Logitech has an idea for a “forever mouse” that requires a subscription

.....I feel sorry for your girlfriend/wife.

G-hub also doesn't work on Linux, which is actually a massive advantage. I use Solaar with a couple of shell scripts and it's amazing. (edit) Actually it's a Python app, so it might even work on Windows.

I've also had to blacklist the HID++ kernel module because high-res scrolling on a loose, mushy ratcheting wheel is awful.

I started boycotting them when they started forcing a program to be downloaded, installed and run automatically on any pc running Windows 10 just by plugging a Logitech mouse/keyboard in to the USB port.

It installes through Windows Update, and is called Logitech Download Helper.

I am fine with Windows Update supplying and installing drivers, but using it to deploy program is scummy...

So now, I am on Xtrfy mice and Ducky keyboards.

G Hub doesn't work with my old trusty G11 keyboard either. Since it's both required for Logitech's newer peripherals and also requires uninstalling the old Logitech Gaming Software which would reduce the functionality of my keyboard, it effectively banishes any future consideration for Logitech's peripherals.

It's basically moot since I run Linux now, but I don't fancy the quality of Logitech's products either these days. It's a shame since their stuff used to be really solid. My X540 speakers are as old as my keyboard (16 years) and also refuse to die.

Oh man I was hoping this would be a sub for alternatives to subscriptions, rather than just pointing out that everything is going to a subscription model.

My Halo account name is fuckmandatorysignins@personalDomain.com

Fuck you Microsoft, fuck you Logitech, if the Internet goes down, I'm fucked...

Oh neat, I think I might subscribe to that community.

Wait a goddamned minute

A mouse is not a complex device. African countries can produce computer mice. I mean, using USB requires paying for the license and circuitry for the USB controller, which is why I hate USB for simple periphery, older interfaces solve the problem better. Anyways, they can produce USB mice too. They can even easier produce PS/2 mice.

You would be paying for the privilege of using a Logitech mouse of course!

The company has to grow indefinitely and you my friendly consumer are the back on which they will walk to do so.

Don't worry I'm sure they'll never acquire smaller and successful manufacturers that risk undermining their profit structures.

You've had more luck than us. My wife went through two Logitech G305s in like 2 years, so I switched her to a Razor DeathAddr and she's been much happier.

At work, I use macOS so I went with MX Master 3 and had constant issues with the thumb button not working. It's better now (I guess their SW improved?), and ironically I had far fewer issues with my Triathlon (when I WFH), which is much cheaper.

On my personal devices (Linux), I use Microsoft Intellimouse Pro. It has been solid for over 5 years. I plugged it in and it just works. The only thing remarkable about it is how little I think about it, it clicks, scrolls, and reads input consistently. If Logitech could do that, I'd probably buy more of their stuff, but I've mostly had issues.

There's already plenty of open source alternatives. Mouse drivers are relatively simple.

I think cleanable is more important.

I had a Razer Diamondback for like 20 years, and let me tell you, the insides of that were not a pretty sight when I took it apart to work out why the mouse wheel was glitchy. Two decades of crumbs and pubes and assorted hand gunk.

Plus the rubber tends to get a bit tacky after a while, and I'm not sure of a good way to clean that.

I think ten years is a decent lifespan for something I use all the time like that. More is a bonus, but I'm happy to replace after that time.

That was specifically one of the goals talked about in the actual interview and the CEO spent a lot more time on that than the topic in the headline.

Having subscriptions for hardware

actually how i understand that model, the subscription would not be for the "hardware" (which you would still have to 'buy' and pay for all of its repairs by yourself) but only for the software which would actually block you from using your own hardware if you stop paying the then-later-by-them-to-be-definded-price for the 'licence' to use that software, rendering the hardware a useless piece of junkscrap whenever and as long as they whish or their cloud runs on MShitsoft or is maybe ClownStricken, MacAfff'ed, CEO'ed, CTO'ed, Shareholder'ed or such).

That f*up-idea is afaik explicitly NOT a renting model for hardware where they'ld had to make sure that it actually works before you have to pay the rent, but only a licensing software for that only software that is vendor-locked-in on that vendor-poisoned hardware.

As i know myself, i guess i'll discontinue to buy or suggest any of their stuff for a few decades from now, for that "idea" only.

Have a nice(r) day without logitech!

I agree. We collectively overconsume, where are the manufacturers with pride in building quality devices that just work?

I'm a hardware engineer, I'd be embarrassed to release some of the shit I've seen onto the market for public consumption.

The rules are simple: solid state where you can, robust enclosures that can withstand common cleaners & IV exposure, geometry that makes it difficult for those cleaning fluids to get into the electronics. That's it, you've got most people covered with a reliable device to interact with daily. Pinch pennies on the RGB LEDs, not the housing!

But the thing that shocked me was that the average spend on that globally is $26, which is really so low.

Yeah because it's a mouse. What extra features is it going to have if I paid $100.

I’m kind of surprised they haven’t decided to do what MS does with controller, or smart watch manufacturers do with watch bands. Create unique collectible colors, have a design lab, etc. Let people treat mice like sunglasses. A fashion accessory that you occasionally change or augment for aesthetic reasons.

I don’t need a new mouse ever year, but I might be down to change it’s shell.

Except their mice are built better and last longer than any of the popular gaming brands. I've owned 4 logitech nice in my life and that would be every mouse I've owned since 1995 and only one of those actually died. People complain about their razer mice lasting 3 years and then go out and buy another one as if that's normal meanwhile you can easily get 5+ years out of a logitech mouse.

Endless meetings all focused around creating value for shareholders at any expense

Capitalism

That's just it - his brain is in a state of decay.

They're putting fentanyl in the cocaine now.

I think she's a her in this case.

I actually know how to do this off the top of my head and you don't need to write a driver for it, you could simply use an Arduino Micro.

The Micro (and other Arduino-compatible Atmel ATMEGA 32u4-based microcontrollers) have native USB support so they have a library you can import that will work with generic USB keyboard/mouse drivers. It would be up to you to rig up the sensors and buttons, make a case and write a little firmware.

Tiling window managers and vim keybindings are your friends

I do this as much as I can already, but certain tasks have no hotkey in aware of :/

Gonna be trapped in a VM forever when my mouse dies.

Then they'll make you get a keyboard subscription...

I use their G Hub to remap my mouse buttons and sometimes my config just gets ignored and I increase mouse sensibility instead of pausing the music

I used to swear by their K350 keyboard unified with their mouse, so much so that I bought the exact same models at work. After 10+ years and key prints rubbing off one of them started to get choppy...and around the same time the other did as well. Since they don't make them anymore and are pure Bluetooth with connections I had to find a refurbed one on Amazon. And even that one got questionable after a few months.

Here's my rule of thumb:

• if it connects to the internet, it should receive security updates
• if it doesn't need to connect to the internet, it shouldn't, and it doesn't need updates

Mice are firmly in the second category. In fact, I think cars are in the second, and any features that need internet access should go through my phone.

The problem is ALL of the other subscription services available now are thriving even with all the massive price hikes this just invited companies like this to jump on the bandwagon. It's ridiculous how nearly everything has some kind of subscription service...

As a Linux user, I don't even know what features their software has, nor do I particularly care. If it points and clicks, I'm happy.

What I want from Logitech is to make mice that point and click more reliably, and ideally make them repairable. I hate throwing out mice just because of a double-click issue when I could just replace a sensor or something.

Here's my proposal:

1. make a handful of base models with varying core features (wireless, low-latency, lots of inputs)
2. sell parts like shells, sensors, PCBs, etc that customers can replace on their own - no need to replace a mouse because you don't like the feel, just get a new chassis
3. there is no step 3

It really feels like they developed a revenue stream prior to developing a product.

That's what everyone big and well bribed in with regulators and such does today.

This is obviously true.

Not that a commercial company shouldn't do that.

It's just - what exactly are they going to sell? What need are they going to fulfill, what bottleneck are they going to widen, what river cross with a bridge? For customers, of course.

That's exactly the point I don't get. Every single mouse I owned, I've replaced it because something physically broke. My previous mouse (Logi btw) was replaced because the scroll wheel and middle click stopped working, no software or firmware update would amend that!

some of their higher end mice let you call specific functions of popular productivity software, like using the scroll wheel to change the brush size in Photoshop for example

(and, be honest, how many people in the history of the world have ever had a mouse break due to a software problem?)

Many moons ago, in the dark ages of Windows Vista, I had a laptop where the trackpad stopped working permanently after a specific Windows Update.

Custom keyboards took off because of mechanical switches. Back in the day people wanted mechanical switches because they last longer than membrane ones, and so you wound up with a bunch of companies producing relatively easy to manufacture mechanical switches. Those switches all felt and sounded a little different so you got people who wanted a specific feel and sound and it grew from there.

There hasn't really been the same push with mice because even really cheap ones work really well. Optical sensors are way harder to produce than key switches, and while there are a few different ones on the market other than dpi and polling rate they kind of all act the same - it kind of either tracks right or it doesn't. There's no differentiation unlike switches that are "tactile" or "linear" or "scratchy". And because of size restrictions you can't really have the same kind of switches as keyboards use for the buttons. And unlike the really niche keyboard people who do their own PCB and machine their own case, making a good mouse on your own from scratch is way more difficult. They're weird shaped and it's much more difficult to change things like optical tracking algorithms compared to macros on a 40% keyboard. You can do a run of 100 super niche keyboards and make it work, but just the injection molds for one mouse mean you need to make 10000, which stops it being a project and makes it a business.

There are premium mice manufacturers, but in general they either are going super light, super ergonomic, or super functional - and honestly they have a hard time competing with a company like Logitech that can produce really similar features for a fraction of the cost and have a decent reputation to boot.

It's trackball that are premium in fact

This concept should be expanded to every industry to show the idea itself is unscrupulous.

When subscription services is shown it should alert consumers to predatory practices

But the Ploopy mouse already exists.

My issue is double-clicking. I would like it to be much easier to replace switches.

mice

I have 15 year old Logitech mice and kids. They were the reference brand. I recently bought a pebble mouse, because of the dual connectivity. It’s crap

As long as it's not that god awful ThinkPad mouse that every corporation seems to give people.

Right? If it was a g604 I might be tempted...

The switches eventually fail, but most mice use the same Omron switches and they are easy enough to replace if you know how to solder. The teflon skates wear out too, but you can find replacement for most name brand mice online.

I've had buttons stop working. The mechanism inside that registers the click is a mechanical switch and they eventually die

I had the wheel button stop working on it once, it was still usable, just annoying, when I needed to do a middle click.

Also that happened after a decade of use.

Or when their old mouse is grody

That's planned obsolescence. They cover the mouse in soft touch plastic that turns to glue in 5 years. It ensures that you buy a new mouse every 5 years while claiming they are reliable.

I read that acetone transforms the gluely soft touch coating to hard plastic. I did it to my old Logitech when it got grody and it is still not grody after 20 years.

By "forever" they mean you will be paying them forever for the privilege of using the mouse. Unless you break it that is, or they feel like they no longer want to support it at which point it will likely become a forever brick.

Ask a razer user if their mouse/keyboard last forever.

Yes, mice are forever mice. That’s the problem, it’s just a one time sell.

I can vouch for that. For me it's the scroll wheel.

I've been through a Logitech G703 and a Corsair Sabre Pro and both failed the same way. I've also seen it happen to a Razer Deathadder Essential. The shitty mechanical encoder goes janky after a few months and basically makes scrolling unusable, as scrolling the mouse wheel either doesn't get detected or is interpreted as going the opposite direction. Yeah they can be 'fixed' by either blasting air into it which sometimes works for a bit or worst case, soldering on a replacement encoder, but even that's just a temporary fix as it's only a matter of time before that fails too. I can't deal with unreliability like that.

Older mice more commonly used to use optical encoders which tend to last much longer but finding a new mouse with an optical encoder isn't as easy. I finally broke down and got a Zowie the other day which should hold up a bit better in theory and only time will tell. I feel silly spending so much on a mouse, but I just want one that works.

It’s so much bullshit and it’s getting shittier.

Unclear if you're talking about technology, or life.

I don't understand what you all are doing with your mice. I've had mine for years, and the one before it, years. I only changed because I wanted to upgrade, too.

Meanwhile I'm always on Discord with my buddy complaining that his mouse broke, again. This mf fingers must weigh a fk ton bruh.

I miss when they had good hardware for a reasonable price. Some of my cheap original Logitech laser mice are still going, almost 2 decades later. Obviously not super heavy use as the switches have not worn out, but they've been shifted about the house as other mice break. So certainly not 0 use either.

The tasks have been things like our old media centre mouse died, the old Logi mouse "temporarily" replaced it until we replaced the media centre. It's not been unused any longer than a few months at a time.

We tried buying some recently but the new ones are all optical so they had shit performance and died after maybe 3 months of light use.

You have several 'backup' organs, just saying.

To be fair... I read the whole interview a few days ago, she was kind of pushed into this statement. The idea from the CEO was presented as a high-end luxury mouse that you'd treat like a fancy watch you could just repair and never need to replace. The closest we got to Logitech saying this was the interviewer asking if they could ever see a subscription being attached to the mouse and the CEO saying 'possibly' and then implying that it could be something like a maintenance/repair contract so that you would never have to worry about your mouse.

This whole ordeal was mostly just poor form in interviewing where the interviewer pushed the interviewee into a statement that they knew would be good clickbait.

Well… they don’t think about you at all except for wanting to squeeze money out of you. If that takes literally squeezing you in a hydraulic press they’d do it as long as the penalty was financial (not jail time for the CEO) but also that the penalty cost was less than the profit they got from murdering you.

This is how every company is now, every billionaire. It sounds like an extreme thought, yes, but .. the absolute ultimate greed is also extreme 🤷‍♂️

Unless it were like $0.20 a month which is equivalent to buying a $25 every ten years, there's no point.

But they will probably try and charge something stupid like $5 a month or $10 a month for their supreme collectors edition package.

I went down a rabbit hole when my mouse started double clicking wanting to know why, especially compared to older mice that seem to last forever. turns out the switches themselves technically haven't changed or even dropped in quality much over the years, they've always used the same shit-tier switches. many modern mice use too low of a voltage and operate out of spec, and the otherwise good enough switches don't hold up. here's an hour+ long youtube video about it if you want all the details.

it's bullshit that it's necessary, but if you're willing to solder in new switches you can get better quality ones that will outlast the rest of the mouse for ~$5-10.

I just wish I could find another mouse with the same form factor as the G602/604. That button layout on the side is so nice. I go looking for an alternative every now and then but nothing I've found matches it so I'm stuck. I'm on my third 602 and fortunately it seems to be the charm because I've had this one for several years and it's still going strong but it's certainly annoying that I had to RMA 2 of them to get a lasting one. I also had to do the same with 2 of their headsets. They didn't even have me send the mouse back last time so I have a second one with a double click problem laying around here somewhere I might see about swapping the switch out one of these days. and yea, the software does suck.