4mo ago

Organized Left

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This should show everyone clearly, unambiguously, without a doubt that conservatives in America have zero idea what progressivism or leftism is about at all.
It's just words to them. They do NOT care. It's WWE wrestlemania. They want to paint their faces and get swept away in a stageplay and die as heartbroken as the hero if they don't succeed and make all their enemies pay.
We need to like, mass-spam the entire Midwest america with historical romance novels with bodice-ripping sex scenes. I think if more guys just got lost in that shit, we would have a lot less tension and pain in the world.
- We need to like, mass-spam the entire Midwest america with historical romance novels with bodice-ripping sex scenes. I think if more guys just got lost in that shit, we would have a lot less tension and pain in the world.
  Doing that to somewhat compensate for harm from romantic chatbots and porn would be absolutely beneficial.
- This + MDMA in the water supply
  
  It'll probably react badly with all the heroin and barbs they take out there
  
  Now that you mention it I am a little thirsty....

What's the old Trotskyite joke? Two members, three parties?

Man, I can't even agree with myself most days.
- I'm imagining you doing the Gollum thing arguing with yourself about theory and both sides accusing the other of being a revisionist
  
  I wish you were further from the truth.
  
  Some people are more in love with the process than the progress. It's a common failing in organized people.

Unfortunately in this case, it's projection. The right falls in line and they accomplish stuff because of that. The left could really learn from that.
- The right falls in line because they're fascists who are afraid of thinking for themselves. Diversity of thought causes discourse, that's a natural fact, but it should be celebrated as a strength. Looking for leftists to shut up and fall in line is like peak "enlightened centrist" thinking.
  
  There's fascists, american monarchists, libertarians, religious nuts, the rare fiscally conservative, the 2A'ers, etc.
  Who said "leftists to shut up"? Not me. You can bemoan the 2 party system all you want, but it's what's here. The way for the left to be actually effective in achieving at least some of its goals is to give Dems consistent and overwhelming victories.
  
  Or just some Stalin stan
- They definitely can. It's been off putting lately that the left has a check list that I have to hit every mark on to not be seen as a right winger.
  There are leftist who are Christian. There are leftists who are against abortion, but understand that education and reproductive health (including allowing abortions) is an important and productive way to reduce abortions, instead of bans. There are leftists who are still traditional, holding morals and ethics that aren't fluid but also not rigid.
  No one is truly happy about their political choices. Except for the insane 1/3 of Americans on the Maga train maybe.
- What left?
  
  The 1% of American politics who are ignored, Look for the pouty guy in the corner of a democratic campaign stop and you found him
  
  It's relative. Left of center is what most people mean when they say "the American Left" (ie, EVERYONE who doesn't consider themselves wing or neutral, from centrist dems to communists and anarchists). What YOU folks call "the Left", most Americans would call "the extreme Left". Not extreme as in your ideas are extremist, but as in you're just a tiny minority waaaay out there beyond what most people left of center believe.
- A lack of free and critical thinking is probably the reason the Right have such an easy time falling in line with whatever their figurehead happens to be peddling at the time.

The Left as a single monolith is the work of fiction.
- True. But it needs to be one to be an effective boogeyman in a speech like this.
- As is The Right?
  
  Authoritarians fall in line. Anarchists fall in love.

If the left were even a fraction as organized as claimed, Bernie would have blown the primary out in 2016 and ridden into the whitehouse with solid majorities in both houses.
It honestly roils me how impotent the left is, because an active organized left could grab this country by the balls and drag it into a whole new era, but all we have is a million headed hydra with each neck pulling in a different direction because nobody can get over themselves for long enough to fall in line behind a common objective.
- Yeah, a lot of the stuff that the "Left" fails on seems to be because it hits "well it's not exactly perfect and good for absolutely anybody do we're not gonna do it"
  Whereas the "Right" is basically 'well it came from my guy so... seems good'
  
  I think we’re also over-estimating the strength of the left in the US. I think a century of propaganda and witch hunts is still weighing on the prospects of anything overly pro-labor making it to the mainstream.
- They're poor that's why.
  Uneducated, low resources, no time, no money or means.
  
  Wealth has nothing to with it. A lot of them are middle 'class'
- Seriously the left would steam roll these yokals into oblivion
- The Democratic party is still controlled by the rich just like the GOP. Different rich people, possibly with better morals, but they're still protecting their financial interests even when it isn't beneficial to the progressive policies they claim to support. So it wasn't "the Left" that ended up letting Trump win and fucked us for generations with a corrupt SCOTUS but the rich donors controlling the Democratic party.
  
  Yeah because all those people that had zero turnout energy during the primary were actually paid off by the rich. That's why they didn't vote in the primary!
  Fuck right off with this DNC conspiracy bullshit. Progressives owe their cause turning out, you don't get to blame everyone else for not doing the revolution for you while you're sitting on the couch instead of doing the literal barest minimum to actually materially support what you claim you believe in.
  Fuck your words. Give the cause your actions, or can your empty platitudes about how it's everyone else's fault your side refused to vote.

There's no division like leftist unity
- Still, makes us generally immune to a charismatic con man taking over the entire party.
- Yeah, I once got interested like a bored person with a special interest in 70s sci-fi, Asimov, Star Wars, Wiener's "Cybernetics", all those aesthetics. Because leftist ideologies are kinda associated with them.
  You come to trots, they seem fine and tolerant (they even consider tolerance and humanism as their main difference from stalinists), until you mention anarcho-syndicalism as something normal or ask questions (in the spirit of normal brainstorm) about the ideal society they describe in their articles. Here they either become hostile or ghost you.
  Cause it's their (trots) fucking religion that every cook can guide a state, that a military of a trot state looks like every adult having a gun at home, and in case of war them all assembling, making a shot each and going home (quoting that Swiss joke).
  And that their direct democracy and planning system too should not be really designed. Some "modern technologies" will do that.
  They are just not interested in discussing how to actually build that shit. Only in the daily activity of a couple of obscure trade unions and in hating "the rich" or/and "the bourgeoisie".
  You come to ansyns, they react like "you're already one of us if you want, now get off us, we're not interested in that shit".
  You come to ancoms, admittedly some conversations are interesting, but talking specifics with them is like Napoleon going into Russia - the conversation seems to be going on, but you're increasingly feeling that you're getting lost without gaining anything.
  You come to stalinists, they tell you your opinions will be considered when they kill everyone they don't like.
  You come to usual left anarchists and may get a good conversation occasionally, but in the end realize that they are mostly interested in their hydroponic farms.
  YMMV, but I don't see much consolidation.

Every time a right wing pundit talks about the left wing hive mind it's a clear tell that they have no understanding of their political rivals at all..
- "The united front tactic is simply an initiative whereby the communists propose to join with all workers belonging to other parties and groups and all unaligned workers in a common struggle to defend the immediate, basic interests of the working class against the bourgeoisie." - 4th World Congress of the Communist International
  Basically the thing Trump does where he hears some antiquated information and then his brain re-interprets it into a pre-school level understanding.
  
  Ah yes “please for the love of shit stop fighting each other and fight the people we all agree are the problem instead” “see the left has always been unified”
- I think by "left" he means very slightly less right.

That sounds like something somebody would say if they knew absolutely nothing about the Left (or were just trying to scare/motivate their own base). The Left are ok-ish at organizing when they’re motivated enough, but they can barely agree on anything and will find any excuse to get into a fight with each other. You’ve got people on the Left willing to virtue-signal about Israel, vote third party and lose the presidency to Trump, a candidate who would make things demonstrably worse for Palestinians and would likely increase aid to Israel and remove any lukewarm constraints that the current administration is limp-wristidly raising. Meanwhile, Republicans will overlook any of the hundreds of things wrong with their candidate and compromise any values they’ve had, just to elect the biggest shit stain in history because they know he’ll make the other side feel bad.
- (or were just trying to scare/motivate their own base)
  DingDingDing we have a WINNER!

Yeah, I guess we do have one common goal, make life better for everyone?
- No, it's make everyone's quality of life better! /j
  
  Look, look... both of you make excellent points but I think the real important common goal is a better life for everyone and I will fistfight both of you until we all agree or some fascist assnugget comes by and makes us forget our pedantry.
  
  If this was a joke, I love the joke
- Honestly I expect life to get worse for 0.1% of people.
- Somewhere...a gaggle of dickless, peaked-in-highschool, douchenozzles wearing underarmor fReEdOm tshirts popped a blood vessel in their eye from getting so enraged that someone suggested minorities get closer to the number of rights and freedoms they have.

Funnily enough, many online leftists think something similar is true for the right.
- The right may not have great organization, but they have an astounding ability to put their blinders on for the Ten Minutes' Hate when it's called for. The right's problem is that when they smell blood in the water, THEN the unity falls apart. It's power games for them.
  Parts of the left, or what passes for it in this country, would prefer martyrdom to cooperating with heretics.
  
  This is because "the left" tries to unite groups that ultimately are at odds with each other. Anarchists of all types work very well with each other usually, but not with Auth left because they have bad praxis and care about being in control of the movement. Likewise it's difficult to align with social democrats who think electoralism and reformism is a solution and stifle direct action.
  Likewise Auth left and social democrats tend to infight, even within themselves, because their hierarchical praxis causes power play friction.
- I'm not particularly far left compared to the Lemmy Lunatics, but I suspect that is far more true for the right than it is for the left.
  I've seen people go from "are all these COVID precautions necessary?", and tumble down a rabbit-hole to "we need to kick the foreigners out, Trump is the best choice for the US, and Russia is entitled to Ukraine" in a matter of months.
  They're very good at keeping people on message. They grab people on one issue and make them go all-in.
  
  The liberal to fascist pipeline is a thing ofc, but it doesn't represent unity of action.

If that were true, Trump would have never had a chance to become president in the first place.

Organized left = isn't part of the cult

Meanwhile there are 3 fractions for each 2 left wing people.

I'd say fuckers problem isn't that we are organized but maybe; we're not a bunch of rock sucker's mixed in with a bag'o'rascists.
- Is "rock" a typo? Don't get me wrong not cursing is cool too, just curious.
  
  I assumed it was slang for crack cocaine users.
  
  I support this new saying. What's wrong with people literally fitting the original label? I think we generally appreciate those people, right?

As usual this isn't something to be taken as an observation of reality, but an attempt to create a reality for conservatives to be afraid of...
It's "the big bad left" all organized like an army ready to steamroll your beautiful conservative values! Of course it has no bearing in reality, but that's not the point. The point as always with them is "be afraid of the left!!"
- Can't have a conspiracy theory if you see your so-called oppressors as atomized, alienated, confused, and largely helpless.
  But then the trick fascists always pull is to describe their enemy as simultaneously weak and strong, brilliant and foolish, hyper-surveillant and utterly blind.

Well, I think that there's actually something to this. I've been involved in a lot of organizing spaces, and there's this "our backs are all up against a wall so we have to work towards a common goal of achieving a workers state and not dying due to climate change" vibe going around lately.

You’re just saying that because of the time the communists took a break from a revolution against monarchists to shoot at other communists. Or because of the other time they did that

That's a lot of words to say "absolutely not dysfunctional"

Wtf dude 😆

I think this just generally highlights the importance of opening a book and reading. There have been centuries of Leftist thought, questions have been raised and they have been answered. Many considering themselves "left" can sympathize with Leftist goals, or even jab at the sources of modern struggles structurally, but lack the organizational and practical knowledge obtained from Theory and applying theory to practice.
The more you read, the more you realize how little you actually know.
- What books specifically would you recommend?
  
  To me, the most influential contribution in the last few decades would be "Capitalist realism: is there any alternative?"
  Its very heavily influenced by Marx but it's more like a philosophical intervention where I would see das kapital as more of a historical intervention. As in "erm no, this is the story of how we got here" (das kapital). Although, there's plenty of philosophy of course. Its only about 5 pages long and there's free readings of it on YouTube.
  Although, imo, the real origin story of capitalism covered in das kapital, on a national scale, is something everyone should be much more aware of.
  
  What are you familiar with, what do you feel weak in? I'm a Marxist, so I can recommend some generally good introductory works, but if you have specific interests or pre-existing knowledge I can make specific recommendations.
  Otherwise, I will always recommend the famous Yellow Parenti Speech.

https://youtu.be/WboggjN_G-4#t=25s

I think this is what the right does, and does really well too. This is why an extremist minority can control the entire US even though the left in absolute numbers should be crushing them.
Organizing the left is like trying to herd cats. Good luck with that.
This is also the good thing about the left, people think for themselves and because of that, have all these differing opinions

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA why is everything they say pure projection? The left is a mishmosh of 1000 different pet causes with little to no leadership and the DNC has the strategic computing power of a tiger handheld. The right are the ones that can come together and tow the party line. It's just Trump that has made everything a bit more chaotic and given the left a clear target to unify against.
But look back to the Obama days and how solidly they blocked everything.

Handing my cat a bowl of vegan cat food as I read this.
- How dare you! You should only feed them food on plates, not in bowls!!!!
- Is "btw, my cat is vegan" going to be the new arch-meme?
  edit: is archmeme the proper word? Was arch nemesis never archnemesis? When is the hyphen appropriate? aaaaaaaah!

I wish we had complete solidarity

"Vote blue no matter who"
Sadly this is true, but it's more true and worse with the right.
I personally hate tucker, he is a scummy hypocrite puppet, and I personally hate the right and disagree with most of their selfish policies which often serve selective class, corporations or entities... but imo Tucker's statement was right here. If he wasn't, the US would have more than a two-party system. The DNC snupped Bernie in 2016, and pretty much forced him to endorse Hilary, the opponent who conspired against him and had vastly different stances on almost everything he campained for, and made him sell "vote blue no matter who" while conceding and pretending it's the same as voting for Hilary. If this was not true, he would've been able to fight and speak out.
With that being said, the right do the exact thing 10 times worse. Their main strategy is to oppose the left and block every proposed senate bill by them just because. The GOP is also full of senetors who opposed Trump then endorsed him and again it's all because of the two-party bullshit

I agree with Tucker Charlatan on this one, at least in the USA the left voting populace are united on policy stances.
- Yeah there are a lot of slam dunks. Getting rid of citizens united, reinstating roe, universal healthcare. I don't know of anyone who would identify as left that are against those for sure. All the same I see a lot about how peoples voting decision should come down to one particular thing that is not any of those or they are like I dunno not realy progressive or left or like horrible monsters or just not good people or such.
  
  Yeah, exactly, people even say stuff to dissuade leftists from voting like "Biden is responsible for the Gaza Genocide" as if that were even a issue when running against Single State Solution Trump. Those people aren't really left by definition if they're either directly or inadvertently supporting a literal theocratic fascist, they're right by definition.
  So I would say the left has unity, but it also has fakes trying to sow dissent.

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