3mo ago

The poll is over, and the result is clear:

FireFox users have very little interest for Chatbot integration into their browser.

I am very much aware that the people, who voted in this poll are hardly a representative sample, but more than 2.4K people is a better size than many "professional" opinion polls.

@mozilla & @firefox should take people, who actually care about their #browser choice, seriously.

I still seriously believe that #Mozilla's fate matters,

https://berlin.social/@mina/113102817500429735

1/3

88 comments

If I want to use a chatbot, I'll access a website that provides one.
My browser is supposed to be a program that lets me access the internet, and nothing else.
- Or I'll have one installed as a separate app, which will have access to data on my system.
  So either it's a separate app, or it's a website. I don't see a need for my browser to be that app.
  
  And if I really really really wanted one in my browser (which I don't but for the sake of argument) I'll look for an add-on.
  Same reason I don't want my browser to filter or ban my content but I totally use unlock origin.
- Couldn't be more accurate.
- What Firefox provides here:
  undefined
  
  A connector to LLM providers. Accelerators (context menu options).
  From a coding perspective, this should ideally be a very lightweight functionality.
  This feature is very analogous to options to add a search engine, and also to provide accelerators via context menu.
  While it can be done via third-party or Official Mozilla add-ons, but (to me) it still makes sense to have it part of the product.

Eventhough I am not pro chatbot, such a poll is unfortunately completely worthless. Only random samples (or at least representative ones) allow to say something about a group.
If we go into an AI fanboy forum and ask the same question, we may find 3000 people saying the exact opposite. It just means nothing whatsoever.
- 100%. I feel like the broad fediverse community is not a fan of generative AI
  
  Does that mean they are not representative of the general population...?
- There's also the fact that it's a false dichotomy.
- @cmeio
  Yes and no.
  Obviously, the people questioned here, are not representative for the entire FF user community.
  However: The Fediverse at large is a community of mostly tech-savvy people, who do care about independence from major corporations.
  These are, in fact, also the people who are the core users and developers of FOSS software.
  Whilst the exact percentage means nothing, the tendency is so clear that it should, at least, be taken into consideration.
  Did you read part 2 & 3?
  
  https://johnmjennings.com/an-important-lesson-from-bullet-holes-in-planes/
  The responses needs to be contain representation at least equally to non Firefox people who no longer care to answer a poll about a product that they don't use. Why? Only current users are going to answer the poll, not the people with the cuts and pain that forced them back to Chrome or safari. Asking survivors how to reinforce survival actually doesn't solve for why do many people off board Firefox.
  Frankly you should ask people like my 60-70yo parents why chrome not Firefox. You'll learn more from that than the corrected responses of people who loudly have preferences but at the end of the day would stay either way. My parents tried Firefox, but then left it. Although they only tried from insistence from their son.
  PS: I agree with the poll. I don't want a chat bot either. If I did, I'd install a plugin that integrates once of my own choosing. Given the availability, privacy, and ease of lmstudio I'd rather leave it in its own place outside the browser and network. I don't know how those like my parents feel about a bot that can probably answer their questions. I also doubt they care. Maybe it would help them ask questions they're too embarrassed to ask friends and family for. Usually how to questions they've asked dozens of times. But that's super dangerous.

We want lighter and faster browsers that load up less features, block all unnecessary data collection and spying and java scripts, consume less hardware resources, and don't choke and heat up 8-gb ram laptops just because I openned 1 tab.
I don't want Siri in my internet. I don't even like it when it automatically searches and returns suggetions for mere typing anything in address bar. If I wanted a chatbot, I know how to visit chatgpt or any site myself.
- It's just an integration with LLM services and not AI baked-in the browser code. You can even self-host any such service (Ollama) and integrate Firefox with it. That will make sure your query is not leaving your network.
- Just a minor nit pick but it's JavaScript, not Java Scripts (javascript and Java are massively different things).
  Also blocking JavaScript on the web in 2024 is really not practical. Nothing will really work without it.
  
  You used to be able to run Java in the web, I remember the pain of applets.

Asking mastodon users whether they'd choose AI over Privacy is like asking Elon Musk if he'd rather end poverty or buy another mega yacht.
- I don’t think you thought this one through!
  To be the guy known for ending poverty for all time, having statues in every park on the planet? Or just another boat to park in your mega-garage of boats?
  Easy choice.
  
  Yeah, I dunno about that considering he promised to end world hunger if the UN could show him how the money was used. They did and he essentially told them to fuck off and donated it to himself instead: https://truthout.org/articles/musk-pledged-6b-to-solve-world-hunger-but-gave-it-to-his-own-foundation-instead/

aw man i missed the poll i would have voted "fuck no" to chatbot integration
- Would you rather have a AI or have your browser 2x slower?
  That is the kind questions that were asked
  
  lol. I'd take a browser that's 10x slower as long as it has no AI or crypto.
  
  No that was a different poll. This one asked "do you want 'enhanced privacy' or a chatbot in the sidebar" which, of course, is a false dichotomy.
  
  Is this the official Mozilla connect survey? I believe the question order and groupings were randomized, and that may have been a (IMO bad) control question.

I mean, I don't have anything against the chatbot feature, but this is coming before the tab group functionality...
- Presumably this one's less work, so even with them being worked on at the same time, no real reason to hold back the one that's done sooner. But apparently you can try out tab groups already: https://lemmy.ml/post/20000489

I wish Mozilla would just strip all the extraneous junk from Firefox aside from what is truly necessary for web browsing. No crypto, no Pocket, no chatbot integration, nothing AI related, etc. Any and all additional features should be implemented via optional plugins. They could rename the project something like Phoenix or Firebird or something like that.
- I bet they wouldn't be so dependent on that google money if they stopped trying to chase every tech trend that pops up regardless of interest or popularity.
  My perception of Firefox users is that most of us use Firefox for a reason, and thats usually some variation of moving away from big tech bullshit. I COULD be wrong but I certainly dont think so lol.
  
  Where would the money come from then? donations? Or do you mean they should shrink, fire people and downscale.
  I think it's too late for them to switch direction, not without a lot of people getting laid off. Though maybe that will ultimately happen if they finally end up bankrupt.
- Is there crypto stuff in Firefox? Also I like the Pocket integration...
  
  Not the currency
  There is a crypto method you can call for random number generation

No shit
- Its shocking how out of touch they are
  
  Almost none of the people who are excited about AI know anything about computer science. I say this someone who always encounters idiots claiming my computer science degree will soon be obsolete because of AI... lol

computer scientists: we have invented a virtual dumbass who is constantly wrong
tech CEOs: let's add it to every product
Borrowed from here

why can't we just have a fast, reliable browser with a clean UI that is fairly customizable with really solid extension support?
Extensions/plugins were supposed to provide the framework if users wanted a bunch of bells and whistles.
and I refuse to believe that a company with the resources of Mozilla cannot do that.
Minecraft is basically that in game form. A powerful voxel engine that has a massive amount of support for mods and plugins.
- Minetest is probably a better comparison
  
  Eh, fair point. Minecraft early on was more like what I was describing. For years now the devs have added a ton of content to the base game.
  Still, most people I know play with at least a few mods, even if it's just texture packs and some QoL mods for better UI/UX.

OT but: How does this Mastodon/Lemmy integration even work? OP seems to be posting on Mastodon but we are commenting on Lemmy which makes everything look confusing.
- I gave up trying to understand long ago
- Both services use the ActivityPub protocol, so to put it very simply the data format used by both services is the same, they just render it differently on your screen. Then they are pushing/pulling the data for posts and comments from other instances as users request it, e.g. by viewing this lemmy instance through Mastodon.

as being a prominent and established way of accessing the internet without using a product owned by one of three three tech giants.
No niche browser can play the same role.
To me, hopping onto a running train doesn't seem to be the way to go when it comes to creating and keeping trust:
People, who think that cars are a terrible way of getting people around in cities, don't want another Tesla, they want a good bike.
Here we have a problem, common to many non-profits:
2/3
@mozilla @firefox
- Fake Professionalism!
  I don't believe that CEOs, who demand a 7 digit salary, have the ability to understand the soul and heart of a collective of people (in the case of many #FOSS projects: some of the world's most skilled and talented programmers), who donate lots of their time and energy for a project they believe in, and hence lack the credibility and skills necessary for making them thrive in the long term.
  Firefox's ever falling market share proves that.
  3/3
  RFC
  @mozilla @firefox

Why not just PWA to side bar extension support? If users want that side bar to a chatbot. Boom easy. If they don't or any other option its there too.
If they really want to support local ai specifically focus on the web3 API stuff for it.
Just be a web browser dammit lol
- Mozilla is desperate for any cash influx, AI in a browser is a hot sounding thing, right now. Perhaps they also hope they can leverage it for extra income.
  I run a Nightly on one of my machines and it was weird seeing the option and I hope it does not make it or that it gets removed.
  
  It's just a plain integration with 3rd-party or self-hosted LLM service.
  I'm not sure if Mozilla will make money from this feature in any way.
  Have you read anything about it anywhere?
  
  I mean I'm desperate for them to get a cash influx too, just not really sure how this does that. Maybe set up for another preferred default deal like they have with Google? Maybe privacy focused option as SaaS offering like they do with their VPN, but you ahead of the curve instead after VPNs became so common you trip over them.

please for the love of god almighty dont ad a chatbot or any other kind of gipity! even if one disregards all the concerns about privacy, software bloat and energy usage (climate change), one has to remember the purpose of firefox, or any other browser for that matter: loading websites. nothing more nothing less.

@mina @mozilla @firefox the absolut las thing I need in Firefox is a freaking Chatbot :) :) :) :)

Okay someone has to say it.
The second F in Firefox is NOT capitalized.
- @Eiri
  Oh fuck!
  I'm way too used to CaMelCase, it seems.
- I'm more privy to "_fireFox" when declaring my browser.

I don't want an AI chatbot in the sidebar, but if it gives Mozilla a new, substantial source of revenue outside the Google search deal--and I can disable it--then I'm all for it.
- I don't want an AI chatbot in the sidebar, but if it gives Mozilla a new, substantial source of revenue outside the Google search deal--and I can ~~disable it~~ enable it if I want to --then I'm all for it.
  Ftfy
- Can I just not have AI powered chat bots trying to sell me Pepsi?
- @somethingrandomtho
  Good point.
  
  @somethingrandomtho
  However: Revenue is a good thing. Being trusted by the community is infinitely more valuable.

I wish Mozilla would ask the end users what we want.
- @UncleAbbie
  This is way a too revolutionary idea.

Firefox user here: Fuck no I don't want a chatbot built into my browser.
- @hahaohwow
  You are definitely not alone!

I can't wait for other browser engine to caught up with Firefox

I think it can be useful for some users but hardly the majority.
You can select text now in Firefox and ask it to make a summary or to explain it in simpler words. Then it generates a query to chatgpt in the sidebar who answers it.
So for some use cases I think it's nice. Even better if you could make it do research and save us time. Like "check the top tech sites for reviews of this phone model and give me a summary of it's major flaws".
Chat gpt can do that but it's not really integrated into the Firefox experience. If you could select a phone name and have a one click option to "give me top flaws and pros of this model according to top reviewers", that could save a lot of time.
I think it's just about packaging this functionality better. I don't think it should be in a sidebar. It should just be in a new tab with lots of options to continue the research in different ways.
- That's not private in the least. If anything add optional support for ollama
  
  They have a choice of different models in the Nightly version of Firefox. So I think we are getting there. Maybe even an option to run our own self hosted models.
- For the use cases you describe actually sound right on the mark? If you're viewing a page and you want something summarised on there, it would be nice to not have to leave that page, but to stay in its context, for example. If you're looking at the specs of a particular phone, ditto.
  (I don't expect I'll use this feature myself, but if I did, it sounds like I'd use it in that way. Luckily, I can just choose not to use it without any downsides.)
- Then there are the cases where you want the LLM to actually interact with the page, using the current web page state and your credentials.
  For example, one might want to tell it to uncheck all the "opt in" checkboxes in the page.. And express this task in plain English language.
  Many useful interactive agent tasks could be achieved with this. The chatbot would be merely the first step.

Can this poll be considered official ? I clicked the link and it looks like a Twitter poll or something.

I used to always have a ChatGPT tab pinned, so I wouldn't mind. That said, the integration is just plain terrible. To be more precise, the whole experience with the sidebar is terrible. Why can I only have one and not even choose the default one? I need two clicks to get to the assistant, which is one more than just pinning a tab...
In Brave, the integration is so much better. They have a dedicated button (that you can also disable iirc), that opens a sidebar with only the chatbot. Moreover, you can choose from a bunch of models or link your own. You are not constantly at risk of accidentally sending something to it when selecting text, because neither is "AI" the top option in context menus, nor is one opening automatically. AI doesn't appear in search. And it can even do more (e.g. "summarize this entire page"), while there is also no need to log in.
In short: This seems not thought through at all. And if it was, maybe the reactions would be less negative.

88 comments