r/The_Donald now on Lemmy (edit: not anymore)

Historically this group has been responsible for an absolute shitload of spam and outright attacks.

I was doxxed by them. They had links to a discord group that included my full name, address, email, and phone number. There was a whole list, it's one of the first reasons they were quarantined. There was a comment that read "anyone with spare bullets can send them here".

This is a lot more than "I simply don't agree with that community". They are trash who will trash up any platform they can reach.

Defederation should be a last resort against spammers and outright attacks on other instances, not because you dont agree with a single community.

100% agree

Also, it should be noted that this 'The_Donald' community is literally just one user making posts.

It could be extra moderation work, but I think it's a bad line to cross to assume everyone on an instance is guilty before they've actually done something bad.

Bad comments can come from anywhere though and mods still have to remove them.

You've got a good point. Ultimately every instance is responsible for its users and their behavior. Harassment should not be tolerated.

SIJW needs to make a decision. IMHO it's perfectly fine to say that your instance is not prepared to deal with that kind of shit regardless of how open and accommodating you want to be.

If they believe there's a space for "moderate trump supporters" that's their decision but they are on the hook for any harassment caused by their users.

Yes! Hold the instance owners accountable for allowing that shit to fester and be rebroadcast.

Nine people dining at a table with a Nazi means you have ten Nazis.

the users in that community is one person

So, from what I've gathered, many consider the broad lesson learnt from various defederation dramas over on mastodon is that making a genuine attempt to voice concern with the instance admins prior to defederation is almost always the better way to go. It avoids drama and inconvenience while promoting a better ecosystem of cooperation between instance admins and their users.

Obviously at some point when there aren't better options and users need to be protected, use defederation, that's what it's for.

But at this point, I'd try to talk or have our admins talk to the instance admin first.

I agree. It may help send a message that the community isn't tolerated, hopefully getting it removed.

Yeah I guess it does put pressure on instance admins to remove the offending community from their instance. I am just not sure if we want to cross that line into penalizing everybody on an instance for simply being near a bad community though. I also think doing this kind of proactive censorship also forces these people into deeper echo chambers as they get more and more isolated.

Unfortunately, users don't have the option to block entire instances. We need to rely on our moderating overlords to do it for us.

Thank you

Thank you for doing so. It is important that we keep what we have here and you doing that is a very important step to that.

Admin management of instances is important.

dedicate it to the worship of our disney duck overload, the real Donald.

A noble cause worth pursuing.

and dedicate it to the worship of our disney duck overload

I refuse to believe this was a typo.

Blocking open community creation is a mistake and that will be abused down the line. It's also taking power away from users to make Lemmy their own.

First off, community creation is not the problem here. Anybody can make a community called the Donald, the problem are the people that will fill it. Those people are coming here regardless of what community they find themselves in. Blocking community creation doesn't stop them, only actual monitoring of individual users will do it.

There really has to be a line here between combating this kind of toxic hateful bullshit and completely locking down a social media platform so that everything must be pre-scanned and approved before it sees the light of day. Pre-approving content means moderation controls the site directly and obliquely. Before users can even cast a vote, mods can unilaterally and silently strike it down.

I just generally don't care for the overall notion that Lemmy needs to be carefully curated like a garden right out of the gate. Ban the obvious shit like the Donald but there has to be a fundamental acknowledgment that the users, the people, need to have the ability to make the space their own without some council pre-judging them.

I think we can handle these things on a per case bases no? That is just adding another roadblock in having someone interact with the community. If it becomes a problem where someone spams these then yeah I can see the issue.

It's also not worth giving them attention to get started. While I mostly agree with the OP, I'd rather they just languish in obscurity for now. Come back to it if/when they become a problem.

No it's not that. Lots of us never interacted with that sub. Just block them no need to defederate a while instance

Dude, it is one community with a whopping 9 subscribers and every single post is sitting at negative.

Y'all need to calm down.

a better analogy is dropping the whole town the nazi bar is in

Yes, the vast universe of Lemmy is like a fucking bar lmao. Great analogy

As soon as they brake rules they absolutely should be banned.

Yeah, defederation isn't an answer to this, or if it is, it's an absolute last resort. First they have to do something wrong, then the instance should ban them, if they fail to act and the community is doing something wrong, then you talk about defederating.

Nah. Users need to ability to block entire instances. It's crazy this is overlooked.

Hm, is it possible the community was already kicked by the instance? I don't find it.

when i was a christian there was this story that would be told that went something like this:

"one day a kid was caught by their parent doing something they knew they weren't supposed to do. it was just a small thing with no real consequences, but it was against the rules of the house and therefore the kid was being disobedient. when the parent confronted the kid about the behavior the kid argued that it was harmless and that it was ok. the parent, seeing an opportunity to teach the kid a lesson, said 'ok' and left. several hours later the parent called the kid into the kitchen where they'd made brownies. the parent offered the kid a brownie who readily accepted. as the kid reached for a brownie the parent stopped them and said 'oh, but first you should know, theres a small piece of cat poop in there, but it's ok, it's just a small piece and i put it in that corner over there'. the kid reeled in disgust and said they didn't want the brownies anymore. 'why?' the parent inquired, 'it's just a small piece and won't hurt anyone as long as they stay away from that small corner'. the kid, then realized the importance of obedience in every way."

total bullshit story, but like all christian bullshit there's a kernel of truth in there. one small nazi ruins the whole batch of brownies.

FWIW, I certainly don't support that shit even though I made that instance my "home", not knowing that one guy's cesspool even existed there.
I chose that one because it's near me, hosted in a local datacenter, uses hydro power and has good performance.
I will be glad to let my voice be heard when we discuss and vote about this troll's fate in the Agora over there (which feels very much like the polar opposite of that troll's bullshit).
As far as I can tell it has no support from the instance's members.

I think our admin was busy upgrading to 0.18 while this was posted, hopefully this gets addressed soon and I'm prepared to move on from there if it isn't.

Having interacted with decent people there, I hope we'll sort this out.

it's really easy, I spun up my own instance in a morning. Ok, I am a sysadmin and programmer, but it really wasn't very difficult and didn't require much beyond creating a VPS and DNS entry along with basic abilities at the command line to use the ansible playbook.

its entirely overblown, the smallest band-aid in the the world is entirely appropriate for one user shitposting

It's more like saying that we shouldn't jump to amputation as the first step after diagnosis.

You're probably right that blocking a single community should probably be an option.

That said, if an instance is willing to allow hateful communities like TD, I expect their comment sections will be more toxic than other instances. I like the idea of defederating from instances that allow hateful communities.

this is already an option, as shitjustworks pointed out in the update post

I never knew that community existed since I don't read All (too spammy) nor do I search for alt-right topics. No idea how OP found it unless they were simply looking for shit to stir up.

Not arguing with that, but sounding an alarm about defederation when there are instant fixes to the issue is absurd.

Voat was about 50% fatpeoplehate, 35% T_D, and 15% 'free speech' enthusiasts. The 15% were quickly pushed out by the overwhelming amount of content generated by fatpeoplehate, but eventually they got tired of posting the same things over and over and only T_D was left.

Well said @catshit_dogfart@lemmy.ml.

This is a single user, not the ghost of The_Donald subreddit, who appears to be trolling. If that's the accepted bar for de-federation then lemmy.ml is going to quickly become a single instance federation.

If it's supporting some shitheel Republican's cult of personality and names itself after the most infamous online instance of the cult of that shitheel, it doesn't need to be given benefit of the doubt. If it's some wholesome uwu satire, then it can bear that fucking cross and negotiate being removed from blacklists.

A Hilldawg 2024 instance should be treated in just the same way, before some stupid American asks.

He's still a joke, just one that stopped being funny a long time ago.

No, he's still a joke. It's just America is a joke too.

“Any community that gets its laughs by pretending to be idiots will eventually be flooded by actual idiots who mistakenly believe that they’re in good company.”

see also: gamersriseup

Friggin hilarious that one

 undefined

    
This community exists solely to document Trumps crimes.

If you support tr*mp. If you were a member of reddit’s biggest hate community, then you will cry. You. Are. Not. Welcome. Here.

Fascism is a curse on this world.

This is a safe space for those who oppose conservatives scum.

support abortion rights.

support trans rights.

support women.

support minorities.

Destroy fascism. Destroy hate.


  

Amazing sidebar

I think that's the one I saw originally.

I was kinda hoping it would just be dedicated solely to Donald Duck but I guess this is also fine, haha

I was expecting a community about Donald Duck, but it is even better.

It would ruin the Fediverse because, if this post is any indication, it takes nothing but a user shouting 'Nazi!' to get people ready to accept de-federation. Most users who are commenting appear to not have looked into the issue or viewed the community before giving their opinion. They're more than willing to buy the 'Nazi bad, de-federate' argument with zero evidence.

If you look into the community that the OP is referring to... it is made up of a single user's posts and less than 30 comments across the entire community (most by the same user). None of the posts or comments in that community/by that user violates any rules on sh.itjust.works or kbin.

There is no there there, as they say. This is a 'The Boy Who Cried Wolf' tale. There's no wolf, there's no Nazi bar. One user created, one community and now we have a 200+ comment thread discussing de-federation. I cannot find any other word to describe the situation other than: kneejerk.

If the admins have a laissez faire approach, then they can go fuck themselves.

Note that, by laissez faire approach, I don't mean "do nothing at all"; that's incompetence, and incompetent admins go fuck themselves, as you said. For me, laissez faire means "keep a close watch on the situation, and intervene if necessary, but otherwise let the userbase handle it".

And in this case you got a rather engaged community, who's most likely prone to engage those Nazi, and tell them to fuck off. Is admin intervention necessary in this case?

I'm not sure if a laissez faire approach would be a good approach in this specific case, but it's generally a good "default" - often people managing communities cause more harm than good when they're trying to proactively solve issues that didn't appear yet.

The difference between a nuke and defederation (well, there are many, but the main one here) is that defederation can be undone.

That's a great point - the reversibility makes the option less drastic. Still annoying for legitimate users and admins of other instances.

Users aren't tied to communities, but instances.

What's the "more" when you defederate from problematic instances?

It's cowardice if you ban hate speech from your platform but don't moderate the content coming from other instances that aren't up to your standard. It's having your cake and eating it too.

It doesn't make sense that you don't trust your instance to moderate the content. Besides, isn't defederation public knowledge? So you can't just gaslight your instance's users willynilly, you'll be caught if you start defederating from pettiness.

Why should they get a platform? Why should they be allowed "to simply exist"? Because the Marketplace of Ideas will sort itself out and make sure the best ideas "flourish"? I regret to inform you that the real world doesn't work like the thought experiments of classical liberalism, and TD's namesake is ironically a great demonstration of that.

Reactionary spaces should be stamped out.

You have no room to talk, your instance bends over backwards to be a safe space for neoliberals who support unipolarity and the exploitation of the third world.

"But some users disavow the US, etc."

Yeah, but virtually all of them nonetheless parrot the State Department's talking points about its enemies. That token "both sides" bullshit only supports the status quo while undermining the possibility of a positive alternative.

I know, but eventually, the user posting that content should figure out- it's not going anywhere...

Unless- there are users actively subscribing to that community.

https://sh.itjust.works/ isn't just c/thedonald.

Reddit, wasn't just r/thedonald.

c/thedonald, is a SINGLE USER on an entire instance.

Defederating the entire instance, to block the content of a single user, ONLY HURTS the thousands of users on that server, who want to see content elsewhere, and ONLY HURTS the users elsewhere, who want to see content on THAT server.

Absolutely! Defederation is the prime weapon against these choad warriors.

Fuck fascists, and fuck any instance which would host them!

They might have a main community on patriots.win, that doesn't mean they wont try to spread their ideology into other social media. I don't think TD on sh.it.just.works will be successfull, but I hoped for a wider agreement here, that racism should not be activly shared. I can block them, I can move to another instance, but what i really want is to minimize the range of this and future extreme-right communities in the lemmyverse.

I think we have the amazing new tool of a federated space to build really nice communities. Why dont we use it? The admins of sh.itjust.works have the choice. If they are in favor of nazis, we better not wait longer until they are even bigger and more difficult to defederate.

Defederation may be the only solution to the problem without changing the source code to allow for better administration tools.

Do note, posts from that community, will ONLY federate to your instance, if somebody is actively subscribed to it.

If nobody is subscribed to that community, then posts from that community WILL NOT flow to your instance.

True, and I thought of that as well, but I'll just have to take the chance that 1 of those 16 people is like you said because I don't want to have anything to do with the other 15

If you're on kbin hover over "more" below your comment, click activity and then look at "reduces" which are the downvotes. I'm unsure how to do it on lemmy though I will have to look.

Edit: same works on posts (all posts not just yours)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

We have to be intolerant of intolerance. The paradox of tolerance is a great read.

That's fine, but understand you don't speak for everyone. That's why individually blocking users and instances is the right move. Falling down the path of dictating what others get to see is tyranny. Users should have the option to block entire instances as well.

Blocking indivuals, communities, and instances is helpful for the individual, but it does not deal with the root of the problem. Allowing a space for bigotry to grow.

This isn't the same as people wanting to block your favorite hobby or something. I don't think it's a good thing to provide a space for bigots to share their ideas.