Train fares are up to 30 times more expensive than planes in Europe

Don't wanna be that guy but this article is a tad bit misleading. 13 euros for a plane ticket is an anomaly and probably due to governments funding airlines to encourage tourism to their countries.

That said, a couple hours on a rickety Ryanair for <13 euros beats buying a bunch of train tickets and the stress involved. Downside is missing out on getting to stop in some cool places and see some pretty sights with comfy leg room. (Also trains are more efficient due to the amount of people boarding)

It was certainly a click bait headline. But still a fair point that train fare averages are double airfare. Although we have to question, did Greenpeace throw out the outliers before compiling the stats?
- They definitely didn’t throw out the outliers for cheap airline flights.
€13 is cheap for Ryanair, but it's not some absurd anomaly. I went from Ireland to Italy for €18, and took a bunch of other flights for <€30.
Nah, cheap flight tickets are not an anomaly. Not the norm, perhaps. But at any given time you could easily find plane tickets for less than 50 EUR, which is less than you’ll ever pay for an international train journey.
- I mean it really depends on where you want to go and what kind of (how much) luggage you want to carry. A couple of years ago I flew to Stockholm from Berlin. Plane ticket plus luggage price was around 75€ or so. On the way back I took the train. 65€, unlimited luggage (I didn't need to throw away my cooking gas) and a really nice landscape on the way back, including a ferry ride.
They're just filling the seats at the last minute. THis has happened forever. Most of those seats would have been much more expensive, thought probably not as much as rail. I've never found long-distance rail travel to compete with air, which I suspect is a demand thing. Nobody wants to sit in a train for 12 hours when you can be there in 2 on a plane.
Yeah 13€ for a flight is like my current cross Germany train ticket for 15.99€, super rare and not a honest discussion basis.
- In my experience price is more between 20-60€ for flights in europe if you want to travel on a specific date and less if you're free to choose.
13 euros for a plane ticket is an anomaly and probably due to governments funding airlines to encourage tourism to their countries.

Governments subsidizing airlines over rail is one of the criticisms levied in the article:

The group has urged governments on the continent to introduce long-term, affordable “climate tickets” for public transport, including cross-border ones. They suggest these should be funded by a “phase-out of airline subsidies and a fair taxation system based on CO2 emissions.”
Booked a flight from Vienna to Tallinn for 16€ quite literally 5 minutes ago.

I think the discussion is just misdirected: There are distances, even within Europe, that are so large a train won't do it, no matter how cheap it is. Most people will not sit in a train for 10 hours when they can fly for 1 1/2. It turns out, going 800 km/h in a straight line is just more convenient. Who knew.

Now, do I think trains should be cheaper? Yes, most fares do not reflect at all the level of service you receive.

Do I think inter-european rail connections will ever catch on? lolno, bar the few train aficionados.

There are really only two options: Either we all stay within a radius in our lives that resembles that of let's say the 1960's - or we fly.
- I'm not very bullish on long-term potential for passenger train travel, but I don't know if I'd reduce it to "flight or 1960s travel radius" either. A few points:
  
  High speed rail doesn't push the radius out as far as air travel does, but it does extend it. The biggest issue for HSR, I think, is not passenger time, but cost -- if passenger train travel is already uncompetitive on price, faster train infrastructure is considerably more expensive relative to that. I am not sure whether that cost is fundamental or not -- maybe it's possible to find ways to build HSR infrastructure more-cheaply.
  
  Self-driving vehicles. Some of the objections I've seen to use of sleeper trains -- one way to mitigate the issues of trains being slower than planes is by having travel happen when asleep -- is people who dislike having shared sleeping environments. Maybe it's possible to do, oh, a self-driving car with a sleeper trailer or something like that.
- Yeah that's the unfortunate side. Given the situation it makes way more financial sense for the consumer to take the plane ticket unless they enjoy the novelty of a long train journey.
  
  Also had a situation recently where just a 1.5 hour train trip became 6 hours due to it breaking down in a town with few bus stops and no other trains, probably due to summer tourism. It would be nice if the rail infrastructure were even further expanded and tickets made cheaper to make it more competitive.

Completely crazy. I can’t wait till they fix this.

Luckily we're on the right track with Germany's 49€ ticket. Now these types of tickets just need to spread and maybe one day we're gonna have a unified EU ticket.
- Sure, but most train journeys you would replace a flight with are way too long and arduous with the 49€ ticket because that only allows regional trains and not the high speed IC/ICE trains. Those are the ones that need to get cheaper if we want people to stop flying.
- In austria we have a ~1000€ ticket for all public transport for a whole year. I think thats a great start, being able to use whatever bus/tram/train for 3€ per day is pretty awsome.
- Sure hope so. Meanwhile, in The Netherlands, we’re raising train ticket prices once again.
- But that also only works for short distance trains. And the distances you would go by plane are not really feasible like this.
- There is interrail for EU tickets.
Don’t worry, they ‘ll sort it so airline tickets are as expensive as train tickets shortly.
Monkey paw: they rise the price of plane tickets so both cost the same

We need to tax kerosene at the EU level. Would be a good way to have an independent revenue for federal institutions

But also subsidize trains at the same time. Otherwise we just forbid poor people from traveling
- Trains are already heavily subsidized but I agree, fares have to go down for people to use it more.
I don't think the problem here is the low price of (some) flights... It's the high price of (most) train rides...

Im sorry but 12$ for a plane ticket. Anywhere. That sounds either a lie or fishy.

Maybe its 12$ and then 100 for “fees Of 70$ for any bag. Or something

Or the air company is trying to destroy trains and is flying at a loss.

A checked bag can be had for as little as €20 sometimes. Or just travel with a backpack as "personal item". Definitely possible to fly for €10. €30-€50 is more common though.

It's ridiculous.
Lot of budget airlines sell cheap tickets for the last seats of short hauls in that price range.

In Eastern Europe, it's a whole thing, people buy a cheap ticket for under 30 EUR there and back anywhere. Think like Budapest to Milan, spend a weekend, maybe not even booking a hotel.

It's bad for the destination as well, because if you can't pay for the plane ticket, how are you going to pay for anything else? But you still take your space in the crowd.
- If that’s the case then for the purpose of the article the fare for €13 can only mislead. That is, it’s the avg ticket price that matters for comparison to trains.
  
  The environmental problem is that the plane is taking off. If that happens, then it might as well be a fully booked aircraft.
It's real, many flights are dirt cheap, especially flights to Amsterdam via KLM from neighbouring countries. I remember waaay back in the day when I was trying to get to Russia from Ukraine to see my then online girlfriend, I had an option of going by bus directly or flying through Amsterdam for the same price but a long layover. Like, literally, across all Europe and back on a flight was the same price as a direct bus ride.
The sad part is that even with the fees the plane remains cheaper than the train.
I literally bought a ticket for 10 euros everything included from Ryanair just now. Ne bags or anything though, but I'm a backpacker and it's allowed.
My plane ticket was 1€ a decade ago through Ryanair. Taxes brought it up to 16€ though. I think checking a bag was 20€ and you could check up to a 20kg bag.

Kerosene should be taxed by an EU-wide tax.

As of 2023, commercial kerosene consumption is currently tax exempt under the legislation of all member states of the European Union.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerosene_tax

Why not rather do something to make trains more affordable? People need and want to travel, making air travel more expensive will just cause people to get stuck at home.

It's especially odd since trains inside countries tends to be affordable (and subsidised), but internationally it can get super expensive very quickly.

While those same tracks are used for cargo, so it's not like the whole European track network needs to be maintained just for a few passenger trains.
Kerosene should be taxed by an EU-wide tax.

Yes, or price carbon according to scientific recommendations, and remove exceptions like for Kerosene.

This article is a load of bullshit. They basically only compared train prices from the UK to Europe and said it was more than flying. Sure, but that's because train prices in the UK are ridiculous, not because train prices in Europe are ridiculous. The UK is the outlier, always has been.

Taking a train in the UK, even across the UK, is sometimes more expensive than driving - it usually is when you factor in getting from a station to somewhere else. Meanwhile, taking a train within Europe is generally very affordable. The difference is the governments in the mainland actually regulate and ensure investment.

In Germany you can get a train to anywhere in the country for about €20, and children up to 14 are free. There's also Interrail tickets you can get across Europe that cover regions or countries, when the UK was a part of this system the UK-wide ticket cost roughly the price of 3 EU countries, even though the UK is much smaller.

I'm from Germany, and none of the things you said are true. For example, to get from Aachen Central station to Hamburg Central station the cheapest option is 23,90€, but that connection is from 8pm to 3am. If you want to ride in the day, your cheapest price is the Quer-Durchs-Land-Ticket ("Cross-Country Ticket") at 44€. But that way you are only allowed to use regional trains, which will make it a 7 hour train ride. If you want to use intercity trains (still a 5 hour ride), you will pay around 70-90€. And all of that is for 2nd class.

The age cutoff for children to travel for free is 6 years, children from 6-14 and 15-27 years travel at variously reduced prices (39€ for regional-only, 42€ for intercity).

I don't know where you got your information, but here in Germany, we are in the same situation as the UK. And while trains in the UK may be painfully slow on cross-country travel, I have felt that they were much more comfortable to travel on, given the absolutely abysmal state of a lot of our trains.
- I was basing it on the information on this page: https://www.bahn.com/en/offers/saver-fare although now that I look at it the prices are "from" ~€20. IIRC there was also a limit on train prices across Germany over the summer, I think I may have confused these two.
  
  €70-90 intercity is still cheaper than £100 to get halfway across England, with prices going up from there. Particularly when you look at the distances travelled. Again, this is standard fare, first class is much more expensive.
  
  While maybe not as cheap as I was saying, train travel most definitely is better and cheaper in Germany than the UK, in my experience. I was in Germany a couple months ago using the train to get around. The situation might be headed in the same direction, but it's far better over there.
  
  For a specific example, Munich to Berlin takes 4-4.5 hours by train, compared to 5.5 hours driving, a distance of 590 km / 360 miles. The 4 hour route can be €70 euros, peak price is €170 while if you travel late in the day you can get it for just €17.90. Meanwhile, Bristol to Leeds is only 209 miles or 330 km, takes 3.5 hours by car or by train, but a train ticket will cost you £108.10 one way super off peak (after morning rush).
  
  So I guess German trains can be as expensive as UK trains, but you get many more cheaper options than we do - all while covering greater distances with trains that are quicker than driving.
This is definitely a bullshit comparison because there's no way that flight doesn't come with a ton of airport and processing fees and taxes, making its final price many times what's listed here:

the cost of the train was 384 euros (about $430) compared to 12.99 euros for the Ryanair flight – making the train 29.6 times more expensive than the plane.
- This is definitely a bullshit comparison because there’s no way that flight doesn’t come with a ton of airport and processing fees and taxes, making its final price many times what’s listed here
  
  And then we haven't talked about externalities yet. Planes cause so much more climate damage (which someone will have to pay), air pollution, probably noise pollution and possibly more.
- Yeah they're taking the first price Ryanair advertise, rather than the final price you end up paying. Also, you can't bring anything with you at that price, just your carry on bag.
  
  Meanwhile, cutting out the UK, a train from Paris to Barcelona can be had for €45 if you book well in advance (2 months), maybe even less than that.
In Germany you can get a train to anywhere in the country for about €20

While this is true, there's a big asterisk attached to the statement.

DB adjusts the ticket price based on how many seats are still empty (asking other things).

Which means the earlier you book the cheaper the tickets are. But prices can ramp up quickly.

For an unpopular connection (mostly through the night) it can be enough to book 1 week in advance.

However for popular connections at prime times you gotta book at least a month in advance.

Depending on circumstances, it's nice and it sucks at the same time.
- Depending on circumstances, it’s nice and it sucks at the same time.
  
  Yeah, that was the general impression I had when I dug deeper.
  
  Still, your trains are quicker than those in the UK, and they can be much cheaper albeit maybe sometimes a bit more expensive.

In France it's pure greed. The government keeps trying to pawn off any public utility that doesn't generate revenue since that Jupiter wannabe took office. I don't know how politicians convinced billions of people that public utilities must be profitable...

SNCF is deeply in debt. French Train Travel is very affordable with OuiGo, TER Fares are also quite cheap with discount cards, and for young people TGV Max (79€/Month for unlimited Travel including High Speed) is also a great option. Unfortunately the 4th rail package of the EU will destroy all State Railway Operators forcing to tender out all services starting 2030 This will also lead to cuts of "unprofitable Routes" and generally lead to shitty service as the cheapest always wins. If you want an example look to German regional services which are all tendered out. Every day they are cancellations because someone became sick and they have no reserves. The same with Trains. Most of them travel with reduced capacity, because not all sets work, some are also cancelled for this reason . I really love the EU but this is some very shitty legislation. The current state where the member states could choose wether they want to liberate their rail market or not is much better
Oh, this reminds me of the UK

In Germany, it's greed. I remember 18 years ago a train ride to the next city to go to the movies was 1.30 euros. Today it costs 5.80 euros. That's not inflation, that's just greed.

They gotta finance their infrastructure somehow.

Oh, right. They're incentivized to not do exactly that. So they can cry to the government for even more funds.
- Even more obscene is that they used to have a monopoly by law until sometime in the mid-2000s. No other corporation was allowed to compete with Deutsche Bahn, a remnant of Hitler's agenda to strengthen governmental grip on public transport.
  
  And still they managed to have deficits in every financial quarter.

Doesn’t really go into the reasons for the price difference?? I doubt kerosene subsidies counts for everything?

Btw I like trains and think we should ban a lot of flights that can be serviced with quick alternatives

There was something about France banning domestic flights that take less than 2(or 3?) hours by train.

Which makes a shit ton of sense. The same stretch is not gonna be shorter by plane when you factor in the extra ceremonies you have to attend both before and after the flight, and the time it takes to get to and from wherever the airport is.
- Such short flights would be mostly connecting flights, so the check-in and customs overhead is a fixed constant anyway.
think we should ban a lot of flights that can be serviced with quick alternatives

Doing that without actually bringing down the train fares would be frustrating. Budget airline tickets in Europe are ludicrously cheap.
- Good point, because we rely on what little competition there is to get reasonable pricing.
- Test

Price is not even the issue for me, it’s availability. I tried to book a ticket from Zurich to London for December. There are apparently not connections available anymore. I would gladly pay more than if I would be taking a plane, just give me the option…

There is Europe problem with integrated universal ticket system. There is lots of lobbing against it mainly from France, Italy, Spain. Then there would be some accountability for late trains, connections made... They just don't want to do it.
- Yeah…sad to hear that. I did it before a few years ago, really nice experience. Sad to see it go.
- More than accountability is likely prices. Train in Italy is much more expensive than switzerland or Germany. A single ticket would force them to lower prices
- There is Europe problem with integrated universal ticket system. There is lots of lobbing against it mainly from France, Italy, Spain
  
  I'm not sure whether a common ticket is a good idea, but I also don't see why this needs to be a barrier. Other than Portugal and the UK, which need to connect through those countries, no other countries in Europe need France, Spain, or Italy onboard to agree to a common system. You just can't travel in those countries with it.
  
  EDIT: Well, okay, and Andorra and Monaco and Vatican City.
Use thetrainline.com for international train travel. I found these for you as an example. 144€, 8 hours, change in Paris. Meanwhile, flying is <60€, under 2 hours.

I know what I would choose, haha.
- Awesome thanks, yeah I can’t choose a plane if there is a reasonable train connection available. I will never set foot in a plane that is run by a company that can somehow afford < 60 euro tickets.
  
  Edit: I see, it seems to be the date I want to travel, December 20. does only return a bus connection.

People don't vote for these kinds of things. They just complain about it and then vote for whichever party shouts the loudest about immigration which, as we all know, is the most important issue on the planet. Nothing could ever be more important

Ok, apart from the biased article, the price (that sometimes is a bit more for trains than flights) isn't as much of a problem as the mix and match of railway systems across europe which makes it awfully difficult to get from here to there fast and without a lot of changing trains. Each change is a risk of being late once your train is delayed and then your whole journey is off.

For the love of God, I really tried to find a train connection to Pula from Munich. I really tried. Even thought going through Italy, and taking a ferry from Venice. But it would have required changing trains 6 times or so and would have taken approx. 24 hours, whilst being indeed more expensive - as far as I could tell, since I cannot buy all the tickets at one place. I still feel horrible but I ended up flying there. If I was by myself I would have taken on the trip with the changes. Or considered a coach although all my experiences with coaches sucked so hard. But with a one year old it was just not feasible.

Adam Something has a great video on why trains in Europe are... Not as simple.

Yup, and in the Netherlands the main train company is planning to make it even more expensive on purpose, in order to discourage people from taking the train.

Well the Government could fund an expansion on the crowded part of the networks.
I drive along the A1 near Amersfoort every morning and more cars isn't really the solution. I'm considering working from home more. Probably will once I've worked at this company a little bit longer.

I think their business model is ripping off tourists by charging excessive bag fees while EU residents with small bags get to fly cheaply.

It's not just bag fees, there are also fees for choosing a seat, ticket changes, insurance, email or txt notifications, ...

I wish it made sense for me to take bus or train to visit family on the other end of Europe, but it's both more expensive. Makes me feel half bad about a trip I should enjoy. Why is everything upside down?

This is the report:

https://greenpeace.at/uploads/2023/07/report-ticket-prices-of-planes-vs-trains-in-europe.pdf

While undoubtedly the train fares are unreasonably expensive in several routes specially in UK, the comparison is mostly for longer routes like London to Barcelona or Madrid to Brussels, where you need to change several trains from different operators. Few would be willing to try such a route.

These kind of routes are not much favourable to trains and also the quoted Ryanair fare, I doubt 12.9€ is a last minute fare, it probably doesn't include airport fees and extras you might want like a luggage and so on.

I’m looking at going from Barcelona to Paris, both plane and train has direct connections and on the dates I am considering, it’s about 50 eur for the plane and 130 eur for the train each way. Both the airport and trains station are close to me and the trains also has a security check and the queue that comes with that, so I’m still not sure what I’m going to pick.
- funny, I was looking at the same connection in autumn and the price difference was similar. I have no problem with the longer trip, but the cost is prohibitive. for two people the train tickets from Germany to Paris and then onwards to Barcelona are ~700€ round trip. flights are less then 400€, and that's a regular airline not Ryanair...
- The difference will not be as big as it seems, 50 Euro is perhaps Ryanair basic fare. I am sure they will charge you for even the carry-on luggage and they fly you far away from Paris. If you go to CDG it will be around 100 euro which is still less than the train but not much more.
  
  Milan Paris is served by TGV InOui and Trenitalia and the prices were nowhere near that different. Trenitalia is somewhere between 80-120 Euro each way which is the similar price you would pay for EasyJet on this same route. When I took this train last week (both ways) they tended to be full, you normally cannot find last minute tickets, so the demand is there it seems.
  
  Don't get me wrong there is a lot of room for improvement (really a lot) try to go a bit further maybe to go to Venice instead of Milan and you are looking at 150-200 Euro fare and that's with the same operator.

This is why I'm flying to Edinburgh soon rather than taking the train (like I would prefer to). So much cheaper

I don't think train can compete with a long distance means of transportation that is

1- equally or less time consuming.

2- works very similarly across countries.

3- only needs infrastructure at the start and end stops instead of for the whole journey.

What we need is to figure out a way to use less polluting, carbon neutral or non-polluting fuel for airplanes, and less of it with more efficient designs.

I don’t think train can compete with a long distance means of transportation

That's true. Trains can compete mid-range, or should be able to compete. With better infrastructure and organization (high speed rail, coordinated timetables, unified booking, ...), this range can be extended. There will always be a certain distance after which planes are the better choice.

But we still should invest to push this point further into the distance, to make planes as obsolete as possible. Trains should be the cheapest option between short distance (bus) and long distance (plane). If they are not, we are doing something wrong in creating incentives.
- I want to see long distance high speed night trains. I want to see trains riding bumper to bumper. I want to go overnight from Berlin to Oslo. Or Paris up Bucharest. Porto to Utrecht.
- Note as well a German company recently brought back the sleeper carriages. When the travel happens overnight while I’m asleep, I tend not to care how long it takes.
  
  Nothing is better than being able to board the train with free luggage allowance and without all the TSA lines, harassment, confiscations, etc. No wasting of my awake time (unlike air travel). Then waking up at the destination is effectively like zero time wasted.
The plane is not that fast. You have to factor in travel to the airport (outside the city), check-in, security gates, boarding, baggage claim on the destination, which can add up to 3h or more per trip. With a train, you start in the city center and just hop on board.
To your last point, believe it or not, but planes are getting significantly more efficient. Huge wide-bodies like the 747 are retiring in part because airlines don't want to lug around 4 engines, when the 787 can do the same trip with 2.

The a320 neo has a much better engine than previous generations, and same thing with the 737 max (crashing problems aside).
- crashing problems aside
  
  Ok but that caveat is doing a lot of work there
Depends on when long distance starts for you. I'm very much open to take a train across Europe if it's reasonably priced and convenient, even if it takes considerably longer. Really wouldn't mind an overnight train either for example, if they weren't so damn expensive (and constantly booked out).

Anything that's less than 3-4 hours by plane is fine by me to switch to the train for 8-10 hours imo.
- Agree about the long distance being subjective. I live abroad and have a job so for me it's not an option to use 2 days of my holiday time just to travel back and forth for one visit home. So I definitely mind that it takes considerably longer.
  
  Well 3000 km is about 2h30 by plane. A train that goes 180km/h without any stops will still take 17h. I agree all the check in and travel to the airport definitely sucks, and I'd rather board on a train any day. But even with that nuisance, a regular plane going a typical cruise speed of 900km/h will still leave trains in the dust for anything farther than say 2000 km and make it worth it.

I used to think as a child everyone in Europe is super rich. Because they always travel by planes

And in Paris it could cost you an extra €60 or something if there's random ticket check and you can't provide that you have the ticket. As a tourist I've seen this myself in Bir-Hakeim Station. Please keep your ticket, don't throw it away!

That sounds pretty reasonable to be fair. How else are they gonna check your ticket? Though I get how it would be frustrating if there were no ways to book your ticket from your phone or pc, not sure if it's the case for Paris.
- Hi. As someone who are not from Paris or Europe all i could think is that everyone who ride the train will already bought their ticket as they will need it to pass the turnstile, so i often throw the ticket away after checking in at the turnstile.
That's how it is in most places. Or at least the places I have taken trains: Europe, Seattle, Portland, and NYC. Although in NYC they do not check for subway tickets. The regional train definitely checks though.
- I haven't been to the U.S, Thank you I'll keep that in mind.

I wonder what it costs to maintain rolling stock and railway lines with their associated infrastructure.

Planes don't have to maintain bridges and level crossings on their entire route.

In Japan, it can be cheaper to fly than to take the shinkansen (bullet train), but the trains are much more convenient. No security checks like air travel, no waiting in line for ages, no going out of the way to get to an airport (one of "Tokyo"'s airports is actually a prefecture over in Chiba), etc.

Die DB vereint das schlechte von Zentral- und Osteuropa, aber auch Westeuropa: Teuer UND Scheiße.

Monopoly or near it. Planes have to compete.

Privatization backfiring?

Hope that stupid shit stays away from here. Choo choo mothafaker!

#Trains are mostly dead to me. Not just because of price, but also price inconsistency¹, the exclusive info systems² & payment shenanigans³.

Train fare from country A to country B can by bought in either country via the national rail provider. Each quote different prices for the same train. (the EU had some agenda to fix this, but apparently it has failed)
Tor users are blocked from even seeing which trains are available, and if that exclusivity doesn’t stop you sometimes there are extra hoops to see the prices.
Cash payers often have to pay much more than online payers (#warOnCash). Complex promos also make a game of it. E.g. there will be a cross-border weekend fare, but you cannot buy that ticket from your departure point. You have to take a train to the bordering town, get off the train, and buy the cheap cross-border ticket in that station, then get the next train.

Buses are:

cheaper most of the time
have open platforms (no blockade against Tor users or CAPTCHAs)
ironically have lower GHG than trains according to British research

Dang, no wonder America decided to scrap passenger trains altogether and go all-in on planes and cars (and buses if you can't afford either).