The Framework Laptop 13 is about to become one of the world’s first RISC-V laptops
The Framework Laptop 13 is about to become one of the world’s first RISC-V laptops
Love this. I don’t know much about risc-v but I’d love to see it disrupt the market a bit.
Sadly this is just a dev kit. It has soldered memory and only works with emmc storage
This board has the StarFive JH7110 SoC. That processor has previously been in very low power single board computers like StarFive VisionFive 2 (2022) and Milk-V Mars (2023), a Raspberry Pi clone that can be bought for as low as $40. Its storage limitations (SD/eMMC rather than NVMe) show how much this isn't meant for laptop use.
Very underpowered for a laptop too, even when considering this is intended for developers and doesn't need to be remotely performance competitive. Consider that this has just 4 RV64GC cores, the cheapest Intel board options Framework offers are 12 cores (4P+8E), and any modern RISC-V core is far simpler with less area than even an Intel E core. These cores also lack the RISC-V vector instructions extension.
Pine64 also has the Star64 as will, in 4GB and 8GB for $70 and $90 respectively. They're not exactly hard to find.
If I was developing for RISC-V, I'd buy one of those SBCs, not a Framework laptop. But it's cool that it exists, I suppose.
Indeed I bought a Banana Pi BPI-F3 with SpacemiT K1 8 core RISC-V chip,4G RAM and 16G eMMC https://www.banana-pi.org/en/banana-pi-sbcs/175.html for €95.89 including delivery. The form factor is nice though and I do enjoy Framework mission and partnerships. Depends what people need it for, good to have more options than aren't "just" SBC/devboards. I won't buy one now but I'll definitely keep it in mind.
I bought a Milk-V Mars (4GB version) last year. Pi-like form factor and price seemed like an easy pick for dipping my toes into RISC-V development, and I paid US$49 plus shipping at the time. There's an 8GB version too but that was out of stock when I ordered.
If I wanted to spend more I'd personally prefer to put that budget toward a higher core system (for faster compile times) before any laptop parts, as either HDMI+USB or VNC would be plenty sufficient even if I did need to work on GUI things.
Other RISC-V laptops already are cheaper and with higher performance than this would be with Framework's shell+screen+battery, so I'm not sure what need this fills. If you intend to use the board in an alternate case without laptop parts you might as well buy an SBC instead.
This board also has soldered memory and uses MicroSD cards and eMMC for storage, both of which are limitations of the processor.
Ah, yeah, hard no from me dog. Can we get one of the new Snapdragons tho? Please?
Qualcomm and Broadcom are the two biggest reasons you don't own your devices any more. That is the last option anyone that cares about ownership should care about. You should expect an orphaned kernel just like all their other mobile garbage. Qualcomm is like the Satan of hardware manufacturers. The world would be a much better place if Qualcomm and Broadcom were not in it at all.
I work with SoC suppliers, including Qualcomm and can confirm; you need to sign an NDA to get a highly patched old orphaned kernel, often with drivers that are provided only as precompiled binaries, preventing you updating the kernel yourself.
If you want that source code, you need to also pay a lot of money yearly to be a Qualcomm partner and even then you still might not have access to the sources for all the binaries you use. Even when you do get the sources, don't expect them to be updated for new kernel compatibility; you've gotta do that yourself.
Many other manufacturers do this as well, but few are as bad. The environment is getting better, but it seems to be a feature that many large manufacturers feel they can live without.
Usually you can get the kernel source for Qualcomm at least, MediaTek tho...
This is a dev kit. This is not for normal people to use. RISC-V is not there yet, but this is a good first step.
That doesn't bother me too much.
With the CPU being that slow, I don't think you'll really need a proper SSD. (And the CPU doesn't have the required PCIe interfaces anyway).
They probably could've added socketed RAM, but based on the photo, the main board looks quite full and messy with random chips (likely needed to work around CPU limitations), so it probably wasn't a high priority.
I'm interested in the cooling requirements and battery life.
I'm not interested in ARM CPUs with all their weird proprietary stuff.
The mainboard looks cluttered due to the verbose silkscreening, it doesn’t actually look that complex compared to the other mainboards.
At the point you want to upgrade this chip swapping out the entire SOC including the RAM is likely a better option.
Could someone eli5 risc-v and why the fuss?
Edit: thanks for the replies. Searchingnfurther, this 15 min video is quite well made and told me more than I need to know (for now) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps0JFsyX2fU
RISC-V (pronounced risk five), is a Free open-source Instruction Set Architecture (ISA). Other well established ISA like x86, amd64 (Intel and AMD) and ARM, are proprietary and therefore, one must pay every expensive licenses to design and build a processor using these architectures. You don't need to pay a license to build a RISC-V processor, you only need to follow the specifications. That doesn't mean the CPU design is also free, no, they stay very much the closed property of the designer, but RISC-V represents non the less, a very big step towards more transparency and technology freedom.
RISC-V is like LEGO, where you can put together pieces to make whatever you want. Nobody can tell you what you can or can't make, you can be as creative as you want. Oh, and there's motors and stuff too.
ARM is like Hotwheels, there are lots of cars, but you can't make your own. You can get a bit creative making tracks, but that's about it.
AMD and Intel are like RC cars, they're really fun, but they use a lot of batteries and you can't really customize them. Oh, and they're expensive, so you only get one.
Each is cool, but with LEGO, you can do everything the others do, and more. Like LEGO, RISC-V can be slow to work with, especially if you don't have the pieces you want, but the more people that use it, the better it'll get and the more pieces you can get. And if you have a 3D printer, you can make your own pieces and share them with others.
Right now it's more like megablocks
"you" as in person with required skills, resources and access to a chip fabrication facility. For many others they can just buy something designed and produced by others, or play around a bit on FPGAs.
We will also see how much variation with RISC-V will actually happen, because if every processor is a unique piece of engineering, it is really hard to write software, that works on every one.
Even with ARM there are arguable too many designs out there, which currently take a lot of effort to integrate.
This is a great answer.
ARM is like Hotwheels, there are lots of cars, but you can’t make your own.
That's not entirely true. There are companies that have the ARM achitecture license, like Apple or Cavium (now bought by Marvell). They are allowed to make their own hotwheels using the spring system or the wheels or whatever.
Not an eli5 because I'm still not caught up on it but if my memory serves, RISC-V is an open source architecture for processors, basically like amd64 or arm64, actually I'm pretty sure ARM's chips are RISC derivatives.
Edit: correcting my comment, ARM makes RISC chips, not RISC-V
ARM and RISC-V are entirely different in that neither one is based on the other, but what they have in common is that they're both RISC (Reduced Instruction Set Computing) architectures. RISC is what makes ARM CPUs (in your phone, etc) so efficient and hopefully RISC-V will get there too.
x86 by comparison is Complex Instruction Set Computing, which allows for more performance in some cases, but isn't as efficient.
Managers at big companies: “No we will not buy any products that have ‘Risc’ in them…if someone gets hacked we’ll take all the blame!”
Now imagine we only had Windows and no one would create such thing because Windows and it's programs does not have support.
Great, I'd be glad if they would consider shipping to more countries as well with localized keyboards
I mean, they at least offer a blank + clear ANSI and blank + clear ISO keyboard options along side their 14 other keyboard formats.
arm first stood for acorn RISC machine
one of the world's first RISC-V laptops
RISC-V
💀 i know. do i have to attach my brain to my comments?
Any information on the GPU they are pairing with it?
Does anyone know if it's possible to use a regular AMD or Nvidia GPU with it?
The GPU inside the processor/soc has the following specifications:
I don't think you'll be able to use a separate/external GPU with it. Thunderbolt support is highly unlikely and that processor has only 1 or 2 PCIe lanes (depending how USB is connected), which is likely already used for WiFi.
The processor it's using is linked in the article: https://www.cnx-software.com/2022/08/29/starfive-jh7110-risc-v-processor-specifications/
It's a system-on-chip (SoC) design with an embedded GPU, the Imagination BXE-4-32, which appears to be designed mainly for smart TVs and set-top boxes.
The SoC itself only has two PCIe 2.0 lanes on separate interfaces so you can't use both for the same device, and one is shared with the USB 3.0 interface.
That's not even enough bandwidth to drive an entry-level notebook GPU from over a decade ago. Seriously: the GeForce GT 520M, launched January 2011, wants a full PCIe 2.0 x16 interface. Same with the Raedeon HD 6330M. You could probably get away with just 8 lanes if you had to, but not only one.
The other commenter wasn't kidding by saying you could get more power out of a Raspberry Pi 4. It's even mentioned in the article.
Seriously: the GeForce GT 520M, launched January 2011, wants a full PCIe 2.0 x16 interface. Same with the Raedeon HD 6330M. You could probably get away with just 8 lanes if you had to, but not only one.
Connecting a GPU with just one PCIe lane isn't the biggest problem. You'll just slow down data exchange between the CPU and GPU (mostly loading textures and vertex positions).
If your game mostly relies on shaders and renders lots of rather static stuff, you'll mostly just get longer loading times but FPS shouldn't suffer too much.
That's great but they need to fix their hinges first.
They did, almost immediately after it became a known issue.
They already have, and they offer optional ones that take more force to move.
There are 2 updated hinges they sell.
https://frame.work/products/display-hinge-kit?v=FRANFB0001
Unless you're talking about something else
Nope those were it. And it's still broken after getting replaced once. It's unfortunate, I wanted a better laptop, not a desktop in all but name.
They have, the hinges of my Framework 13 AMD model from September 2023 are completely fine.
Didn't they in the new models?
Just asking.
