ADHD @lemmy.world

1y ago

Do neurotypicals really not have to do this? I'm seriously asking.

Thank you Nome @NomedaBarbarian

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@NomedaBarbarian on Twitter:

Thinking about how I've been lied to as an #ADHD person about what habits are.

That apparently is not what neurotypical folks get to experience.

Habits are things that they do without thinking.

They don't have to decide to do them. They don't have to remember to do them. Things just happen, automatically, because they've done them enough for that system to engage and make them automatic.

That system...which I lack.

Every single time I have brushed my teeth, it's been an active choice. I've had to devote thought and attention to it. It's not a routine, it's not a habit, it's something that I know is good to do, and hopefully I can remember to do it.

Every single time I exercise, or floss, or pay my rent, or drink water, or say "bless you" when someone sneezes,

It's because I've had to actively and consciously engage the protocol.

It never gets easier.

Just more familiar.

It's part of my struggle with my weight--exercise never becomes a habit, and every single time I do it, it is exactly as hard as the first time. It takes exactly as much willpower & thought.

I got lied to about how it would just "turn into a habit". And blamed, when it didn't.

Drinking water isn't a habit. Feeding myself isn't a habit. Bathing isn't a habit.

I spend so much more energy, so much more time, so much more labor on just managing to maintain my fucking meat suit.

And now you want me to ALSO do taxes?

ON TIME?

334 comments

Uh... No. This suggests that NTs act like drones, without any thought. Like they're sitting on the sofa, then they just get up, wander to the bathroom, brush their teeth, then get into bed and think "wow how did I get here hahaha what a habit, eh?"
ADHD is many things but it ain't this.
- I think there's this myth of "the neurotypical"... It's a generic point on a scale that represents the most significant overlap, not any specific person. I genuinely believe no one is "neurotypical", rather some tend towards it and others further away. That's the spectrum. Plus some people might be closer to NT with some things but much further away with others.
  For example, I have a pretty good degree of focus, I remember things pretty well, but I struggle to organise my thoughts and can't bear to touch other people or certain textures. I'm sure everyone is a bit like this. Some people more so, some people less.
  And that isn't to minimise that there are people out there who really struggle to fit into the "best fit" of Neurotypical-aimed social design.
  So why the need to create a mythical group of "Neurotypical"? Is it a need to define ourselves in opposition? Is it to make ourselves feel more unique? Is it a perverse form of gatekeeping?
  The upshot is, that until we move towards realising that individuals have individual needs and requirements we aren't going to make substantial progress and describing (and prescribing) otherness only seeks to alienate folk that might otherwise help.
  People aren't neurotypical... Systems are. I think that's what I meant to say.
  
  It's just the ever-present need to feel unique. I feel like everyone goes through it.
  As we grow up we start to notice differences between ourselves and the average person. We rationalize this by assuming we're unique, when really we just spend a lot more time thinking about our own differences than we do thinking about other people's.
  The reason that sonder evokes such a strange feeling when it happens is because we're usually not fully aware of the complexity of the people around us to the same degree as our own. We just pile those around us together into the category of "normal" people, while at the same time dissecting our own features to find every irregularity.
  From there, we feel the need to explain the differences, usually gaining a sense of superiority, like the common "not like the other girls" sentiment, or we feel ostracized and seek to find like-minded communities to join, such as the neurodivergant groups in this case.
  I'm not saying this person isn't unusual in some significant way - I'm sure they are somehow - but this understanding of how habits work is pretty normal.
  
  You raise a good point. None of us have had a perfect childhood, nor is it possible to be both perfect and human. Every person is different, and everyone has different strengths and weaknesses.
  I think that more people need to be kinder to everyone. You never know what someone has gone through, or what they are going through. Almost everyone is struggling is one way or another. We are all human.
  It would be bloody fantastic if the bad stigmas stopped from both sides. Working together on this stuff is the only way to make it easier for us all.
- ACTIVATE DENTAL PROTOCOL
  
  ERROR: BED MODE ALREADY ACTIVE. UNABLE TO ACTIVATE DENTAL PROTOCOL.
- thank you. we really really need more of this. thank you.
- ND is the new introverted.
  Only introverts think deeply, get anxious, or enjoy academic pursuits. Do you have a counterexample? Oh, well that person just doesn't know they're an introvert, so the pattern still holds!
  Same with ND/NT. Nobody is neurotypical according to this definition because everyone has something they struggle with or are quirky about.
- I'm not neurotipical, but I'm pretty sure ADHD isn't in the mix of whatever I have. The situation you described occures to me on a regular basis
- Then how do you explain that one Talking Heads song?
  
  Not sure how meta your comment is supposed to be beyond "how did I get here?," but ironically, David Byrne is on the spectrum.
- For me it is this. When I was married he didn't understand when I would request reminders to go to the bathroom, shower, eat, do laundry. He laughed. He thought I had dementia.
  Nope just adhd with a swiss cheese memory.

Damn as a neurotypical person reading this it blows my mind. Yes, my habits are absolutely automatic, to the point I daydream through them. Am I just misunderstanding something or are you saying every adhd person struggles to form habits?
- Jesus, that's insane. Either I have 0 habits, or OP is right. Everything I do, I do "manually" , and have to put effort and thought into it.
  
  No wonder i am exhausted all the time...
- Thanks for speaking to the other side, because that’s so hard to believe. I don’t know about everyone with ADHD, but it definitely seems to be a common shared experience. The only habits I do completely without thinking are a) putting my seatbelt on in the car, and b) picking my phone up like 100 times a day. Anything bigger, even something like eating, is something I have to will myself to do.
  And when I’m trying to form a “habit,” like certain types of note taking or task planning at work, no matter how effective it is and how much I like it, I never manage to do it more than about 3 weeks before my brain just completely shuts off that pathway and it’s like I forget that process exists altogether.
  If I don’t put my meds on my nightstand AND have a reminder on my phone, I will forget them most of the time. Daily activity, takes almost no brain power, and it still doesn’t trigger in my head as something I need to do unless I physically see it.
  
  ugh, I constantly forget to eat. People would ask “how the hell can you FORGET to eat, for two days” and I’d be like. “three days… I think”.
  
  The more I hear about ADHD, the more I wonder if I have it. Is there something I should be doing?
  
  Oh shit the seatbelts are a great example, I'd maybe add that typing on a keyboard is another thing that feels habitual. Everywhere else the 3 month rule applies pretty well in terms of maybe picking them up and randomly immediately dropping.
  Can a neurotypical chime in and say whether seatbelts and typing are habits to them like brushing teeth?
  
  I never manage to do it more than about 3 weeks before my brain just completely shuts off that pathway and it’s like I forget that process exists altogether.
  This is me. How can you just "forget" something you've developed into a routine and done daily for a month? I do though. Shit.
  
  Agree, add in locking doors behind me when I go into a house lol, I do it in other people's places and feel bad when I lock someone out lol
  
  Oh! I remembered one more but can’t edit my comment: I use my parking brake every time I park my car and take it off when I start driving. I did manage to build that one into a habit a couple years after I started driving.
  So I guess it is possible for me to create habits, but they have to be small, specific, and have specific contexts they trigger in (like the car).
  
  There may be a difference between habits and muscle memory. Seatbelts and parking brakes would be the latter.
  
  The seatbelt is an active task for me, and sometimes even a chore. I hate it.
  
  Yeah, for thing like the seatbelt, it’s just part of the process of getting in the car, right?
  Whereas with the phone, it’s the dopamine chase that our brains don’t have the right machinery to override reliably.
  
  I wonder how we can make some of this other etuff like the seat belt thing. It is an intriguing point you make. Obviously seatbelt use for people alive today that are within a certain age range has been ingrained in the formative years so I wonder if that has something to do with it. I wonder if one day scientists figure out how to trick neurotypical brains into forming these kinds of memories (I dunno whether it is long term or short term), but I am out of my depth here. Pretty sure short term memories when the neural pathways for them are activated enough times, they eventually becomeong term memories and a part of working memory I guess? Like, I wonder how muscle memory ties into this. If an ADHD person successfully completes an action a certain amount of times, can it then be turned into a muscle memory thing? Surely it can, right? I need to do some research on this, but I'm not sure where to start..
- It's very common among autistic people and neurodivergent people in general, it's called executive dysfunction. Essentially your brain has trouble both making and initiating plans. Every time I brush my teeth I have to remember to do it (this is not automatic, all my toothbrush stuff is set up as a visual cue any time I'm near the sink), focus on my task as I go to the bathroom so I don't forget why I went there, remember to take my medicine first so that I don't have to swallow them after brushing my teeth, floss, and brush.
  The last two parts sound very simple (and they are, which is why this is so frustrating for many people), but sometimes I will stand in front of the bathroom sink for 5 or 10 minutes, knowing I need to brush my teeth, WANTING to brush my teeth, but it's like whatever 'go juice' neurotypical people have a limitless supply of is just limited for me. Finally after standing there and psyching myself up I can do it, but it does take legitimate effort to initiate the process even if I follow through on all the parts smoothly. I couldn't tell you exactly why this happens even though I can obviously recognize that it is happening, I kind of suspect it has to do with wonky sensory integration problems (common in ADHD and autistic people).
  
  Every time I brush my teeth I have to remember to do it (this is not automatic, all my toothbrush stuff is set up as a visual cue any time I'm near the sink), focus on my task as I go to the bathroom so I don't forget why I went there, remember to take my medicine first so that I don't have to swallow them after brushing my teeth, floss, and brush.
  HOW ARE YOU IN MY BRAIN
  
  I hate that feeling of knowing I need to do something and wanting to start, but actually doing it is like my body and mind are weighed down by concrete.
  
  Ah, that sounds familiar. I don't actively psyche myself up, but I'll distract myself and procrastinate on it for like half an hour. Which always feels silly, when that task only takes ten minutes or so.
  
  this is not automatic, all my toothbrush stuff is set up as a visual cue any time I'm near the sink
  I can't even do that. If I leave my toothbrush in the same place, it becomes part of the background and I don't really notice it.
  Brains are weird.
  
  It’s like sleep paralysis in a way - you are aware you need to do something (move / brush teeth), you want to do something or something bad’ll happen (panic / dirty teeth), you keep telling yourself to do it in your head (can’t breathe / disappoint everyone), but you just can’t make your body move.
  
  That's so interesting to see thus written out like this because you have described in words, what I experience on some level. Of course all of this neurodivergence we're speaking on exists on a kind of gradient, so none of our experiences are going to be 1:1, but this is fascinating because it is definitely close enough. For ex: I don't have my toothbrush out in plain sight as my SO likes to keep things neat, and we've been together so long I don't remember if it has always been that way, but I do know in the past I didn't brush a lot because I would forget and get to bed and not have the wherewithal to make myself get back up and do it, and also I am terrible and remembering to take scheduled medicines like antibiotics and allergy medicine, but if I put it in the same place with my toothbrush I can trick myself into remembering both.
- I’m not sure if it’s every ADHD person, but I have accidentally quit smoking.
  If you can accidentally quit a physically addictive habit, things like brushing your teeth don’t stand a chance.
  
  Bonus lifehack!
  
  This might actually explain how I dabbled with smoking so much as a teen but never picked up the habit.
- I was blown away when I first saw this meme. I had no idea habits were supposed to LITERALLY become automatic. When people would tell me “Do something every day until it becomes a habit” I thought they meant “Do something until you stop forgetting to do it” Not “do something until your body just takes over and autopilots through it and you never have to think about it again”. Now I really understand why productivity advice is so useless. They’re all designed to “hack a habit loop” and I have no habit loop.
  It actually kinda pissed me off when I learned what it’s like for neurotypical people. I felt like I’ve been unfairly misled and then judged for being misled.
  
  That is what it means though!
- Trust me, our minds are equally blown by how your brain works. Like, what ? It’s automatic ? How does that even work? For me, automatic is things like clenching my teeth or flinching at a certain type of sound, but I wouldn’t call that a habit. For me, a habit is something I can’t stop the impulse for, like smoking. All daily practical functions are intentional or not at all. Even “routines” are just forcing yourself through the checklist, it’s never automatic. You’re like fucking robots I swear.
  
  That gave me a good laugh. I guess I never thought of myself as fortunate in that way, fascinating. But hold on, I have another question now. What about playing musical instruments like learning guitar? Wouldn't that constitute a habit that becomes automatic after enough practice?
- I am not every ADHD person, but this could have been written by me. I had NO IDEA that you could have something be so ingrained that you don't think about it. Even if I develop a "routine" of doing something, it is NEVER automatic. I have to put mental effort, even if small, into every task or it won't get done.
  After reading this my definition of habit would be better termed routine. I develop a routine and I try to stick to it. Also I could have a great routine and it lasts for a month or so and then it's just, I don't know what else to call it but 'gone'. It's gone. That routine is gone.
  
  When I was in college, my GF went to a different one 100 miles away. Every Saturday, I'd get in the car and drive to her dorm, stay the night, then drive back Sunday afternoon.
  One weekend, she had something she had to do, so I didn't go. I decided to get some stuff from an art supply store half a dozen miles down the same freeway. I was about 25 or 30 miles away when I realized I had passed my exit and was just driving to my GF's out of habit. I didn't even remember the drive.
- I thought I was just lazy most of my life because I could never wrap my head around how people just do things without getting overwhelmed by 500 things in their head about it first lmfao. Showering is a good example, I'm sure most people find them relaxing and/or do them on autopilot but to me it feels like an elaborate process
  
  Showering is torturous to me and I don't know why. I think it is because I have to remember to do that, wash my hair, blow dry my hair, etc etc and it just feels like a time sink though I know it's necessary. Maybe the whole time the reason I hate it is because it is just another thing I HAVE to remember aka devote real energy into that.
- Very few things are true for every person with a given neurodivergence. But this is one of the more (most?) common things that people with ADHD struggle with, some to a lesser, some to a greater extent.
  
  As a neurotypical what I don't understand is, how did the OP get fat in the first place, if they lack habitual behaviour?
  They seem to be saying that every single time they ate junk food /fatty food, it would have been a conscious choice that they had to think about first.
  Or am I misunderstanding it?
- I realized when I was 20 that I can’t form habits. I’ve tried my whole life, but everything I do is an active choice, which makes it difficult to do anything at all long term. Things get boring and repetitive and after a while they aren’t interesting enough for me to get my executive functioning to do them anymore. Most things that I do daily, like brush my teeth, are actually things I do out of fear of the consequences of not doing them.
  When I worked as a CS rep and had to log into my phone every time I sat down, it was a conscious effort that required active management, every day, for four years. When I get up in the morning to take care of and feed my pets, it’s an active checklist, and while I have a routine of sorts, different parts get missed often, like turning on my coffee machine, opening windows to cool the house, or even turning lights on. I’ve been on a mission to automate as much as possible in my home because things like my fish die otherwise.
  The only time I’ve ever experienced auto-pilot has been while driving. And frankly, that scares the hell out of me because I lose time when that happens and have no idea if I did anything dangerous (I’m reasonably sure not because it’s happened often with others in the car, but the feeling is still there).
  
  As you might already know, the "autopilot mode" we go into when driving is a common meme among neurotypicals. And yes, it still scares the shit out of me sometimes when I get home and wonder how I didn't run anyone over since I was mentally checked out the whole time.
- Yes. That's exactly it. And as soon as you try to form a habit with no visible short-term results or gain, and some form of annoyance in its performance (I know of one person who hates how loud teeth brushing is), it is super-hard-mode.
- I can daydream through some actions, but it's rare, and I fuck up whatever I'm doing. This is because I'm splitting my attention and not actually following a habit.
  Starting any activity, including brushing my teeth, is always a conscious choice. I cannot "sleepwalk" into the bathroom to start my day.
  A story here. I was in a relationship years ago, every morning this person would wake up and slap the button on their alarm. If they woke up before the alarm, or if the alarm failed, they would still reach over and slap the button. It was a habit.
  I cannot develop habits like that. But I'm also not tripped up by habits. There's no "walk down the hall and automatically turn left".
  The only upside to my particular situation is that I've never been hyperactive. Attention deficit, but no hyperactivity. It allows me to have at least some discipline in my day. But that has to be planned out and actively adhered to. It's a constant struggle, but not as bad as some people I've known over the years.
- Maybe? Once I get started at something, I can zone out and not consciously think about it, but even getting ready for work, is a different adventure every day.
  Sometimes I jump up, get ready, and I leave early, and on the other 24 work days of the month, I'm distracted by the laundry that didn't get in the dryer, trying to find my keys, reading an article that's much longer than I thought, and my cats.
  I know what I need to do and I go through the checklist, but I wouldn't call any of it automatic.
- What would you consider a habit? I'm honestly very curious. I'm trying to think what things could be done with no thoughr. My brain just doesn't work that way.
  
  Well the common example here has been brushing your teeth. Shits pretty automatic for me as part of my morning/night routine, I just do it, usually while thinking about other stuff. Same with other things like getting dressed, showering, going to the gym, making a sandwich, eating.
- Wow. I honestly thought I was just lazy. Thank you for sharing. Everything other than sleep requires energy and effort. I wish I knew before I was in my 40s that I had ADHD!
- They're... Automatic? WTF.
- 😐
- The OP is just using some wildly different definition of habits than everyone uses. No one has a "habit of doing yearly taxes" lol.
- Conversely, I have been considered to be neurotypical all of my life, though I do have a lot of other issues (chronic illnesses) so I wouldn't rule out it being missed because of those ending up taking up all of the "bandwidth" so to speak - and I can think of very few daily habits that I have off the top of my head. Or, they're cloaked in a way that I don't "feel" they are habits, I'll try to explain that a bit better:
  Most things that I do, it almost feels like there's an explicit direct cause -> effect correlation as to why. I suck at remembering to brush my teeth. But showering? I do so because I hate when there is that feeling of my legs running against each other in bed and there's an almost sticky (?) like feeling.
  And I'm reminded of that feeling because unfortunately for me, laying in bed isn't only a thing I do during bedtime and occasional certain "activities with others" which is when they say is the only time of the day you should be in bed. I'll get the aforementioned feeling and go "I need to take a shower before I plan to actually sleep".
  Or sleeping doesn't tend to be a habit that I have in terms of going to bed at a specific time of day/night, I do so because I feel the amount of energy I have is too low for me to do anything more productive in the day (or to regain the energy by having say a meal). Exception of course is if I have an early appointment the next day that I know is going to require me to need some amount of rest for, and even then actually falling asleep is a struggle.
  Or speaking of meals, I don't stick with a explicit "three meals of day" plan - I usually skip breakfast and only have (maybe) lunch and dinner. I'll just have something to eat when I directly feel hunger and realize I haven't eaten in X amount of time. I'll have a couple of light snacks here and there to bridge the gap if I need to. This one though, I feel is more or less related to how my GI condition plays a part in my own internal risk vs reward scenario.
  I also don't necessarily feel what others/my friends might describe as an almost instinctive desire to check social media whenever I wake up - I run the Lemmy instance I'm on so of course I do check to make sure it's still running, and this morning in particular I didn't have anything else that needed immediate doing, and came across this post in "All".
  I use reminders on my phone to make sure I take my medications at an appropriate time since my sleep schedule is not consistent enough for me to just always take it when I wake up / before I go to sleep (I've been told that some of the ones I'm on work best if you take them at roighly a consistent time).
  I work from home and clock in on time because I'm always looking at the time when I know it's around the corner, but I still have alarms and calendar events set to nudge me as well however.
  I do my laundry when I go to take a shower and realize I have fewer choices of clean clothes to pick from, and set a reminder for the next day to do so. Similarly, I order more groceries when I have fewer choices of food to pick from (which thankfully doesn't involve running loud machines that will wake up others, so I can do that immediately rather than deferring it to the next day).
  I charge my phone and my watch when I get a notification that they're low on batteries, not as part of a going-to-bed-ritual (and this certainly has bitten me on plenty of occasions).
  I guess a better way to describe it all is that pretty much everything I do is "reactionary". I do everything as the need arises, nothing (well, off the top of my head) is really automatic in the same way I see from others. Most of the time I can tell you what prompted me to do something.
  I will say that I have what I (along with my psychiatrist and therapist) can only describe as "rolling chronic depression", but even when it affects me the least, this doesn't change.
- It’s really not as extreme as this guy implies. I guarantee you he has habits he’s not mentioning, it’s just that adhd have more of a tendency to forget them because we’ll get distracted by something else. I think about brushing my teeth, yes, but once I get started I day dream through it. I’m diagnosed ADHD and medicated.

Reminder that this, like many things associated with ADHD, is normal for neurotypical people, too.
It tends to be more common or more pervasive for people with ADHD, but it isn't exclusive to people with ADHD.
General tip: Whenever you see someone claim that a certain way of thinking is exclusive to people with ADHD, they're most likely wrong.
- I think the rubric is basically whether or not the behavior is disruptive to your life. Many neurotypical people do those things from time to time, but if it becomes overwhelming and pervasive, and keeps you from functioning effectively, it’s time for an evaluation.
  
  Would having off the charts procrastination on even the tiniest tasks that I absolutely know have to be done to the point of having to pay thousands for a dental problem I put off until i couldn't stand the pain count as disruptive to my life? Not sure why I asked this because I answered my own question damn. Glad I started therapy so I can get to the bottom of this.
- Agreed. 100%.
  Sometimes though, when we're frustrated and dumping that out, it sounds like we are saying that. It's very easy to 'us vs. them' the situation.
  Example: "Oh my god! Other people remember that they are boiling water for eggs? I have ADHD and I forget and leave the kitchen to do something else all the time. This suuuucks! It's not fair for us." I'm sure that there are some ADHD people who don't have to work with a technique just to cook eggs (I do. I set timers.), but there you have it.

I'm sorry... What?
For neurotypicals... Habits are automated processes? Brains have that function built in?
On some days, it feels like I have to breathe and blink manually.
- No, neurotypicals don't just automatically go exercise. Its a choice they make.
  
  Yep, and not just that either. It's like that all the time. Ha it's are just things you do without thinking, like reaching for your phone or wanting a smoke/drink/snack.
  Now, choosing to set aside a time of day and a routine for something, like exercise, can help ease the barrier to starting that thing. This is sometimes described as a habit, though it is not, psychologically speaking, a habit.
- No, neurotypical people have to think about actions before we take them. We aren't robots. I don't automatically get up from the couch, make dinner, and then eat it without thinking about it.
  We get distracted and forget things, too. I went to the coffee shop the other day and realized I left my wallet at home.
  My brother has extreme ADHD, and it's much harder for him to manage everyday things. He might hyper focus on something and forget to eat all day, etc, but we both have to consciously do tasks just the same.
- I was about to ask also shit blinking and breathing
  
  If you tell someone to breathe with you, and after inhaling and exhaling a couple times and just tell them that they are now breathing manually they actually just can't choose to switch back to automatic breathing, so they are stuck manually breathing till they divert their attention with out noticing, it's funny though
- I had to blink.
- I day dream so much I'm arguably not present

I fail to see how this is not the case for everyone.
Absolutely no one has a habit of paying taxes. Or brushing their teeth.
I would argue that what you have is depression here, not adhd. You need help.
- They weren't claiming that people had a habit for paying taxes in general but that because nothing else is a habit they lack the energy to do the things that other people already consider draining when they had to spend so much on things that come naturally and in a way for free to others.
  I would argue that brushing your teeth certainly seems to be habitual for most people. It's something they'd do if they went through the bathroom routine in the morning while effectively still asleep. This person is saying that if they don't effectively stand in the bathroom and look at the brush and decide "I will now brush my teeth." they won't do it, where someone else had grabbed the brush while thinking about what they need to get done later in the day.
  Depression on the other hand would more likely manifest in a disregard for the necessity of the activity. This person says they do brush their teeth, they want to brush their teeth and they are ready to spend their existing energy on it.
  A depressed person often would not be convinced that it matters, nor that they could even make themselves do it if they felt like they had to. Though naturally depression is expressed in many ways, as is any type of neurodivergence. It's hard to put strong labels on these things. Nonetheless it seems sensible to differentiate on these things as most neurodivergence is simply a set of untypical phenomena and behaviour that have collected up enough to start becoming notable.
  A person considered completely normal could suffer from the same but simply manage well enough for it to never stick out. No one is entirely normal.
- Yeah the "meat suit" comment makes me think some kind of dysmorphia or something , that's friggin weird man. Our meat suits are how we experience the universe and they profoundly impact our state of mind and being. To deny it demonstrates a very odd disconnect from reality.
  
  I think the OP was being dramatic for emphasis with the "meat suit" comment. That said, I'm guessing that you're younger than me or have few health complaints. Not casting shade, but it's not exactly uncommon for people as they age to start feeling a mind-body disconnect. For example, my mind says, "I can redo my own roof!!!" and my knees say, "hahahaha foolish hu-mon," (they're Ferengi knees) "we will randomly dislocate your kneecaps the moment you get up there and you fall to your death." I'm not saying I think I have a "meat suit" every day, but there are definitely stretches of weeks when my body is having a spell that I definitely feel that way.
- I actually do have a habit of brushing my teeth. It's part of my morning routine, which I do in the exact same order, every day. But, I'm autistic (I was diagnosed as a teen in the 80s). I'm one of those persons that has a very exact routine, and get really upset when my routine gets interrupted.
  But, I do agree with you that some of those symptoms seem more indicative of depression than ADHD.

You always are mentally and actively doing something otherwise you'd be unconscious. Habits just means the mental resistance becomes a lot lower. If you struggle to brush your teeth, it's a lot of effort to initially get you to go the bathroom. When it's a habit, there's usually a trigger that gets you to go to the bathroom without having to expend all that energy as much. Unconscious habits are automatic which are different.
- Yeah this. I don't automatically do things without thinking.
  I like to make a cup of coffee each morning. It's a habit. I don't really spend time thinking about whether I'm going to do it first thing each morning because it's so deeply ingrained - of course I will want to do that tomorrow when I wake up. I've performed this ritual so many times that I do know all the steps (although I do occasionally fuck it up).
  However, I'm not going through this process like an automaton free of thought - somewhere between the bed and the kitchen there's still a decision that I'm going to make a coffee. Some mornings I pee before coffee, some mornings it's after - there are decisions being made.
  
  The thing is I've been making a cup of coffee reliably every morning for more than a decade and I still need to spend time thinking about whether I'm going to do it.
  
  Yes but for "normal" non-ADHD people, usually the action in question becomes a routine that requires very little thinking energy. This isn't always the case with ADHD people. I have learned to adapt to certain things like brushing teeth, taking my allergy meds is a new one because allergy season in the south has gotten so bad, but the key factor, I think is that consistency is just about impossible. As someone up above posted, we will fall off a cliff and drop all of it, and who knows when we will pick it all back up again, because it is a constant mental strain. You don't have to think about walking and breathing, but sometimes ADHD people may as well have to when it comes to thinking about accomplishing things.
- I think with ADHD people things that end up taking very little thinking energy for non ADHD people, take the same amount of energy if not more, all the time, which is exhausting. I believe it is easy to take that for granted if you're not having to expend the energy constantly.

Yes, that's how habits work. They are mostly automatic.
No, that's not how brushing your teeth, flossing, taking the time to exercise or drinking water works as those are not habits at all.
PS: Drinking water might be the exception. You might be able to create a habit out of it... by taking the concious choice to always make some water readily available...
- Yeah, it feels strange to say something like "I have a habit of locking my door when I come inside, I don't even think about it, it is totally automatic for me" and then say "I don't have a habit of going to the gym because I have to consciously make effort to do it." Like yeah, no shit going to the gym "takes effort" that locking a door doesn't. That doesn't make one a habit and not a habit.
  There seems to be two usages of habit going on and they're being conflated. Something as big as exercising cannot become so automatic that you do it without thinking. That doesn't mean it isn't a "habit." Things as easy as buckling a seatbelt or locking a door can become automatic and thoughtless but that isn't the aspect that makes them habits.
  I find it hard to make these criticisms because I don't want to sound like I'm saying "just get over it" for dealing with ADHD. I have it too. There are tons of things that I'm jealous of neurotypical folks of for being able to do easily. I get the feeling of this post but I can't help but feel that they have totally misunderstood what people mean by habits. I also still feel like developing good habits might be easier for neurotypical folks, but the idea that they just do something as complex and involved as exercising totally on autopilot rather than deciding to go do it is off. It's easy to get into this self defeating mindset with ADHD of feeling like you can't do something. I don't want people to fall into that trap just because they misunderstand what people mean by the word habit.
  
  Yeah it seems like a lot of people are confusing routines with habits. It's definitely possible to get into a routine of going to the gym, eating a healthy breakfast, and then showering and brushing your teeth. None of those things are effortless, nor will they ever be.
- I have entirely forgotten glasses of water and plates of food for 6+ hours at a time that are directly next to me. The struggle is real.
- Thank you. I appreciate the politeness.

I think I can confidently say that I have habits. I am ADHD, and I have habits. Not good habits like brushing my teeth, or chores or anything...
No. My habits are either useless, or actively detrimental. Things like chewing my finger nails, or self-soothing behaviors like when I rub my feet together (drives my SO nuts). Stuff like that which I do subconsciously.
Everything else requires some measure of effort to get to doing.... Usually when I'm in the process of getting something done, it's far easier to see it through to conclusion, vs. Getting started....
Habits doesn't and shouldn't imply that the habits are good. Things I consider habitual now are a result of many years of doing the same things over and over in the same way with a consistent result...
- @MystikIncarnate @blueskiesoc but then, as you describe they are self-soothing - are they habits, or are they stims?
- So you're saying if you didn't have bad habits, you'd have no habits at all. I'll see myself out.

It's fine. Just always be present. 100% of the time. Always be aware of what you are doing, what you need to do, and what you are doing next. Don't forget to be thinking about what is happening today. Also, keep in mind what is happening next week.
Pretty sure I forgot to take my stomach pill today. The same pill I take every morning, for about 7 years.
Oops.
- I so relate to this. I listen to audiobooks or podcasts all the time because it keeps my brain partially occupied. Forgetting to take meds is a huge issue for me. I'm asthmatic and need to take an inhaler twice a day. I've been using an inhaler for 35 years and I still can't remember regulary. I'm broken.
  
  Podcasts and audiobooks are great for keeping the mind amused while doing representative tasks.
- And at the same time think about that time someone was mean to you 8 years ago
  
  Can't. I'm too busy planning projects that I will either start now or do later.

Neurotypical here, as far as I know.
No, there is nothing about brushing my teeth that's automatic. At some point during the evening I usually notice fuzzy-feeling teeth, or as I'm nodding off while reading my book will think "oh no, I never brushed my teeth..." There is always some small element of discipline to getting up and doing the thing. But I can usually remember without having to set an alarm or post a sticky note, if that meets your definition of "habit".
Exercise is brutal and IMO, that never gets easier, either. In contrast, I generally have an easier time with mental discipline & focus compared to physical tasks.
Strangely enough, as a (mostly) white Millennial woman, the majority of my peers now claim to have adult-onset/adult-diagnosed ADHD. Maybe this is an accurate diagnosis for some. And even if it's an exaggeration in other cases, who cares, as long as the coping strategies or medication is improving someone's quality of life.
What's sad to me, though, is when the diagnosis becomes an all-consuming identity and an excuse to stop trying altogether, a way to shut out the rest of the world. These women I know who excelled in school and work or had creative hobbies and traveled the world, now they just post mental health memes all day and joke about how it's impossible to get out of bed. And if anyone suggests maybe they TRY getting out of bed and see how it feels to participate in X, Y, Z activity like we used to, then come the accusations that we're clueless NTs who will never understand what it's like to struggle.
And that's just not true. NTs also work hard and struggle at times...that's life. So let's just make sure all these diagnoses are helping and working FOR us rather than AGAINST us. And sometimes forgetting to brush your teeth is just ... forgetting to brush your teeth.
- On the surface, I probably look like the person you're describing, but no one knew I had an ADHD diagnosis that went ignored in childhood. No one knew how much I was masking every day. It's harder now because I have to make my own meals, clean my house, etc. All the things I didn't have to do as a kid. I got to learn, which I loved (my special interest is research) and do various activities I enjoyed, even if it was exhausting. Now, I'm stuck doing all the things I was never taught by my family, with no structure, just trying to survive. Of course it's harder than when I was a kid. Those memes help me feel valid and seen, something my family were never willing to do, but at least now I have friends that get it.
  There's so much trauma that happens from neurodivergence being ignored in childhood, and that takes time to process. I spend a lot of my days crying over all the times I wasn't allowed to cry growing up, processing things in therapy, etc. I literally can't force myself to enjoy life without first having the needed tools. It's sad that I can't do what I used to, but I'm slowly getting there. Kindness and patience are what are needed most, when that's not something I was given as a child.
  All this to say, you never know what's below the surface.
- ADHD and depression aren't mutually exclusive. What you and I might struggle with on a Tuesday might be the last straw for another person.
  Most people in real life who know me have almost no clue that I'm diagnosed with ADHD. I'm similar to the other person who responded to you, in the sense that no one bothered to teach me the coping skills I needed when I was younger. I'll be honest with you, people's attitudes towards it led me down a pretty dark path. I got fed up with random people assuming that they knew more about my diagnosis than my doctor did. I got tired of listening to people who had never even been around someone with ADHD tell me that I "wasn't trying hard enough" or that I "didn't try their family cure". So, nearly no one knows anymore. It can be isolating.
  I could have used my experiences as an excuse to be a judgemental, angry person, but I decided that I was better than that. Instead, now I try to help others in my life with the same or similar conditions. Sometimes, just being a little more emotionally open with people who are struggling can do wonders for them.
  If you were having the worst time of your life, you probably wouldn't want to listen to random people who are grumpy with you, right? You're probably going to go for the people who will actually hear what you have to say, even if they can't offer an instant fix.
  What I'm getting at, is sometimes people just want to be heard. They aren't necessarily looking for someone to tell them what they're doing wrong. Sometimes they're just looking for "oh man, I have that problem too!" or a "that sucks, I'm sorry to hear that". Mental health is easier when you don't feel alone.
  If I don't feel up to the task, I just scroll. Who am I to tell someone I don't know that they aren't trying hard enough? That's up to that person, the people who love them, and their doctor, imo.
  For the rare people who do use it as an excuse, you kind of have to wonder what else might be going on in their head. A lot of people are struggling. Please remember that correlation isn't always causation. Some people will milk everything that they can to get by easier, so it's not ADHD specific. For example, people like "Frank" from the show "Shameless".

I was in my mid 30’s when I was diagnosed with ADHD. Actually my twin daughter’s ADHD doctor asked me at one of their appointments if I had ever been tested/ seen about it. I was kinda confused since I didn’t think at the time I had it. Once I get tested and then started on ADHD meds… my whole life of struggles became clear. I had struggled with anxiety and depression from middle school on and was on two-three meds for that. Even then I still struggled with anxiety and panic.
Once started on ADHD meds, no longer needed my anxiety or depression meds. My doc said my ADHD presented with that. So that was a bonus!
I can’t stay focused, I “spin in circles” as I call it. Where my brain is like “boot looping” basically. I can’t start all the projects/ tasks I know I need/want to do… so I literally… SPIN. I get super frustrated with unfinished tasks and easily get distracted with something new.
Ie; folding laundry.. start putting them away and see I need to empty the trash in the bathroom, then, see the dishes need doing so Ofc I start washing them…and then one of my daughters starts talking to me and I’m off doing something else for them. End result? Bullshit. Laundry not done, dishes half assed… kid’s task.. well that’s completely done cause I have them there in front of me making sure it’s done… oh and trash IS emptied but I lost the trash can somewhere. Probably where the laundry is.
That is a typical day. I also am so “busy” all day I don’t eat till right when I’m sitting down for the first time all day and then I graze all evening long till bedtime…
- halfrommalcolminthemiddle.gif
  The shame of the incomplete task. Or I restarted it several times, got lost, and fully fucked it.
- Relatable

As far as I know, I’m neurotypical and stuff is still the same for me as OP. I don’t think it’s a neurotypical or not thing, I just think different people form habits differently.
- Executive dysfunction is a symptom of lots of issues, you might well be neurodivergent to some degree. For me it’s Executive dysfunction. Time blindness. and a degree of face blindness. All of these things are super disruptive to my life.
- It's the same for 99.999% of people. There ain't a person on the planet that exercises automatically lol. "Oh geeze I didn't even realize I just ran those 10 miles it's just such a habit I didn't even think about it."
  Sure, there are certain tiny things that you form a habit with like maybe saying "you too" any time somebody says for you to "have a nice ___" which explains why sooo many people have that embarrassing moment when like a waiter drops food on your table and is like "enjoy your meal" and you say "thanks, you too!" Something like that is this person's version of a habit.
  But other things like brushing your teeth or cooking dinner or exercising or picking up your kids from school or something isn't an automatic action the way it's described here for almost everyone. I'm sure there's some huge outliers out there that swear they do all these things completely unconsciously or whatever but I'd argue they are an outrageously small minority.
  I think this is a combination of conflating multiple things into one generic definition of what a habit is, and then attributing that trait to the general public unanimously.
  
  It honestly reads like an excuse to not exercise and then blame your weight problems on things that are outside of your control.
  I jog a lot. It sucks every time and it’s hard to get out and do it every time. I still do it. It’s not a “turn off my brain and I’m just magically fitter” thing.
  This person is looking for excuses for their weight problems it seems to me.

For better or for worse, this is normal. Habits are never really easy to be honest, and they remain easy to break forever. I tried to make a habit out of flossing. I did it for awhile, and it almost felt like a habit I formed anew, but then one day I skipped it and it was all over. Hell I skip brushing my teeth sometimes and I actively have to avoid falling out of that habit too.
I don’t know if that helps or not. But I believe almost everyone feels this way about habit formation. I think you’re just more aware of your choice. Everyone does the activity consciously but most people aren’t really analyzing it in the same way as you describe.
- Yeah. The neurodivergent typically think that living like a robot is the solution to their problems. Everything needs to be in its place, or everything is wrong.

Hygiene is the thing I struggle with. Every time i brush my teeth it's, "I'd better do it while I'm think about it." Showering is an active choice which i hate doing because I dispise how my body looks. Exercising? Absolutely terrified because the last time I truly exercised I almost died due to a septic pelvis injury.
Often enough I dont have enough spoons to do everything I do in the day and spend a lot of it in bed. I'm currently trying to find a source of income and have put some images on redbubble, but the thought of holding down a job is foreign. ADHD, Autism, and Anxiety are not a good mix
- Showering is an active choice which i hate doing because I dispise how my body looks.
  Aha! I knew my “challenge” would come in handy sometime! I’m severely near-sighted and have pretty bad astigmatism, so for all I know, my body looks like Tom Brady

This is a joke, right ? (I'm seriously asking)
- I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. Just in case, no. Not a joke.
- its dead serious; I have adhd too and every single time I exercise is as hard as the first time, autopilot never kicks in
  
  When they say turn exercise into a habit, I don't think they mean it the same as in other habits where you do so without thought. I would say besides my actual OCD, I am a neurotypical person who has been working out for years. Yes it's a lot easier for me to do so now, but I still have to actively decide to go workout each and every time.
  
  Exercise never really gets easier, either mentally or physically. Even as a fairly neurotypical person, it's always easier to not work out than to work out. There's logical rationalizations that it's good for you and if you work out hard enough maybe your body will see fit to reward you with some endorphins, but it's only "habit" in so much that it's good self-discipline. I wouldn't lump it in with stuff like brushing your teeth at all.

My girlfriend, her mother and several family members have adhd. It's quite the experience for me beings I don't have it but I do understand it much better than I used to so I navigate the relationship rather well now... but people with adhd fatigue much quicker than people without it. The brain is being overworked and the mental becomes physical.
If you're exhausted, you sometimes don't communicate the right things, you won't normally finish an activity you started and you quite literally feel tired all the time. The depression is like buying bullets with the +p... it's more powerful but in the context we're talking about... the adhd seems more potent or concentrated to the point you become unaware of it often times than not.
Always seeking approval and or justification is your natural habitat... you want to be loved, you're insecure and you just hate that you ended up with this to work through or worry about. When you hurt someone, you typically hurt more because you didn't mean to hurt anyone. Often, you'll lie about something in order to protect your vulnerability or to avoid conflict of any sort.
This is what I have experienced with an adult where their ADHD has gone unmanaged and unnoticed but we're tearing down the walls and she's learning to communicate better as well as becoming more attentive to her condition while accepting it and working a little to make it a bit easier so it works for her and I...
In my experience with her for almost 6yrs now.... once I stopped seeing her as a threat, and when I stopped allowing her to constantly fumble the ball, things started improving but she had to understand and see what she was doing and how it effects people around her and even the responsibilities as an adult. For me, I had to learn how to not speak out of turn, and I had to help her find understanding without becoming insulting and it required me to be more supportive and loving before she started making an effort to cope on her own and willing to change some things that weren't healthy for the both of us.
This is the short version but hopefully you guys and gals understand what I'm sharing.
If you or someone you love has adhd. Wear it proudly! You are awesome and you are important and play a vital role in society. You go through things others don't think about or feel so don't give anyone the power to force you to live under a rock. If they were wise, they could learn quite a lot of good things about you, even if you can't say a whole lot about yourself that would represent you in a good light. In my opinion, you are the light so stay shiny!
- Good post, but what was she doing regularly that made her feel like a threat to you, if you don't mind my asking? Thanks for sharing all this. I'm trying to ascertain my own mental state and it is all overwhelming.
  
  Thanks for your reply!
  So what I mean by her being a threat to me doesn't suggest that she is violent towards me although some people, especially females can be violent sometimes.
  I'm talking about more of an external way to regulate anxiety. Usually this is why you'll hear some people share on various public forums or other social media that they think people with adhd are also narcissist. This is simply not true! They're just trying to manage the anxiety and stress and beings the battle is so extreme internally, people with adhd will often project their feelings towards someone else who they are close to in order to find relief for themselves. It appears to be of a malevolent or apathetic argument at that point and beyond because of the struggle to focus on any one thing for very long because the brain constantly runs. Usually people with adhd will feel like they are being gas-lighted if there's a reproach.
  It feels threatening when it happens but you can ask anyone with adhd, if they're caught in the act of doing this and are confronted, they'll always argue the fact that you said they did something bad and you didn't like it. They'll change the narrative most of the time because it simply isn't a thing for most people with adhd to be some kind of malevolent and violent person. If you have a partner with adhd and you have open communication about stuff like this when it happens and you really love each other, you'll find a childlike sorrow underneath all the hurt and or anger... just LOVE them and you'll learn so much more about adhd than you could in a counseling session alone. It's important that I never play the victim in any of these cases but instead I create a no judgment zone and atmosphere where I can still communicate in such a way she understands what she said or did without exposing her intention in a negative light.
  Some things are hard to explain to others unless you have lived out the experience. I hope the words I chose to try and answer your question was adequate enough and if not, I hope we can talk more about this or maybe someone else who is apart of this community can help me explain it better.
  But in all, I hope you find comfort and peace in your life and if you struggle with adhd that while you take an adventure to find yourself in all this it will become less burdensome to you.
  Did you know that many people with adhd. Once they learn more about it, they find relief? Things they have struggled with or any opposition they've faced along the way helps them understand why it all happened and they now have more tools in their toolbox to help them navigate life a little easier...
  I hope you and everyone else here has a wonderful day and thanks again for your reply!

Ahh yes, my "habits" are just routines I do often or daily. And I have a love hate relationship with them. I love that they work and help me take care of myself and my family. But I also hate having to do them, hate that I need them, and hate that if I change them I will in all likelihood forget something.

I'll be brutally honest. You're right, it doesn't get easier.
To paraphrase Kara Lawson, you just get better at handling hard stuff.
It sounds like you have a hard time forming habits. That's definitely how they're defined though. Habits are the things we do on autopilot.
As my username suggests, it's not all sunshine and roses. I used to have a habit of drinking and smoking. My typical cycle was that I'd wake up with a hangover and just go to work. Fortunately, that part was all on autopilot. I'd make it through work and do all the normal work crap. Assuming there was no office happy-hour, I would go to the train on autopilot. At this point I'd firmly intend not to buy wine or cigarettes. I meant it, 100%, every time. I'd take the train home and firmly intend to walk right past the liquor store, without stopping. But unfortunately my autopilot habit was just as strong here. Day after day I would just take a slight detour and end up with a pack of Camel lights, a bottle of Marques de Caceres and usually some variety drink, often some Hefeweizen or IPA.
Good habits can be really helpful. Bad habits can suck donkey balls. Changing them can be really hard. I enjoyed reading Atomic Habits and it helped me think about ways to influence my own autopilot behavior. If it makes you feel any better, exercise seems to be one of those habits that a lot of people find difficult. There's a well known phenomenon where gyms completely fill up on January 2 and then empty out around January 15 for the rest of the year.
It sounds like you're doing what you can to make yourself better at the hard stuff. Best of luck, friend.
I will not drink with you today.

For me (neurotypical as far as I know), habits are a mix of 3 things:
Conditioning from when I was a kid (quite literally Pavlovian Conditioning) which I will do without thinking. For example I will clean my shoes on the doormat both on the way in and the way out, the latter not really making logical sense: I've just been conditioned by my mother when I was a kid with constant "Clean your shoes!" and the behaviour just got associated with the trigger of going over the doormat, hence I unthinkingly do it also on the way out
Familiar and always (so far) no problem choices. For example having lunch in pretty much always the same handful of places, buying the same brand of certain things. As an introvert I am not comfortable with new places with new people plus there is a cognitive cost (and risk) with trying new things, hence the familiar feels comfortable and the unfamiliar discomforting. The habit is driven by favoring the easy/comforting over the discomforting. This is not the same as being unable to change: I'm actually a serial immigrant and can very quickly adjust to living in a completelly new place and a different country (nowadays it takes me only a few days) - it's just that there is a huge barrier to actually get myself to the point of starting such a change.
Stuff I have to force myself to do because it's important to do it for social or health reasons. Shave, proper cooking (rather than quick improvisation involving no significant meal preparation or ready-made meals), even brushing my teeth.
All those things qualify as habits (in the sense of being done regularly) but the drives for each class of thing are very different.
PS: I get the impression that what some think of as habits in a neurotypical sense is mainly the first class of things. As far as I know nobody has only conditioned habits, plus you can't really condition complex things (at best you can have a "get up and go do it" conditioning).

My worst habit is ignoring all the reminders on my phone... which I set in hope of building habits...🙁
- YES, and also when I don't ignore them think to myself that I can wait a bit before doing something and then completely forget it, it's worst with my meds, because they help me not forget it so when I forget to take it the likelihood of me forgetting the next day is very high and then the next day even worse
  
  Yes. I think of my train of thought as having one car on a good day. Mental load goes way up until I do that thing or take that med.

....fuck
- Fuck indeed.

I'm like this too, as a neurodivergent without ADHD. Everything I do, I do deliberately and thoughtfully, with intense focus. Even driving, I can't go into autopilot mode. It's probably why I need a nap most days...
- This is neurotypical.

As someone who thinks he has ADHD and not Bipolar is now confused after reading this. I feel like I have habits but I’m like half way in half way out on this. Feel like I’m straddling the fence.
- Oh. Manic Depressive? ADHD make sense sometimes? Of fucking course. I'm smart, compassionate, wise, and PERFECT.
  Half the time.
  Then I realize how much of a peice of shit I was when I KNEW I was like that.
  Not dismissing OPs issues, but you feel like you relate because SOMETIMES you do.
  I fucking hate my brain.
  
  I most recently got diagnosed. Had no idea I went into mania until the doc said so. I’m no Kanye west but I have my moments.

There are things that I get to become automatic but they're very small
- ...and that is good.
- Thats normal, stuff like hanging your keys up or something

I'm fairly certain I'm ND, but never fully knew if it was Autism (Aspergers?) or ADHD. Mom never followed up on the testing when I was a kid (and neither did I as an adult), but autism runs high in my family, and I have low and high functioning extended family.
Yeah, definitely not ADHD. I have issues, stims, triggers, but I'm functional, and can definitely form habits, and don't necessarily experience the issues noted here.

I have alarms. I feel this in my core though. I have very strict routines that I follow, but they sure as fuck aren't habbit's I have to watch the clock and get extremely anxious around the time I know I need to do things, all.the.things.
- I think everybody's different. I am autistic but don't have ADHD. Showering is not a habit, but I have partially managed to turn brushing my teeth into one. I know that for some people, brushing teeth happens without much thought— as long as it's part of an ordered routine, I think.
  
  I agree with your thionking, everyone is different and unique. I'm happy to hear you've found some basic things that work for you, good job! I do have very good routines, but at no point have they become "habit".

Lol at expecting me to read those when you’ve somehow managed to screenshot them at an angle.
- There was a note in the beginning of the text saying the transcription was below, but it may have been easy to miss, so I have edited the post for clarity. Thank you for letting me know.
  The images don't show up at an angle for me and no one else has mentioned it, so I'm not sure what's going on there.
  
  Sorry I thought you’d done it deliberately as a subtle joke. Are you saying that you don’t see that the first image is slightly slanted and the third one is slanted the other way?

Wait, what. You are blowing my mind right now.

So as a NT that is only recently thinking about how ND I might be, what's striking about this to me is that no only do I not have or form any "automatic" habits, but I think my lack of such or my lack of ability to form them has formed a deep aspect of my personality.
Like, I don't want to do anything "automatically", and any kind of environment or culture or expectation that relies on "just doing things automatically" is something I not only dismiss as unappealing and even "bad" but something I even get suspicious about and about the kinds of people that get into that. Like, however productive and helpful it is, I honestly think I've developed an unconscious distrust of people that simply "do things automatically" on the grounds that they're not plugged in enough to values and purposes and the "why this should be done".
Of course, maybe I've got a point there. Though maybe virtue doesn't play a role when it comes to the dishes. My point though is that I'm pretty sure I've incorporated this as a given and allowed it to inform my worldview, so I guess that's fun.
- This is a different voice. This is why I like the internet. No sarcasm.
  
  Ditto and appreciated.
- A fellow NT (as in undiagnosed, but have some ND traits) here with a very similar mindset. I love thinking about why I do what I do, I love having a reason to the way I do stuff and I love having an informed decision process. But I find that thinking about stuff equal caring about them, at least caring about them more than necessary. And don't you wish to not care as much all the time?
  I'll put aside things like how to raise the kids or work decisions (even if I think about them more than the average person). I don't like to care so much about how the dishwasher is loaded, or the optimal placement of cups in the cupboard. At least not always and leaving things alone is also a mental decision which requires some effort.
  To be clear, I'd rather be the way I am. Just wandering how other people handle it.

I have habits! …sometimes.
No but seriously, I get into what I call “ruts”, be they good or bad, where I’m doing (or not doing something) routinely…for a few days, weeks, even months, and then it all comes crashing down.
It’s like my autistic side is wrestling with my ADHD side: I WANT and NEED things to be the same, but I can’t maintain it, so I just flip flop between what is and isn’t “normal” in the moment, which makes switching back hard.

Huh... I definitely have to think about stuff, including habits.

Wait whoa wait hold the fuck UP just one damn minute... You mean to tell me that's not what a habit feels like? What in the FUCK!?
- I guess habits are automatic where you don't have to go through a checklist to get it done?

As an autistic person, habits are integral to my existence. I hate it when my schedule gets crazy, unless I very specifically plan for it. However, my husband who has ADHD, the above seems true. As a simple example: I always leave my stuff like keys, lunchbox, and headphones in the exact same spot when I get home from work. On the other hand, I spent 10 minutes this morning trying to find where my husband put the potato chips that I was planning on taking for lunch. Instead of being in the kitchen, they were in the living room(??!!) cos he moved them there to "get them out of the way."
I'm very structured in the way I work; he needs to be constantly redirected to stay on task. I have boundless attention to fiddly, very specific high-attention things (I do a lot of fiber crafts such as knitting and crocheting lace) for HOURS, to quote Neal Stephenson, "I have attention surplus disorder." He can't work on anything longer than 15 minutes.
It used to drive me crazy, but now I've realized that's just how his brain works, and we just work around it. On the other hand, he keeps makes me take breaks and pace myself (which I don't usually do), and I help him be more efficient. It's a pretty good system.
- I'm AuDHD. I need my keys and things in the same spot, but I also struggle to remember to actually put them there. That's the missing part of the habit for me. I have to consciously think "put them here" every time or future me will have a meltdown when they can't find what should be there.
- I do not have a proper autism diagnosis as I stopped after the initial screening (I am suspected to be though), but my existence is held together by habits.
  Some of these habits are pure preference, such as the first tea I drink in a day will have some honey added to it. Other habits I have conditioned myself into doing to the point where it feels wrong not to do them, such as scooping the litterbox every day. I also do the thing where everything has a fixed spot or order, and I even have a checklist in the morning to see that I have gathered and done everything I need to leave for work.
  The real challenge is making a difficult habit stick, or when something about my day changes. For example, in the morning on weekdays I brush my teeth as it is part of getting ready for work, but on weekends it's not in the order of things that I execute so it gets forgotten about. I might remember and then do it, or I might not. I will however always still brush them in the evening because it's in my evening routine. The difference here is that it is ok to maybe not do it then, but if I arrived at work with unbrushed teeth I'd be mortified and stressing all day...
  The "don't break the chain" method is good for difficult habits but I need to use something like a todo list to keep reminding me. I also struggled with tasks like doing the dishes for years because I absolutely hated the task. It's only after consistently doing them every time that eventually it got to a turning point where I was excited to get those stupid dishes over with so I could feel good about having it done. However despite that some things just never stick. Or I will not start them. Exercise for example.
  My partner has remarked it is a bit peculiar I do things always the same, but he has seen the advantage in that I am always prepared for everything. However while he can brush off having forgotten something, it can impact me greatly. It's been suggested to me I should get ADHD screening (and finish the autism one) because I do am distracted, I can start a routine task and never finish it because I got sidetracked and it somehow auto-completed in my brain. But at the same time I think I very much use habits and routines to deal with the fact that it keeps anxiety under control for me. Control as a whole makes me feel safe. But it does come at a cost. Not everyone likes how I am, which is fair, because it can overflow from me wanting to control my own stuff to me demanding control over others.

They should do what I do and get so stressed with other stuff that I hyperfocused on doing my taxed one night at 1AM while anxiously procrastinating something else

Dude we need some legit study or science on this because if so this blows my brain. I'm a huge proponent of Seinfeld chains, and books on habit science, improving yourself. I have several apps but I'M CONSTANTLY struggling to do these systems. Like it feels impossible.
I have quit nail biting, I've done a month of meditation. I can concentrate intently on one thing for a period of time but then I context switch and because I'm not actively everyday using a checklist to remember what I have to do I don't do it.
I have cavities right now because I focused on something else I needed to do regularly and let my teeth go.
My friends and family make fun of me for constantly changing interests and habits and that I can't stick with one thing. Maybe!!! They aren't the same way because it's EASIER for them to be in automatic mode to do the same thing.
This is really mind fucking me right now.
- I found a little bit. I found some papers and articles saying the striatum is different in both autistic and ADHD people. And I also found that the striatum is thought to be the part of the brain responsible for habit formation.
  I didn't keep a list of links but if you search up those topics you'll see for yourself.
- I love (/s) how I can develop a very good routine and then a month later I just kind of...forget? Like it's gone. Even with fun stuff. I played this online card game every day for a month and a few months later I saw the link on my computer and I was in shock. I had forgotten all about it.

I get routines that, once I get started, it's hard to stop.
For instance, take a shower, brush teeth, go to bed.
If I get really dirty and have to take a shower at noon, I have to actively remind myself NOT to brush my teeth and yes, even not to get into pajamas.
- This is new. I haven't heard of this.

Are these traits of aspergers, too? Asking for ... reasons.
- Autism, BPD, and ADHD all have overlapping symptoms. These traits, executive dysfunction, are definitely common between autism and ADHD.

I think there might be an axis here that is different than ADHD.
I certainly don’t have ADHD, but I don’t have any habits (outside of muscle memory, walking, breathing, etc) that works the way OP describes.
I brush my teeth because I think I should. A ‘habit to me’ is just that ‘situation X reminds me to do thing Y’.

No, xd, nobody just exercises without initiating it. The point of making exercise as a habit is that if you have this momentum then you might feel a slight obligation to do it and be more familiar with it so it's not intimidating.
- I'm not sure understood what Nome was trying to say. The momentum of which you speak never happens.
  I'm not the one downvoting you, btw. Thank you for sharing your viewpoint.
  
  I mean he literally said "Habits are things they automatically do, without thinking. They don't have to decide to do them."
  That's not true, everybody has to think about whether they're going to start some activity or not, muscle memory helps with e.g. driving so you don't need to think about how much to press the pedal or turn the wheel when driving, but you still have to think about where you're going (though I guess that can be relatively automatic by itself if it's somewhere where you regularly go).
  What I'm guessing might be a difference is that for other people it's easier to start the activity itself because they feel an urge to do it, like they're doing something bad if they don't or that they feel their teeth being dirty if they don't brush them.
  
  By momentum I don't mean you naturally find yourself with an urge to do it, I mean you might feel guilty because you cheated on an obligation you set for yourself- and you had s streak going for it

This is interesting. I'm an NT with several NDs in my family. This explains a lot about my husband and about my kids as they were growing up. The odd thing is, I also have a difficult time with developing habits and have to make myself do pretty much everything.

I don't think I have ADHD but that is the same with me.
- Many ADHD traits are shared with neurotypicals. It's when these things become an issue that most people seek help. Frequency, duration, intensity.
  
  My point is more that, it seems that person got a misconception - that habits are somehow completely automated for neurotypical folks. To be automated a task has to be learned by cerebellum, then like riding a bike - you don't have to actively think about it. Habits, seem to be too complex to be automated in that way.
  
  Many ADHD traits are shared with neurotypicals
  Then it's not an ADHD trait.

Nothing is a habit, eveything is an alarmed notification. This is the lifestyle i will lead to late future since can't afford therapy and ritalin anymore

I haven't been fully tested but my doctor agrees it is likely I have ADHD and this is all new to me, grain of salt.
I definitely do things without thinking. Drinking, snacking, vaping, reaching for phone just because my hands need to be busy. Mindless stuff.
As for what I think most neurotypical people consider habits I have maybe one that is somewhat automatic for me and that is I ALWAYS do my skincare and teeth before bed. But part of that is because that routine is really good sleep hygiene. Like it is still a decision, still a bit of a chore, but it would feel VERY wrong and off if I didn't do it.
Then um let's see I've been taking the same medication at the same time for over 15 years now and I still need an alarm on my phone and I have still forgotten to take it if I don't take it that very second. At least most of the time later in the day I suddenly remember...
- Your doctor diagnosed you. No further testing needed IMHO, because you aren't being different for "cool points". Let the treatment begin.
  Then um let’s see I’ve been taking the same medication at the same time for over 15 years now and I still need an alarm on my phone and I have still forgotten to take it if I don’t take it that very second.
  Like looking in a goddamn mirror. Yeah, if I don't do it THAT VERY SECOND, the alarm was worthless. I bought these because I can't remember even an hour later if I took my pill or not. I also have to do it that very second or it's worthless.
  Edit to add: the old person pill case is a better product than the switch thing I posted. I've used both and I'm going back to the pill case.
  
  I got the "old person" pill case with a compartment for each day. That helps more than I expected.
  
  Aw thank you! Yup totally worthless if you don't obey the alarm lol. I have totally dumped and counted pills before

I don't think any body for example would brush their teeth completely sub consciously, but when it becomes a habit I'd say it becomes the default choice rather than something you need to remember to go out of your way to do.
- The reminder and decision to do it becomes automatic. The action is still manual but easily becomes autopilot once started.

The only habits I seem to have are bad ones. Is that the ADHD or am I just shit?
- You are shit.
  _Just _kidding. _I _love _you.

I think that the neurotypicals have ability to make these things onto "habits" that then happen automatically for them.
As a person that has to remember to every time, and decide everything I do, from what time I get up, to when I drink (and what) to when I shower or even brush my teeth, it is exhausting just maintaining daily hygiene and while I fully understand why I need to do all those things and WANT to do them to maintain myself, none of it comes without considerable forethought and considered decision making.
Frankly it can be exhausting just to exist, let completely alone, progress.
- I'm not really into modern slang, but I'm "feeling seen" today. It makes me sad, though, that so many people share this with me.

I'm a little split on the implied "degree" of automation/lack of thought. But maybe "I" am the one that's split.

Reading this post and the comments has made me question whether I am neurotypical or not. I was never diagnosed with any kind of neurodivergence, but autism is present in my family. Is it possible that I’ve picked up ways of thinking from them or is it likely that I have some of the same traits, if not enough to warrant a diagnosis?
- How 'bout this. Next time you are at the doctor's office for whatever reason, you bring it up. Don't stress it for now.
  Many things that autistic or ADHD people do are relatable to most people. It's the old "frequency and duration of symptoms" that indicate neurodivergence.
  Maybe favorite posts that seem very relatable to you and you can make a list of these things before going in. Seriously, MAKE A LIST or have the favorites on your phone or you'll forget. If you are having significant troubles (like hygeine maintenance), go in sooner.
  I make this reply with the assumption that you see your doctor at least once a year.
  Imposter syndrome is kind of an Autistic and ADHD thing. You can have a ton of symptoms and still convince yourself that you're just doing it to fit in with the cool kids, haha.
  
  I will have to do that. This post prompted me to read multiple articles on neurodivergence, ADHD, and autism, and the relatability of much of it is honestly quite shocking. So that’s one more thing to talk to my doctor about (I already have a list of things to bring up with my doctor, though most of them concern physical health).

This has me paranoid like a dive into WebMD.
- Don't because this whole thing is fucking stupid. Everyone has to stop and think about brushing teeth. There is no autopilot mode that lets people take care of simple tasks without even thinking about it.
  If you're finding it difficult to brush your teeth, you're probably depressed, not necessarily ADHD.
  
  Thanks, doc! Send me the bill for your consultation. 👍🏼

Yes, it is a cliche that "habits are hard to beak", because they are things you've done so much that you are condition to do them automatically. Like, dictionary definition.

do you drive a car? ride a bike? walk? those are habits.

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