is stupid.

My dad's best friend from high school transitioned...I can't remember when I first met him (used to be "her"), but it had to be sometime in the late 90s/early 2000s, and I was just a teenager. He had fully transitioned by that point. I remember thinking that made sense. It was before the culture war types discovered trans people and decided they were the literal devils. To me it sounded simple--as a kid Tracy always felt like she was a boy. So when she could afford it, she got surgery to fix her body to match what her brain was, since that's easier and less risky than changing your brain to match your body. It sounded to me like getting a prosthetic if you're born without a limb or something. Or getting an amputation if you're born with an extra limb. Like, you were born with something wrong with your body and you fixed it, not a big deal.

It wasn't until much much later that I realized how rare Tracy was for that time period...not just because the kind of biological mistake he fixed is statistically rare (which I understood as a kid), but because the vast, vast majority of people born that way hide it (which I did not understand). I also didn't really have a concept of "gender" as a different thing than "sex" at that point...I don't think the vocabulary for that really existed except maybe in a few academic circles. So to me, she was a she until she transitioned, then she became he. She had a problem, now he doesn't.

It also confused the fuck out of me when people started saying hateful shit about trans people. Like, no, I know a trans person, he's cool as hell, we went kayaking together.

So when she could afford it, she got surgery to fix her body to match what her brain was, since that’s easier and less risky than changing your brain to match your body.

Just a small point. If we had any medical/scientifically validated method to "change her brain to match her body", Conservatives would be railing non-stop to only allow that instead of allowing/promoting what we currently know as gender transition. It would still be wrong because it would literally be brainwashing.
- The counterpoint would be that this happens to millions of people undergoing psychiatric care every day for other reasons. "Better living through chemistry" allows us to treat various conditions, even relatively harmless ones, through alterations in brain chemistry. Brainwashing, as it were. And that's relatively accepted practice today.
  
  I think a lot of people would jump at the opportunity if there was a magic pill that would just suddenly make you feel comfortable in the skin you're in. Gender dysphoria is not a pleasant condition to experience, and the only solution we have available right now is to transition into what feels more comfortable. But it'll likely be a long while (likely not within our lifetimes) that discrimination against trans people will come to an end, so the alternative to dysphoria is social stigmatization that causes other negative medical states anyways.
  
  There's a reason trans people have such a high rate of suicide. If the medical community were to decide that a pill that cures gender dysphoria was a more reliable intervention than living with all of the baggage that comes with being trans, I don't doubt that many/most would prefer that approach.

I was born in the early 90s and there was an AFAB person who very early on insisted they were actually a boy. I do remember thinking it was weird when I was a kid but the more they presented masculine the more it became "That's just the way they are" and I accepted it.

They were masculine presenting as early as 4th grade if I remember correctly. They were a beacon of light in high school for other queer people who hadn't figured themselves out yet. And they were super nice and friendly so everyone liked them.

They waited until our first year of college before asking us to refer them with he/him pronouns. It just made sense. I had a better understanding of gender and its spectrum by this point so it I remember thinking "finally."

Unfortunately he was in a car accident not too long after, and passed away. The world is sincerely lesser from his passing.

My daughter goes to school with a transboy. I suspected he was trans from his behavior, haircut, etc. the first time when he and my daughter were at a pool party together when they were 9 years old. I'm so glad we live in an era where it's more comfortable (although there's still a long way to go) for someone like him to be who they really are.
I had a trans classmate in high school. We weren't friends, he was a real jerk for the first two years I knew him, until he socially transitioned between sophomore and junior year. He mellowed out a lot after that, but we still never really made friends.

I'm now in music education and have encountered multiple trans students. The one that sticks out to me the most is the kid whose parents didn't accept him as trans, because he told us we had to deadname him and misgender him any time his parents were around, which, unfortunately, included when he was on stage during a bit of a show he was in in which part of the production was everybody getting introduced during one of the songs. I know he really appreciated us accepting him and having his back like that, but I hated that we had to do that.

That super sucks about your friend. So unfair that he finally felt comfortable with his identity, and then crashed straight into /c/fuckcars.

Schools always did this.

Never expelling the bullies, always expelling the kid that was bullied to their breaking point when they retaliated.

I am convinced that the people who choose to be teachers (and especially principals) also tend to be the kind of people who like and relate to bullies.

In general a lot of them seen to enjoy bullying as a method of "correcting" other people to align with your will. A method some of them seem to feel they are unjustly restrained from utilizing fully.

Not all schools. Neither of the two I attended in Australia punished me when I snapped
The way I see it, positions of power attract those who want to use and abuse that power. But the position of teacher also attracts lots of wonderful people. What you end up with depends on the school and their hiring practices, which in 90s and before was probably not that oriented toward the well being of the children.

Not being aware of something existing doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You are not the center of the world. Jesus christ.

I graduated in '89. Queer as a $3 bill always was, but you didn't say that shit in high school back then. Just being gay was dangerous enough, can't imagine how being trans would have gone over.

If you did try to be who you were, you ended up ostracized at best, dead in a ditch at worst. I chose the lunch tray route, but outside of school...

'89 here as well. If people think gay folk have it bad now, friends and neighbors, I can tell stories.

Gay rights jumped 900% in relatively few years. It's why the conservatives are shitting themselves. Now they're told they have to, at least, tolerate the people they used to hate. Can't stomach it.
- In 1999 my boyfriend wouldn't hold my hand or show any affection outside the house for fear. Gays now don't even know what the pride rallies are for
Graduated 03... Didn't know trans was a thing. Nobody spoke about it. The concept of "transsexuals" was limited to trans women and them basically only in the concept of riddicule so had no idea trans men could exist...

I had no words for what I was. No community. Just a sense of being isolated from every other person with thoughts that made me sound crazy even to myself. I hosted a bunch of desires I knew would make me end up more alienated and alone than I already was if I even tried to voice them.

Funnily enough I also snapped and tried to beat a bully with a hockeystick. I was a gentle kid who wanted to hurt no one and because I was locked inside myself everybody took a turn treating me like shit because I was quiet. Thankfully my teachers got it. My parents were not even phoned, the teachers just acted like it was any other day of the week. I owe those folks a lot.

There was a trans girl in my high school in the 90s. She was lucky in a way because she was also drop-dead gorgeous, so even a lot of the asshole bigot kids who knew she was trans didn't say anything in case other kids would make fun of them for having a crush on her.

There was a trans girl in my school in the late 90s and she was a total scheming removed who tried to get my girlfriend to dump me.

I have very vivid memories of the one out trans person I knew back then lol

Heather is, unfortunately, very typical. It didn't happen in her world so therefore it wasn't really a "thing"

I'm always surprised at how people can't seem to imagine a world that isn't a mirror image of their reality.

To everyone who went to school before the heliocentric model was introduced, do you remember anyone talking about how they thought the Earth may not be the center of the galaxy? No.. Me neither.

If all someone knew were vortices and the ethereal plane, it would take quite a while to explain Newton's new take through Calculus. Have you seen the thickness of his publications? Also, they're in Latin so the insider language factor is quite challenging.
People in countries that have the death penalty for being gay, how many gays did you hear about in school

I used to have a group of kids follow me home throwing rocks at me every day for like a week. No adult did anything about it. So eventually, I picked up a rock and threw it back and hitting one of them in the face.

I was punished by the school, even though this didn't even happen at school. I was punished by my parents. The bullies were not punished ever, and they never stopped.

Absolutely true. No one (well, very few, even the obvious ones) was even openly gay before the 2000s

People who weren't around as at least a teen before 2000s have no clue how silent anyone was on being gay. It just about never was discussed

It was not a safe thing to admit. Being trans would be significantly worse for them I'm sure

The original question is just groomer-accusing trash, probably by someone who indoctrinates children religiously and are scared another group "with an agenda" might get to them first

Yep. Nobody was out in the 90s. None. The one goth kid that wore a tiny bit of eyeliner was a big fucking deal and he was straight (had a big tiddy goth gf).
- You're going too far. There were definitely plenty of kids out in the 90s. Not as many as today, but maybe one or two per school, depending on the school.
Yup. There was a guy in our class that was pretty obvious but he maintained he was straight. He even dated a few girls. While I don't think we (his closest friends) would've ostracized him, we definitely would've made every convo about his gayness and teased him for it. "removed" and "homo" were still very common slurs in the late 90s. That's enough to stay in the closet. If anyone came out as trans I'm sure it would've been just as bad.
- Using removed as just a general insult took me a long time to break out of. It was rampant in the 80s and 90s. But it was reflective of what people thought: gay=bad choice. Aids made that even worse
  
  So while using it as a slur for your friends wasn't gay bashing it was basically saying your friend was as lame as a gay person is, which people looked down on
  
  Thankfully in my mid teens I got the chance to work with gay people and I realized any negative way of thinking or treating them was way off base and ignorant. I was never that bad at all but I had the general unease that people back then had. The. You just realize there's nothing special about them. Just people being attracted to people. That sounds so obvious now but 30-40 years ago it wasn't normal to think that whatsoever

I finished school in the 90s. We had a guy in our class who was very not straight. Although we were sometimes nice to him we also bullied him and I still feel guilty about it to this day. Last I heard he identified as a female but that was second hand info 15 years ago. I have no idea what happened to him/her. I wish I could apologise but have no way to even contact them or know where to start.

Graduated near 2000 and yes I remember several and several more who waited until after they graduated to come out about it.

I think most people who "dont remember" are people from groups that it wouldn't be kosher to come out around. I also image racist people didn't have a lot of nonwhite friend's go figure.

I've always wanted to tell this kind of story in fiction:

Someone goes 90% of the path down a 'Joker' story - they're mistreated and abandoned by society, unable to live, much less achieve their dreams, basically because of their lot in life. They've caused extreme, grievous harm that could genuinely be categorized as self-defense. Then, just as they're planning some final, very climactic action with some strong weaponry to remove someone that makes them feel unsafe, someone DOES hear them out - and saves them from the path of becoming a full anti-hero, establishing in a large venue of society that every "heinous" action of his was a necessary act for human sanity, and could have been avoided by countless people in their path. Those who wronged him receive due punishment, and the cruelty he's been exposed to is revealed to society at large.

Granted, that kind of thing does sound like a hero power fantasy; but when 90% of the anime I see these days is trash isekai "I'm overpowered in this alternate world" type of stuff, it feels like a fantasy we want to have these days.

A story where the protagonist is swayed from violence to gain revenge is desperately needed

Media really promotes violence and revenge as proper things to do
The real power fantasy is being able to help people. Because that's the worst sort of helplessness, seeing bad shit happen and knowing deep in your heart that there's very little you can do about it.
- Even if we explore fantasy, something I like playing into is revealing that we are not always "the main character" of the world - the person initiating action. Sometimes it's extremely hard for this non-Joker character I'm depicting to realize that they are not an "anti-hero who's going to slice apart the corrupt strings of the world", he's just a victim of injustice - someone who shouldn't have had these things happen to them, but also has no individual path to follow for correction. They didn't do anything wrong, nor is there anything for them to do as a follow-up.
  
  I've met people that seem like they need help to put their life in a good, working state, but their mind is preoccupied with the idea of what they can do to help others, even if, when it comes down to it, they're not so capable of that just yet. It might internally be a way of pushing further social connections and making themselves feel valued. It could also be an attempt to follow off the many hero fantasies we see in fiction.

Yes actually. Knew a guy that talked about it to close friends a lot in the late 90s. He's (she's) openly trans now.

If you don't know what to use you're in luck, english has "they" that's neutral, no need to invent a new pronoun (like in french) or to find roundabout ways to not use a specific gender in your phrase.
- I used a gender. I used the two to essentially bridge the transition. It wasn't out of ignorance or disrespect.

I cleared year 12 in 1995 and I could have called myself trans, except there was no such word. I was just a boy who wanted long hair and girls clothes and toys. One of my happiest early memories was when the guy at the holiday spot lolly kiosk addressed me and my sister as girls

If the word existed, I wouldn't have used it since I was bullied for my accent, my height, my name. I knew from an early age that you couldn't be different

I wasn't expelled when I punched a bully in the mouth in 3rd grade primary school. I was told it was wrong, but it worked, I wasn't bullied any more in the last 3 years at that school

I wasn't expelled (or punished at all) from high school when I threw the desk at a bully in year 10, and that also stopped the bullying for the two remaining years there

By the time I heard the word trans I was very much shaped and socialised to my assigned gender.

Hmm... what year did the song Lola come out?

Yeah, but you see, that wasn't in school, so it doesn't count. And don't you dare Google "Institut für Sexualwissenschaft."

Yeah, this is pretty much it. Survival strategies for most schools are to lay low, don't draw attention to yourself, and definitely don't give the bullies easy ammunition.

In my small town, a three-letter f word slur was employed regularly by pre-teens who had no understanding of what that word meant. You knew they learned it from their parents, because what fucking kid learns that kind of language in the 80s and 90s without the internet?

Of course people didn't hear about trans kids. Because if you did, they would have been bullied so much that they'd either leave, or just be a legendary target forever.

I swear, people forget what it's like to be in school with aloof administrative staff and shitty peers.

Anecdotally, yea. Army kid life so I didnt meet her until high school of 2007-8. I was friends with a girl who sort of did become trans later. In high school we were friends and went on like 1 or 2 dates, but it didn't really work. Left high school and years of emailing later she came out as not caring what pronouns and dressing androgynous. I don't talk to her any more just due to time passing and living 500 miles different. Loosely fits this bill because we would have started school right before the turn of the M.

Yes. That is all.

And America wonders why there's so many school shootings and suicides.

People didn't talk about wanting a sex change, but loads of us hated our bodies and wanted to wake up in different ones. Given the option and institutional support and reassurance that transitioning would help us, many of us probably would have been convinced to do so

This is actually one of my primary concerns regarding transgenderism in the modern day. I think it's a tool in the toolbelt for when it's necessary. I also think it's a tool we reach for much more often than is necessary.

The comparable example I like to give is adhd. It isn't binary. You don't just have it or don't have it. Some people have symptoms that need no intervention. Some people have symptoms but are misdiagnosed as adhd. Other people get by with therapy alone. Yet others find medication necessary to be functional.

Giving gender affirming care to all people with gender or body dysphoria is like giving high dose Adderall to all people who have trouble paying attention in history class. It's the nuclear option, and you're using it on someone who may not even have adhd, or may not require such a strong intervention.

I know everyone hates this word, but starting with more conservative treatments first is the norm throughout healthcare for exactly this reason. We've made an exception for transgender people for political reasons, not scientific ones.

You already have to go through tons of therapy and other conservative treatments before you get a sex change operation. That exists TODAY. Same with abortion.

No one can get it on a whim. Doctors require requisites to make sure it's right for you, and it should stay up to the doctors' discretion.

It's nonsense saying it's overused as if doctors and the patient don't know what they're about to go through.
- Funny how no one ever considers this. It’s like they think some 12 year old can one day on a whim go to their doctor and ask for a sex change and they’ll start them on meds that day like hey I didn’t see my kid for the afternoon and now he’s got breasts what the hell!
- I'm not the guy you responded to, but I have a similar concern...not with institutional gender affirming care, I don't know enough about that to comment on it. My concern is with the social aspect, especially with kids. There's no such thing as a feminine man anymore; now if you're anything less than hypermasculine there's pressure to announce yourself as trans. It's silly, and it's a fad, and I hope (and assume) our medical/therapy professionals are willing and able to see past it.
Gender affirmative care isn't even specific to transition care. It's any surgery that is intended to make the recipient feel more like their gender e.g. breast implants, cosmetic chest surgery to fix concave chest.
How about, if people want a sex change operation, you let them have it? Why have a discussion at all?

If people want to get a tattoo all over their face, society lets them, no therapy necessary. If people want to mutilate their nipples and genitals with piercings, no therapy necessary.

Just, let people be themselves, get out of their way.
We've made an exception for transgender people because withholding care leads directly to worse, catastrophically worse, life outcomes. We don't start with conservative options when treating severe PCOS or similar disfiguring conditions. That's a bad faith argument. The younger you transition, the better your chance of living a normal life. The more gatekeeping there is, the more lives you ruin, forever. Gatekeeping gender affirming care leads directly to a lifetime of ostracization and eventual suicide.
I also think it's a tool we reach for much more often than is necessary.

Do you have any evidence for this? Because the vast majority of people who transition stick with it, and the vast majority of people who don't go back because of social pressures. here is an article about how many people are happy with the care they receive, I really think you should read it.

The comparable example I like to give is adhd. It isn't binary. You don't just have it or don't have it.

Yes, you either have it or you don't. You either have diagnosable, actual adhd or you don't. Sure, it can be worse for some people. But to be diagnosed, it has to be causing you problems in your life. Mental illnesses aren't something that everyone has to some extent.

Other people get by with therapy alone. Yet others find medication necessary to be functional.

Yes, people cope with their issues in different ways. Same for trans people. Most don't get top or bottom surgery, for example.

I know everyone hates this word, but starting with more conservative treatments first is the norm throughout healthcare for exactly this reason. We've made an exception for transgender people for political reasons, not scientific ones.

I hate the word conservative for reasons completely unrelated to how you use it here, I'm not sure why you'd mention it. And there's not an exception for trans heathcare, why would you think that?
Someone has reported this as "transphobic" so I just want to be clear that every situation is different and people are entitled to express their concerns. There are people who are living their best life afterwards and people that do not get what they expect out of transitioning. It is complex and not something I'm going to sit here and pretend I even understand 100%. I'm just the mod, not an expert. That being said, I'm not just going to censor anyone on here for a mild skepticism. That is your teachable moment if you have something to say. Some people really never never encounter these issues first hand. That doesn't mean they're coming from a place of hate, just confusion, ignorance, etc. Let us be wary not to confuse the two paths and let us remember love leads everyone back regardless of the path. And that's all I've got to say about that. :)
- The admins will also remove that comment if it breaks lemmy.worlds instance rules
  
  https://mastodon.world/about
It's silly that this reasonable comment is being mass downvoted. Things that permanently change people should be done carefully and with a lot of safety checks. We can all agree on that.

For me all of this gets more important the younger the kid is.

I have no bone in this fight, but people shouting like we have all of this 100% figured out is simply wrong.

In fact what I'm seeing is, conservatives are anti trans, which is 100% wrong, so liberals are going 180 against them and claiming everyone should be transitioning.

I was listening to a discussion where a gay man was saying that when he was young, he might have been pushed to transition because he was effeminate, when really he was just gay and is now a happy gay man.

Anyway, I wish people would just come off the extremes and we bring in nuance and humility. Admitting that there is a lot about the human body and mind that we simply don't understand yet.
- It's being downvoted because it's both a false equivalency and a strawman. I have never heard of anyone arguing that anyone with a hint of dysphoria should be immediately pushed to fully transition, except in extremely unreliable "news" sources with an anti-trans agenda.
  
  The current standard of care in medicine, especially for children, is already quite cautious. You can't just show up at the doctor tomorrow and go under the knife the day after. It's more likely to be too difficult, as you have to be fortunate enough to find a supportive medical team within traveling distance.
- Things that permanently change people should be done carefully and with a lot of safety checks. We can all agree on that.
  
  Everyone does, and they are being done with lots of checks. The above comment isn't saying that though. They're claiming that those checks aren't being done, which is just not true. The rate people regret gender reassignment surgery is orders of magnitude less then many common surgeries, like knee replacement.
  
  liberals are going 180 against them and claiming everyone should be transitioning.
  
  I have never seen a person arguing for that. I have seen people arguing, and passing laws, for the opposite though.
- Liberals arent going 180 and saying everyone should transition.
  
  Liberals are saying it's none of your business and let people make their own life choices. If they want to transition, then let them. If they don't, let them. If they change their mind later, let them.
  
  Everyone has to learn their are consequences to their choices and if they transition before they are sure, it's their choice and their consequences to deal with.
- Mind if I ask where you heard liberals are jumping to that extreme? If you talk to random people on the street, I doubt you'd find more than maybe 1/1000 people expressing that view (and even that many would be surprisingly high).
  
  The right wing generally doesn't want people to gain new freedoms. Conservatism, fascism, etc. are hierarchical ideologies. They require people to exist in a chain of command, where lower status people are controlled by those with higher status. One of the biggest tricks used to keep people playing this game is fear. Exaggerated or completely false claims are made and spread amongst their base. "The left wants to take all of your guns!" "The left wants you to worship satan!" "The gays want to ..." etc.
  
  Generally, all the left wants is for everyone to get to live their life without arbitrary restrictions/judgement. If a news source is claiming that "the left" wants to control how someone lives their life, take it with a huge grain of salt. All too often, the bold claims coming from the right are distorted confessions. And if real people on the left are calling for a restriction, the intent is to apply it to everyone, themselves included, and there is a reasoned argument behind that conviction.
- many of us probably would have been convinced to do so
  
  No one is being convinced of anything. People are being enabled to live as their true selves.
  
  I also think it’s a tool we reach for much more often than is necessary.
  
  There is no data to back this up, nor is there any reason to think it's true. Trans people, even just considering the youngest generation, remain a very small percentage of the general population.
  
  Giving gender affirming care to all people with gender or body dysphoria is like giving high dose Adderall to all people who have trouble paying attention in history class. It’s the nuclear option, and you’re using it on someone who may not even have adhd, or may not require such a strong intervention.
  
  Any medical treatment should not be prescribed without a doctor's due consideration. Gender affirming care, at any age, is no different. There is not a nuclear option available or used for minors expressing they want gender affirming care.
  
  I know everyone hates this word, but starting with more conservative treatments first is the norm throughout healthcare for exactly this reason. We’ve made an exception for transgender people for political reasons, not scientific ones.
  
  No such exception has been made, certainly not for trans kids.
  
  So, that's why the comment has some downvotes. And probably should have more. The comment isn't a differing opinion; it's factually incorrect.
- True, I don't know any trans people directly, but i certainly wonder if getting the transition is good for them. If i can't see people discuss both points of view because it's "transphobic", i'm forced to draw my own conclusions.
  
  Just to be 100% clear, I am gay and have had my fair share of biggotry, so i know what it's like. But the fact that i need this disclaimer is concerning to me. I believe that overprotective censorship is responsible for a lot problems we have in 2023. People cannot learn if they cannot ask questions without being told they are evil.