Singular they rule
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I have normally used "they, their and them" when referring to a singular person for about twenty years because I thought that "he/she" and "his/hers" looked ridiculous in emails.
For example; "Next time the engineer feels like he/she needs to overhaul the code..." versus "Next time the engineer feels like they need to overhaul the code...". Clean and simple.
Example of current use:
Bob - "Hey Jo, Frank thinks we should tweak widget X."
Me - "Yeah well, they don't know what the fuck they're talking about."
I don't think that sounds weird.
Singular they sometimes works and sometimes it sounds odd. It usually sounds off when used by itself without following something explicitly singular.
"The customer forgot their wallet. Can you bring it to them?" sounds correct but if you just do
"They forgot to pay their bill" it sounds like you're referring to multiple people instead of a singular person.
Edit: Changed to a better example.
“They left their wallet on the table” it sounds like you’re referring to multiple people instead of a singular person.
Does it? If multiple people left multiple wallets on the table, it would be, "They left their wallets on the table." Multiple people can't really leave a single wallet behind. Or at least that would be very unusual and unintuitive.
I honestly have never understood why people take the effort to write he/she instead of singular they? Like it's 2 words instead of 1, why bother? Even in academic articles which typically have word count limits lol
If I have to write a he/she, I usually write it as "(s)he", but I usually avoid that too, because to me it seems like I assume a male, but maybe female, which defacto puts an implication on the term that women are not as good as, or equal to their male counterparts.
The whole thing is ridiculous.
The only argument I've ever heard from anyone about why they don't want to use "they" as a singular pronoun is that it feels wrong, or that it's a plural pronoun (which it is not, and never has been). Neither argument is valid IMO, and the entire practice shifts the discomfort of the chosen pronoun from listener to speaker or vice-versa, depending on the situation. If someone wants you to use the pronouns they/them, and you have any respect for them at all, you'll do it, and suffer that discomfort for their benefit.
Not an expert, but I've followed the growth of this word a little on-and-off.
Disambiguity can be important in a language. But it's complicated. Many times we use "he", "she", or "he/she", gender is not required. Back in the 1800's, the standard was to use "he" when gender was uncertain, unimportant, or ambiguous to a conversation. Obviously it had to do with the presumed defaultness of the male gender.
For a while, people toyed with "it" or "which". Honestly, my personal feeling is that it was the way insult could easily be taken (or given) with "it" that it died out.
"They" probably should not be used in cases a less ambiguous word is more appropriate... But that's when the bigots come out. In most cases, the most appropriate word to reference a person is that person's preferred pronoun if you know it, even if it's a genderfluid pronoun. Why? It's significantly more descriptive than "him" or "her". But these same people who consider "they" too general would break down to acknowledge any person having a gender identity different from their birth sex (and probably their genital birth sex for intersex folks, at that).
What all the offense is REALLY about is that they want to pretend some people are fiction, or subhuman. I think "it" would settle well with those folks. Which is why I'm glad that isn't a default.
Frank is such an idiot. Why did we ever let them onto this team?
Good example. There are a ton of these.
Lots of people talk past each other on this. Singular they to refer to a known single person is an invention of the last few years and is the thing that a lot of people are up in arms about. It gets confused with the centuries-old usage of using it to refer to an unknown or undetermined person. Your first example is in line with the latter, and your second example is the new usage. TBH I'd be confused by your second example. Is Frank part of some larger group that doesn't know what they're talking about? Or is it only Frank that doesn't know what he's talking about?
No, it's been used for at least 400 years.
It's actually even older than that though. It's over 600 years.
https://nyulocal.com/shakespeare-used-the-singular-they-and-so-should-you-6452240ca9e0
To be clear, this example, where the singular they is used for a person of any gender, is confusing to you.
Example of current use:
Bob - “Hey Jo, Frank thinks we should tweak widget X.”
Me - “Yeah well, they don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about.”
Is Frank part of some larger group that doesn’t know what they’re talking about? Or is it only Frank that doesn’t know what he’s talking about?
Based on the above questions, the confusion is about attempting to identify if the singular they or plural they is being used.
But these variants with a person with an ungendered name or description are fine. Example with ungendered name:
Bob - “Hey Jo, Kelly thinks we should tweak widget X.”
Me - “Yeah well, they don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about.”
Example with ungendered description:
Bob - “Hey Jo, the engineer thinks we should tweak widget X.”
Me - “Yeah well, they don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about.”
If that is true, that the second and third examples are not confusing, then determining whether the singular they or the plural they is being used is not the source of the confusion. As in all three examples, we have a person who was previously referenced excluding the possibility of the plural they. In the first example Frank, in the second Kelly, and the third the engineer. All that has changed in the first example is that the singular they has no restrictions based on name or description. If that grammatical distinction is the source of the confusion, so be it, but let's be clear on what the confusion is.
Source I used to unpick this, specifically the first table in section 3: https://www.glossa-journal.org/article/id/5288/
Yep. Using "they" and "them" as singular pronouns is actually really common, but in it's (until very recently) common usage, it's usually an indirect singular pronoun, rather than a direct one.
I'm no linguist, so my terms may be a bit off, but when referring to a single person, or multiple people indirectly (without them involved in the conversation directly and/or, not talking directly to them). So for example, Joe went to fix the thing, and someone asks if the thing is being worked on... Yeah, Joe is on it, they will get it fixed.
That's normal.
The pinch for most people, that they can't seem to grasp, is that many seem to believe, whether they consciously realize it or not, that referring to someone as a "they" or a "them" directly is usually considered .... For lack of a better term, rude. In the same vein as calling someone by their name but getting their name wrong. It's impersonal which comes off, in their mind as insulting.
I'll give you an example, Frank just did a stupid. While standing in a group with Joe and Frank, Joe says, "then they decided to do the stupid."
Same with "they did it!" While accusing a singular individual.
The reason people don't like calling someone "they" and "them" is because on some level, they realize that the language is either dismissive or accusatory of the individual in question. Akin to calling someone stupid or using an undesirable nickname for someone, like referring to them by their race, or doing so via a racial slur; this example is a bit extreme, but you get the idea.
There's an absolute fuckload of examples of using they/them as singular pronouns, but people are still uncomfortable with it, often feeling like it's wrong to refer to someone like that without really understanding why; and because they don't understand why, they'll never intellectually move past the taboo of it.
Non-binary people have reclaimed the word as their own, and have asked the rest of us who are comfortable with our gendered pronouns, to use these words as their pronouns. So while it feels wrong/insulting to do it, it's actually insulting not to.
In German, the whole thing is another level worse because we don't have something such as the sigular they, since our 3rd person plural is already a third person singular pronoun too, the female one, so enbies either use custom neopronouns or the third person neutrum, in English that would be "it". And "it" is only used tor refer to objects, animals or monsters usually, so it feels like a whole other level of disrepect. I wish we had something as easy as the singular they. The latter is usually disrespectful but the former is usually dehumanizing and not even used for people you like, but only people you see as subhuman.
If you think gender neutrality in English is bad you should see other languages. Know steward/stewardess? In German almost every single profession is gendered like that. The solutions are constructs such as steward or stewardess, steward/ess, steward*ess, steward:ess (my favourite), stewardEss, steward_ess, the stewarding, and more. They aren't standardised. Oh and did I mention all singular pronouns are gendered, so its actually the steward or the stewardess, the/the(f) steward/-ess, ...?
Not to mention this applies to plural froms too, historyically the male form was used for mixed and all-male groups, and the female one for female-only ones, but in many cases that leads to people only picturing the male version, especially in historically male fields. Same for the singular version when the gender is unspecified. And these versions still dont include nonbinary persons, or those who use neopronouns here. The latter aren't much of a thing here, you are pressed to have anything gender neutral in language.
All of this doesn't improve readability, "Liebe Mitbürger" (fellow citizens) becomes "Liebe Mitbürger und Mitbürgerinnen, und auch alle anderen" (dear citizens and citizens(f), and all the others too); "Der Fahrer bremst sein Fahrzeug" (the driver slows down his vehicle) becomes "Der/Die Fahrer/in bremst sein/ihr Fahrzeug" (the/the(f) driver/ess brakes his/her vehicle); "die Wissenschaftler befrageten Taxi- und Busfahrer. Jede einzelne Teilnehmer" (the scientists surveyed taxi and bus drivers. Every single participant) becomes "die Wissenschaftlerinnen befragten Taxi- und Busfahrerinnen. Jeder einzelne Teilnehmerin" (the scinetistesses surveyed taxi and bus driveresses. Every*(m) single participant*ess).
German schools try to avoid having to write out "Schüler und Schülerinnen" (students and studentesses) by abbreviating it to SuS, but that has its own issues as you can guess, Among Us was very popular here in Germany too, every student knows memes, and often hangs in online spaces. The teacher equivalent would be LuL, they didn't even attempt that one. Can sound funny but is reality here, sadly until a few decades pass at least, if not much more. This is hard to change. And many hang onto the language, I love it too, more than English since its my own I think in still, I read books in etc. This will need a lot of energy to change somewhere reasonable. And it makes texts much longer in German compared to English, as it wasn't egregious enough already, "the vehicle owners" ( as used in legal documents/law ) becomes "Der/Die Kraftfahrzeugeigentümer*innnen " . This is not very readable at all, especially to foreigners, and fucks up submenus in programs as well as a lot of other formatting. We can't even dream of integrating nonbinary people into these expressions too at the moment yet now here, it is insanely compliated to get somewhere.
Its an absolute shitfest. English they/them is a piece of cake against that, and the poeple who still cry that much about it are oversensitive whiny removed. In Germany they at least have some practical justifications, albeit I think the use outweighs the downsides, but I see some points. I will continue to use these so-called "gendered" expressions, and they are now recommended for scientific publications, but there is a whole culture war about that, and applying it to spoken language is a whole different level. Don't get me started on dialects. The entire issue is so much fucked here - the gender-neutrality is what I love about English. Its one of its big adavantages. Cherish what you have already out there, its not a given. You are lucky for that situation. Be thankful for it. It is a great help.
I just don't get it, even before being aware of pronouns and such I used singular they all the time, e.g. "That's what they did" (referring to one person) or "They're thinking that aren't they?"
Welcome to outrage politics. People decide to bring a common language feature back or into the mainstream and so the outrage gang has to get outraged
It's because there isn't actually confusion about this. This is transphobes making up something to be angry and confused about in order to rope in the ignorant to harass trans people. It's not acceptable to say "trans people are bad, we should ostracize them" currently. So transphobes find something that could be confusing (nonbinary people using they/them) and convince ignorant people (people who don't know much about trans people and/or have no opinion) that it's confusing and wrong and people should "correct" them. Then you get ignorant people saying things like "they isn't singular" or "I can't get used to they/them and don't like using it." This creates a continuous debate on if trans people deserve to self-identify and generates constant micro-aggressions (or just full aggressions) against their entire community.
It's really just a way for transphobes to create a hostile environment for trans people over literally nothing.
Your comment makes it clear there is confusion. To clear it up, using singular they to refer to a specific, known individual is never something Shakespeare did, and is a recent invention. It's not transphobic to be grumpy about people trying to introduce a new usage for an existing word. People as a whole don't like change.
Yeah, but you're using it to mean "I don't know which pronoun to use." This is a different meaning than what's being describes here.
What's being described here is a person who decided that they don't want to be referred to as he or she, and has chosen to make themselves plural instead of using the singular nongendered pronoun already present in English.
Since that is a grammatical error, and this is the internet, I am obligated to ridicule this person, regardless of how well their meaning is conveyed.
/s, by the way.
So, to explain the German „sie/Sie“, it can be used as one of the following:
Great language, isn’t it.
Fun fact correction: if you happen to be Dieter Bohlen you are legally allowed to informally address everyone, including cops, and won't be fined.
In a nutshell, it's like English's they (plural animate or inanimate), it (for feminine objects, remember that german is a gendered language like french) she, and you (both singular and plural) combined.
Though, Sie meaning "you" is the polite version, used to address someone politely. For informal situations, there's the impolite and always-singular "Du"
While there are different conjugations and capitalization between the different uses of Sie, in the end they all use the same word.
It’s not about politeness.
If you’re on first name terms, it’s extremely rude to switch back to the formal address. Like, „FYI whatever our relationship was, I just burned that“ rude.
And more and more, people who don’t know each other immediately skip the formal part. I personally find „Sie“ rude, and I’m using it only for people I don’t like.
What's funny about those "grammar purist" people is singular "they" has been accepted common use in English for centuries, even older than singular "you". For some reason society got it in our collective heads in the fairly recent past that it was improper grammar, though, and that's what teachers often teach. I'm still not over my 5th grade teacher marking me down a point on an essay because I used singular "they". You're still wrong, Mrs. B.
Like many things, the damage was done by the British. Specifically one Bishop Robert Lowth. In 1762, he wrote a book of prescriptivist grammar rules starting with the premise that Latin is a perfect language, and any construction in English that doesn't match Latin is a flaw. This is where those nonsense rules like "never end a sentence with a preposition" and "never split infinitives" come from, as well as the claim that the singular they (in common use at the time) should be phased out in favor of the generic he, because that's what Latin does. The damage this one book did to the English language still has not been fully repaired.
Bring back thy/thine
You're confusing two different usages. Singular they to refer to an unknown or undetermined person has centuries-old usage, yes. Using it to refer to a known single person is an invention of the last few years.
As somebody whose primary language is Dutch, the lack of an explicit plural "you" is one of the worst things.
If I'm talking to somebody, I can't nicely refer to a group they are part of, because "you" means they themself specifically, "y'all" makes me feel like engineer TF2, and "you people" sounds condescending.
Just use y'all, it's great
Y'all is good, all y'all is better.
You could say "you lot" like our British friends.
"All of you."
...all y'all
...stateside it's regional whether folks use 'you all', 'you guys', or something more-specific to address plural groups...
Yall
Youins
Too informal sounding for all situations.
I hate English, it's also the only language I'm fluent in, so it's a love/hate relationship.
The disconnect that most people mistake here is between direct and indirect pronouns. Until recently, they/them has been used indirectly, to refer to someone who isn't present. To use it while they're present is uncomfortable for many not because it's supposed to be plural, but because it's supposed to be indirect. The only time you would (previously) say they/them in the presence of the individual in question, is to disregard them. An effort to make them irrelevant, like, I care so little about you that I'm not even going to recognise your presence.
They/them is very common as a singular pronoun. There's a ton of good examples of it being used in this way in this thread.
The thing I love/hate about English is that it adapts to how people use it, and right now, we're adapting they/them to be direct singular, instead of exclusively indirect singular. Unfortunately everyone knows this on some level, and while many are crying about it being plural (not understanding why it makes them uncomfortable), while it's definitely not, it is indirect, and the non-binary folks have asked us to use it as a direct singular for them (which I support).
IMO, this is a change that can, and by all means, should happen.
The hate of English for me is when perfectly good under-used terms have their definition applied to more commonly (albeit incorrectly) used words, a prime example of this is jealous. Historically it has meant: fiercely protective or vigilant of one's rights or possessions. Which, when applied to a relationship, results in the other definition for jealousy: feeling or showing suspicion of someone's unfaithfulness in a relationship. However, people have used jealous under it's newest definition for a while now, which is: feeling or showing envy of someone or their achievements and advantages. Which as the definition clearly shows, it's simply a showing of envy, or the act of being envious. The problem I have is that this legitimizes the incorrect use of the word, when we have another word that already means that.... Envious. One word co-opting the definition of another is simply a demonstration of the lazy nature of English speakers. We would rather redefine the commonly, and incorrectly used term than learn and use the correct one.
When it comes to they/them, there is no direct singular ungendered term for an individual besides "you", which will always refer to the person being spoken to. So a new term, or a new definition of an existing term is required. Non-binary people seem to have unanimously agreed that the terms that they want to adapt for this purpose is they and them. I'm fully in support of this, and while it may be uncomfortable for people to adapt to this new usage, it's something that should be done, and IMO, will be done.
Alternatively, we could co-opt a new word, either entirely unique, or derived from another language, for the direct singular ungendered person. This would probably be more comfortable for the more cis-normative population, but bluntly, getting all of the non-binary people, or at least the majority of them, to agree to the use of the new word, whatever it is, would be challenging at the very least, and it may, in a worst case, be rather insulting to those who prefer they/them, who wouldn't want to change that just to appease some gendered people who are uncomfortable with they/them. It's a valid option, but not one that I believe is viable.
On top of that, these are the pronouns they have chosen. As a matter of respect for your fellow humans, we should let the non-binary people choose the words that they would like to use for their pronouns. Something which they have already done, and those terms are they/them. If we, as a species, have any respect for eachother at all, we'll respect that decision, and adapt, regardless of the temporary discomfort we may have about it in the interim.
Another more cultural issue is the fact that there WAS a movement to create a new direct genderless pronoun, xe/xem. However, those who are hateful or resist this study of change to the language made a mockery of it.
People are always going to resist and mock, not on the word choice, but that it represents something that they hate.
my language doesn't have gendered pronouns so we just use "siya" for singular they and "sila" for plural.
I'm curious what other languages specify if "they" is singular or plural and how?
If you are curious I wrote several paragraphs about German gendered language:
I find it interesting how gendered German is. In contrast, in my language the default for a word is gender neutral. you have to state the gender if you want to specify it, and you only do that if the gender is relevant e.g. "the driver handed me my change" would be "inabot sakin ng tsuper yung sukli ko", but if you said "inabot sakin ng babaeng tsuper yung sukli ko" which means "the female driver handed me my change" then that means the gender of the driver is of relevance to the conversation.
an exception I can think of is spanish loanwords like "tindero/tindera" which is more commonly used to refer to shopkeepers and vendors here. we also use "ate/kuya"(sister/brother) when we talk to strangers e.g. "kuya alam nyo po kung saan yung pinakamalapit na sakayan ng dyip?" meaning "excuse me sir, do you know where the nearest jeepney terminal is?".
overall, I find it interesting to look into languages with different ways of using things that seem complicated to me. really makes me think what "foreigners" might think is complicated in my language that I take for granted.
...english has it but for some reason folks feel more dehumanised by gender-neutral solitary agency than by gender-ambiguous collective emergency...
when you realize they singular was sjw invented
Actually it's older than people think. Shakespeare used it for stuff like "Every knight grabbed their sword", and even for talking about a specific person it's not a new phenomenon to use singular they if the gender doesn't matter (so I was told in a linguistics sub over on r*ddit when I insisted it was new)
The only new thing is that people say, it's their prefered pronoun.
Man I love SJWs
TIL sjws invented a part of language… half a millennia ago.
Wouldn’t that just make it… part of the language at this point?
thankfully Chinese has always had a singular they, "他."
for your convenience:
by the way, 他 used to be he, she, or sing. they. the usage of 她 as she and 妳 as you (for females) is relatively recent. even now, you could replace all the ones with a "女" on its left with its "亻" counterpart and no one will say a thing. they are also pronounced identically.
Now we need one of those memes with an armored-up titan defending teensy singular "they". The titan is labeled "Shakespeare".
"Where's Bobby?"
"They went to the store."
Is just as grammatically correct as "He went to the store" or "At the store."
Clearly, we need more pronouns. Maybe something called, idk... neopronouns
What even is "singular they"?? First time hearing of this. Is it some pseudo gender thing promoted by the lgbtqia+ communities?
... you've not heard of singular they, a pronoun used in english by Shakespear himself, that existed before singular you?
"Oh, somebody forgot their jacket" has existed since forever.
See my other comments in this thread as well, but using singular they to refer to a specific, known individual was never something that Shakespeare did, and that is the usage that people are up in arms about. Your example uses singular they to refer to an unknown person, which is a usage that's been around for centuries, yes.
It's using they to refer to a single person. Some people think it's only supposed to be used for a group, but that's completely wrong. It's been used to refer to singular people since at least Shakespeare, if not longer. For example: "if some_one_ tells you they is singular, they are mindlessly consuming right wing media and not considering if it's actually correct."
It's just a generic he or she, I've seen it used for years and never thought it's related to any gender identity issues. Also they is easier to type than he/she. It's similar to how vous can be used for plural or singular. Although maybe it's not a thing in places that don't also speak French.
Maybe they didnt see your comment? Try asking them again.
Isn't "You" always singular? The words it's accompanied by make the overall statement plural. Like "you guys" or "you all". My brain might be slow this morning, but I can't think of any instance where it's plural without an accompanying word.
Nope, "you" can be 2nd person plural on its own. You can refer to a group of people as just "you"
For example, imagine a security guard saying to a group of shoppers "everybody listen up, you need to leave the store". You might use "you all" but it's not grammatically necessary, it just adds specificity.
I find this kinda fascinating because if you've thought this your entire life, you would have had to have read every intended plural "you" as singular and there would be nothing to inform you otherwise without very explicit context.
For the record, every 2nd person pronoun in the preceding paragraph can be singular or plural and still be grammatically correct while remaining socially correct for my speaking to an audience of unknown size. "You all" and "you guys" are slang phrases that don't appear in formal writing.
In portuguese, nearly everything has a gender. Você (You) is one of the few exceptions, but for "they" we have either eles (male) or elas (female), which will depend on what is being referred to. IE: they, the athletes = eles, os atletas (male), OR elas, as atletas (female).
Another example: the group = o grupo; it (the group) = ele (o grupo). Doesn't matter what makes the group, "the group" is "male".
What is the singular reflexive form of "they"? "Themselves" sounds too plural. "Themself" is inventing a new word, which is not problematic, but if we're going to invent new words we may as well start using "ve" or "ze" as gender neutral pronouns.
Would you be convinced if you found out that "themself" had precedent dating back to the early 1800s?
Oneself
"Yourself" is already a plural with a "-self" suffix. "Themself" is the same thing.
laughs in 1st person plural exclusive
Their little butt, tho! 🥺
Annnd on the next episode of "let's make shit up to pretend we're not really bigots"...
How do you do that in France when even table has a gender…
* Der Tisch betritt den Raum
It's actually an even worse mess politically than singular they! French is much worse in terms of gender, not only because the translation for plural they is gendered (any group containing something male is "ils", any group of only female stuff is "elles"), but adjectives are also heavily gendered!
My nonbinary friends I know irl just go for either bc it's easier. Some people use newly (ish) invented pronouns like "iel" or "ielle" which... I personally don't like because they don't fit the phonology very well and they're a mix of the two instead of a separate thing. Apparently some dialects used to/use "ul" and "ol" which are much nicer imo, but that still leaves the question of adjectives.
Ofc, all this also has the whole aspect of "the wokes going crazy", plus also France is very against the anglicization (however you spell that) of language and culture so there's that extra aspect (ironically, the right use "le wokeisme" which is a horrible anglicism, while railing against anglicization).
See my rant on German, same thing here:
In Slavic languages too