Tesla’s Autopilot and Full Self-Driving linked to hundreds of crashes, dozens of deaths
When it was time to react, often it was too late.
I’ve often wondered why the FTC allows it to be marketed as “Full Self-Driving”. That’s blatant false advertising.
As is “autopilot”. There’s no automatic pilot. You’re still expected to keep your hands on the wheel and your eyes on the road.
I am so sick and tired of this belief because it's clear people have no idea what Autopilot on a plane actually does. They always seem to assume it flies the plane and the pilot doesn't do anything apparently. Autopilot alone does not fly the damned plane by itself.
"Autopilot" in a plane keeps the wings level at a set heading, altitude, and speed. It's literally the same as cruise control with lane-centering, since there's an altitude issue on a road.
There are more advanced systems available on the market that can be installed on smaller planes and in use on larger jets that can do things like auto takeoff, auto land, following waypoints, etc. without pilot input, but basic plain old autopilot doesn't do any of that.
That expanded capability is similar to how things like "Enhanced Autopilot" on a Tesla can do extra things like change lanes, follow highway exits on a navigated route, etc. Or how "Full Self-Driving" is supposed to follow road signs and lights, etc. but those are additional functions, not part of "Autopilot" and differentiated with their own name.
Autopilot, either on a plane or a Tesla, alone doesn't do any of that extra shit. It is a very basic system.
The average person misunderstanding what a word means doesn't make it an incorrect name or description.
It’s not even the closest thing to self driving on the market, Mercedes has started selling a car that doesn’t require you to look at the road.
Only works under 40 mph. Only available in 2 states. Not available until the end of this year.
You can literally type in an address and the car will take you there with zero input on the driver's part. If that's not full self-driving then I don't know what is. What FSD was capable of a year ago and how it performs today is completely different.
Not only does these statistics include the way less capable older versions of it, it also includes accidents caused by autopilot which is a different system than FSD. It also fails to mention how the accident rate compares to human drivers.
If we replace every single car in the US with a self-driving one that's 10x safer driver than your average human that means you're still getting over 3000 deaths a year due to traffic accidents. That's 10 people a day. If one wants to ban these systems because they're not perfect then that means they'll rather have 100 people die every day instead of 10.
It also fails to mention how the accident rate compares to human drivers.
That may be because Tesla refuses to publish proper data on this, lol.
Yeah, they claim it's ten times better than a human driver, but none of their analysis methods or data points are available to independent researchers. It's just marketing.
You can literally type in an address and the car will take you there with zero input on the driver's part. If that's not full self-driving then I don't know what is.
Who is responsible if there is an accident, you or Tesla? That is the difference from true FSD and regular driver assistance features.
Regarding driving regulations -
If we had better raw data, I'm sure we could come up with better conclusions. Knowing the absolutely tremendous amount of BS that Musk spews, we can't trust anything Tesla reports. We're left to speculate.
At this point, it is probably best to compare statistics for other cars with similar technologies. For example, Volvo reported that they went 16 years without a fatal accident in their XC90 model in the UK (don't know about other places). That was a couple of years ago, I don't know if they have been able to keep that record up. With that kind of record that has lasted for so long, I think we have to ask why Tesla is so bad.
Move fast, break shit. Fake it till you sell it, then move the goal posts down. Shift human casualties onto individual responsibility, a core libertarian theme. Profit off the lies because it's too late, money already in the bank.
They just recalled all the Cybertrucks, because their 'smort' technology is too stupid to realize when an accelerator sensor is stuck...
The accelerator sensor doesn’t get stuck, pedal does. The face of the accelerator falls off and wedges the pedal into the down position.
I realize it's the pedal that gets stuck, but the computer registers the state of the pedal via a sensor.
The computer should be smart enough to realize something ain't right when it registers that both the accelerator and brake pedals are being pressed at the same time. And in that case, the brake should always take priority.
Accoring to the math in this video: :
Doesnt sound to bad, until you hear that a human produces 1.35 deaths per 100M miles driven...
Its rough math, but holy moly that already is a completely other class of deadly than a non FSD car
a human produces 1.35 deaths per 100M miles driven
My car has been driven around 100k miles by a human, i.e. it has produced 0.00135 deaths. Is that like a third of a pinky toe?
Yeah, another 900k, and you'll be ded.
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That number is like 1.5 billion now and rising exponentially fast.
Also those deaths weren't all FSD they were AP.
The report says 1 FSD related (not caused by but related) death. For whatever reason the full details on that one weren't released.
Edit: There are billions of miles on AP. In 2020 it was 3 billion
Edit: Got home and I tried finding AP numbers through 2024 but haven't seen anything recent, but given 3 billion 2020, and 2 billion in 2019, and an accelerating rate of usage with increased car sales, 2023 is probably closer to 8 billion miles. I imagine we'd hear when they reach 10 billion.
So 8 billion miles, 16 AP fatalities (because that 1 FSD one isn't the same) is 1 fatality per 500,000,000 miles, or put into the terms above by per 100mil miles, 0.2 fatalities per 100 million miles or 6.75 times less than a human produces. And nearly all of these fatal accidents were from blatant misuse of the system like driving drunk (at least a few) or using their phone and playing games.
If Red Bull can be successfully sued for false advertising from their slogan "It gives you wings", I think it stands that Tesla should too.
Any time now it will be released. Like 7 years ago the taxis.
“If you’ve got, at scale, a statistically significant amount of data that shows conclusively that the autonomous car has, let’s say, half the accident rate of a human-driven car, I think that’s difficult to ignore,” Musk said.
That's a very problematic claim - and it might only be true if you compare completely unassited vehicles to L2 Teslas.
Other brands also have a plethora of L2 features, but they are marketed and designed in a different way. The L2 features are activate but designed in a way to keep the driver engaged in driving.
So L2 features are for better safety, not for a "wow we live in the future" show effect.
For example lane keeping in my car - you don't notice it when driving, it is just below your level of attention. But when I'm unconcentrated for a moment the car just stays on the lane, even on curving roads. It's just designed to steer a bit later than I would do. (Also, even before, the wheel turns minimally lighter into the direction to keep the car center of lane, than turning it to the other direction - it's just below what you notice, however if you don't concentrate on that effect)
Adaptive speed control is just sold as adaptive speed control - it did notice it uses radar AND the cameras once, as it considers. my lane free as soon the car in front me clears the lane markings with its wheels (when changing lanes)
It feels like the software in my car could do a lot more, but its features are undersold.
The combination of a human driver and the driver assist systems in combination makes driving a lot safer than relying on the human or the machine alone.
In fact the braking assistant has once stopped my car in tight traffic before I could even react, as the guy in front of me suddenly slammed their brakes. If the system had failed and not detected the situation then it would have been my job to react in time. (I did react, but can't say if I might have been fast enough with reaction times)
What Tesla does with technology is impressive, but I feel the system could be so. much better if they didn't compromise saftey in the name of marketing and hyperbole.
If Tesla's Autopilot was designed frim ground up to keep the driver engaged, I believe it would really be the safest car on the road.
I feel they are rather designed to be able to show off "cool stuff".
Tesla's autopilot isn't the best around. It's just the most deployed and advertised. People creating autopilot responsibly don't beta test them with the kind of idiots that think Tesla autopilot is the best approach.
If Tesla's self-driving isn't the best one around then which one is? I'm not aware of any other system capable of doing what FSD does. Manufacturers like Mercedes may have more trust in their system because it only works on a limited number of hand-picked roads and under ideal conditions. I still wouldn't say that what essentially is a train is better system for getting around than a car with full freedom to take you anywhere.
VERGE articles seem to be getting worse over the years, they've almost reached Forbes level, yes this does raise some valid safety concerns. No Tesla isn't bad just because it's Tesla.
It doesn't really give us the full picture. For starters, there's no comparison with Level 2 systems from other car makers, which also require driver engagement and have their own methods to ensure attention. This would help us understand how Tesla's tech actually measures up.
Plus, the piece skips over extremely important stats that would give us a clearer idea of how safe (or not) Tesla's systems are compared to good old human driving.
We're left in the dark about how Tesla compares in scenarios like drunk, distracted, or tired driving—common issues that automation aims to mitigate. (probably on purpose).
It feels like the article is more about stirring up feelings against Tesla rather than diving deep into the data. A more genuine take would have included these comparisons and variables, giving us a broader view of what these technologies mean for road safety.
I feel like any opportunity to jump on the Elon hate wagon is getting tiresome. (and yes i hate Elon too).
I lost faith in the verge after how they handled the whole PC build fiasco
A couple of my criticisms with the article, which is about "autopilot" and not fsd:
-conflating autopilot and dad numbers, they are not interoperable systems. They are separate code bases with different functionality.
-the definition of "autopilot" seems to have been lifted from the aviation industry. The term is used to describe a system that controls the vector of a vehicle, is the speed and direction. That's all. This does seem like a correct description for what the autopilot system does. While "FSD" does seem like it does not live up to expectations, not being a true level 5 driving system.
Merriam Webster defines autopilot thusly:
"A device for automatically steering ships, aircraft, and spacecraft also : the automatic control provided by such a device"
"And yes, I hate elon too, but"
a more genuine take would have included a series of scenarios (e.g. drunk/distracted/tired driving)
I agree. they did tesla dirty. a more fair comparison would've been between autopilot and a driver who was fully asleep. or maybe a driver who was dead?
and why didn't this news article contain a full scientific meta analysis of all self driving cars??? personally, when someone tells me that my car has an obvious fault, I ask them to produce detailed statistics on the failure rates of every comparable car model
a driver who was fully asleep. or maybe a driver who was dead?
why does it need to become a specious comparison for it to be valid in your expert opinion? because those comparisons are worthless.
I love to hate on musky boi as much as the next guy, but how does this actually compare to vehicular accidents and deaths overall? CGP Grey had the right idea when he said they didn't need to be perfect, just as good as or better than humans.
Grey had the right idea when he said they didn't need to be perfect, just as good as or better than humans.
The better question - is Tesla's FSD causing drivers to have more accidents than other driving assist technologies? It seems like a yes from this article and other data I've linked elsewhere in this thread.
I appreciate this response amongst all the malding! My understanding of the difference in assistive technologies across different companies is lacking, so I'll definitely look more into this.
CGP Grey also seems to believe self driving cars with the absence of traffic lights is the solution to traffic as opposed to something like trains.
/c/fuckcars is that way, thanks for stopping by
Cars will never be dethroned. Yes, trains are cool - choo choo motherfucker. Yes, bikes are environmentally friendly. Yes, the car is a truly fucking horible answer to the question "how to get from A to B".
But that's because cars are the answer to the question "how to get from A to B comfortably". I don't want my baby and my in-law to get on the back of my bike when we're going camping. I don't want to take the train and then walk 2 miles from the station every single fucking day with 20kg of tools in my hand, because shit, the train doesn't stop next to my house, and it doesn't stop next to my work. I want to be able to have acces to comfortable transportation.
So the answer will still be the car. Even with everyone crying about it. Cause the cat's out of the bag with cars, we made them efficient and cheap enough to not be considered luxury items anymore. And some countries (see: US) have their entire infrastructure built with cars in mind. You're never putting the lid back on this, even if it's a decent idea.
A comment above points to a nearly 11x increase over human caused fatalities
That comment was wrong. I pointed out why in a reply.
Yeah and that's the problem, they're no where near "as good"
Is the investigation exhaustive? If these are all the crashes they could find related to the driver assist / self driving features, then it is probably much safer than a human driver. 1000 crashes out of 5M+ Teslas sold the last 5 years is actually a very small amount
I would want an article to try and find the rate of accidents per 100,00, group it by severity, and then compare and contrast that with human caused accidents.
Because while it's clear by now Teslas aren't the perfect self driving machines we were promised, there is no doubt at all that humans are bad drivers.
We lose over 40k people a year to car accidents. And fatal car accidents are rare, so multiple that by like 100 to get the total number of car accidents.
The question isn't "are they safer than the average human driver?"
The question is "who goes to prison when that self driving car has an oopsie, veers across three lanes of traffic and wipes out a family of four?"
Because if the answer is "nobody", they shouldn't be on the road. There's zero accountability, and because it's all wibbly-wobbly AI bullshit, there's no way to prove that the issues are actually fixed.
The answer is the person behind the wheel.
Tesla makes it very clear to the driver they you still have to pay attention and be ready to take over any time. Full self driving engages the in cabin nanny cam to enforce that you pay attention, above and beyond the frequent reminders to apply turning force to the steering wheel.
Now, once Tesla goes Mercedes and says you don't have to pay attention, it's gonna be the company that should step in. I know that's a big old SHOULD, but right now that's not the situation anyway.
The question isn’t “are they safer than the average human driver?”
How is that not the question? That absolutely is the question. Just because someone is accountable for your death doesn't mean you aren't already dead, it doesn't bring you back to life. If a human driver is actively dangerous and get taken off the road or put in jail, there are very likely already plenty more taking that human drivers place. Plus genuine accidents, even horrific ones, do happen with human drivers. If the death rate for self-driving vehicles is really that much lower, you are risking your life that much more by trusting in human drivers.
I don't agree with your argument.
Making a human go to prison for wiping out a family of 4 isn't going to bring back the family of 4. So you're just using deterrence to hopefully make drivers more cautious.
Yet, year after year.. humans cause more deaths by negligence than tools can cause by failing.
The question is definitely "How much safer are they compared to human drivers"
It's also much easier to prove that the system has those issues fixed compared to training a human hoping that their critical faculties are intact. Rigorous Software testing and mechanical testing are within legislative reach and can be made strict requirements.
Because if the answer is "nobody", they shouldn't be on the road
Do you understand how absurd this is? Let's say AI driving results in 50% less deaths. That's 20,000 people every year that isn't going to die.
And you reject that for what? Accountability? You said in another comment that you don't want "shit happens sometimes" on your headstone.
You do realize that's exactly what's going on the headstones of those 40,000 people that die annually right now? Car accidents happen. We all know they happen and we accept them as a necessary evil. "Shit happens"
By not changing it, ironically, you're advocating for exactly what you claim you're against.
The question for me is not what margins the feature is performing on, as they will likely be better than human error raters, but how they market the product irresponsiblely.
The driver. Your whole statement is a total straw man.
I was looking up info for another comment and found this site. It's from 2021, but the information seems solid.
https://www.flyingpenguin.com/?p=35819
This table was probably most interesting, unfortunately the formatting doesn't work on mobile, but I think you can make sense of it.
Car 2021 Sales So Far Total Deaths
Tesla Model S 5,155 40
Porsche Taycan 5,367 ZERO
Tesla Model X 6,206 14
Volkswagen ID 6,230 ZERO
Audi e-tron 6,884 ZERO
Nissan Leaf 7,729 2
Ford Mustang Mach-e 12,975 ZERO
Chevrolet Bolt 20,288 1
Tesla Model 3 51,510 87
So many cars with zero deaths compared to Tesla.
It isn't if Tesla's FSD is safer than humans, it's if it's keeping up with the automotive industry in terms of safety features. It seems like they are falling behind (despite what their marketing team claims).
That's kind of a tough article to trust if I'm being honest. It may in fact be true, but it's an opinion piece.
I find it a little weird to look only within sales for the year and also not to discuss the forms of autopilot or car use cases.
For example, are we talking about highway only driving, lane keeping assist, end to end residential urban, rural unmarked roads? Some of these are harder problems than others. How about total mileage as well? I'm not sure what the range is on a Nissan leaf, but I think comparing it to a Taycan or mach e seems disingenuous.
All that being said, yeah Tesla has a lot of deaths comparatively, but still way less than regular human drivers. I worry that a truly autonomous experience will not be available until and unless a manufacturer like Tesla pushes the limits on training data and also the fed responds by making better laws. Considering Elon douchiness, I'm also kinda happy Tesla is doing that and catching flak, but paving the way for more established manufacturers.
We were early adopters of Tesla, and trust me the cars are made cheap and the "autopilot" drives like shit even now, but it's amazing the progress that has been made in the last 6 years.
I know this is going to sound bad but bear with me and read my entire post. I think in this case it might be that people are trying to hate on Tesla because it's Elon (and fair enough) rather than self-driving itself. Although there's also the side of things that self-driving vehicles are already very likely safer than human-driven ones, have lower rates of accidents, etc but people expect there to be zero accidents whatsoever with self-driving which is why I think self-driving may never actually take off and become mainstream. Then again, there's the lack of accountability, people prefer being able to place the blame and liability on something concrete, like an actual human. It's possible I'm wrong but I don't think I am wrong about this.
edit: I looked further into this, and it seems I am partially wrong. It seems that Tesla is not keeping up with the average statistics in the automotive industry in terms of safety statistics, the self-driving in their vehicles seem less safe than their competitors.
Only Elon calls his level 2 automation “FSD” or even “Autopilot”. That alone proves that Tesla is more guilty of these deaths than other makers are who choose less evil marketing terms. The dummies who buy Elon’s crap take those terms at face value and the Nazi CEO knows that, he doesn’t care though because just like Trump he thinks of his fans as little more than maggots. Can’t say I blame him.
Obviously the time to react to the problem was before the system told you about it, that's the whole point, THE SYSTEM IS NOT READY. Cars are not ready to drive themselves, and obviously the legal system is too slow and backwards to deal with it so it's not ready either. But fuck it let's do it anyway, sure, and while we're at it we can do away with the concept of the driver's license in the first place because nothing matters any more and who gives a shit we're all obviously fucking removed.
Tesla has very misleading marketing surrounding the "autonomy" of their vehicles. Mercedes Benz is the first (and only) company in the US to have a level 3: fully self-driving.
Yep, and even then it is very limited in when and where you can use it at this point.
Level 4 is the general use “high autonomy” vehicle, and while a few robotaxis and shuttles are able to do it, no regular car has it yet.
Fuck cars, those ones specifically
When I see this comment it makes me wonder, how do you feel when you see someone driving a car?
Should I feel guilty for owning a car. I’m 41 and I got my first car when I was 40, because I changed careers and it was 50 miles away.
I rarely used it outside of work and it was a means to get me there. I now work remote 3 days so only drive 2.
I don’t have social media or shop with companies like Amazon. I have just been to my first pro-Palestine protest.
Am I to be judged for using a car?
I believe what they mean is "fuck car centric societal design". No reasonable person should be mad that someone is using the current system to live their life (i.e. driving to work). What the real goal is spreading awareness that a car centric society is inherently isolating and stressful, and that one more lane does absolutely nothing to lessen traffic (except for like a month ish)
Probably not you personally, but the system, oil companies, and people like Musk and his followers that want to prioritize private driving over public transportation.
I say fuck cars, and I have one too. I try to avoid using it, but it's easy to be lazy. I'm also fortunate to live someplace with great public transportation.
Don't take it personally, just realize life can be better if we could learn to live without these huge power-hungry cargo containers taking us everywhere.
That's a good question!
The short answer is no. Cars suck for many reasons, but it's a fact in many parts of the world that you cannot be a functioning member of a society without one, especially if your government doesn't get that cars suck or you live somewhere remote.
How do I feel when I see someone driving a car? Mostly my feelings don't change, because it is so normalized. But I get somewhat angry when I see uselessly huge cars that are obviously just a waste of resources. I have fun ridiculing car centric road and city design, but it's the bad kind of fun.
I am also very careful around cars, both while I'm in and outside of them. Cars are very heavy and drivers are infamous for being bad at controlling them. This isn't their fault, it's super easy to make mistakes while driving, you just have to move your feet a little too fast or move your hand a little too far and boom, someone is dead.
Think about driving on a highway. If the guy next to you accidentally moves the wheel a little more than usual, that car will crash into you, creating a horrendous scene. It's just too prone to failure, and failure will probably mean person damages. For this reason, cars are legitimately scaring me, even if I have to deal with it.
Sorry if that does not make sense to you. I'm still trying to figure all this out for myself and I'm not always rational about these topics, because seeing the potential of our cities being wasted by car centric design makes me angry.
What!!!!!! I thought Elon had it all figured out, No Way!
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1744821656990675184
\s
It only matters if the autopilot does more kills than an average human driver on the same distance traveled.
If the cars run over people while going 30kmh because they use cameras and a bug crashed into the camera and that caused the car to go crazy, that is not acceptable, even if the cars crash "less than humans".
Self driving needs to be highly regulated by law and demand to have some bare minimum sensors, including radars, lidars, etc. Camera only self driving is beyond stupid. Cameras cant see in snow or dark or whatever. Anyone who has a phone knows how fucky the camera can get under specific light exposures, etc.
Noone but tesla is doing camera only "self driving" and they are only doing it in order to cut down the cost. Their older cars had more sensors than their newer cars. But Musk is living in his Bioshock uber capitalistic dream. Who cares if a few people die in the process of developing visual based self driving.
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No it doesn't. Every life stolen matters and if it could be found that if tesla could have replicated industry best practice and saved more lives so that they could sell more cars then that is on them
this is bullshit.
A human can be held accountable for their failure, bet you a fucking emerald mine Musk won't be held accountable for these and all the other fool self drive fuckups.
This is 100% correct. Look at the average rate of crashes per mile driven with autopilot versus a human. If the autopilot number is lower, they're doing it right and should be rewarded and NHTSA should leave them be. If the autopilot number is higher, then yes by all means bring in the regulation or whatever.
This is the actual logical way to think about self driving cars. Stop down voting him because "Tesla bad" you fuckin goons.
Tesla's self driving appears to be less safe and causes more accidents than their competitors.
"NHTSA’s Office of Defects Investigation said in documents released Friday that it completed “an extensive body of work” which turned up evidence that “Tesla’s weak driver engagement system was not appropriate for Autopilot’s permissive operating capabilities."
It's not logical, it's ideological. It's the ideology that allows corporations to run a dangerous experiment on the public without their consent.
And where's the LIDAR again?
Knock knock
“Who is it?”
“Goons”
“Hired Goons”
But... Panel gaps!
Is linked to excess deaths? Technically it could be saving lives at a population scale. I doubt that's the case, but it could be. I'll read the article now and find out.
Edit: it doesn't seem to say anything regarding "normal" auto related deaths. They're focusing on the bullshit designation of an unfinished product as "autopilot",and a (small) subset of specific cases that are particularly aggregious, where there were 5-10 seconds of lead time into an incident. In these cases a person who was paying attention wouldn't have been in the accident.
Also some clarity edits.
As I said! People in this thread are dumb (IMO). If they read the article they would literally see most of these crashes were because of autopilot misuse. I'm highly confident even with these deaths - there would be more then this if there was no autopilot at all and if these people were driving manually. I got no data on this but that's just my hunch.
I just read on LinkedIn a post from a Tesla engineer laid off.
He said "I checked my email while auto piloting to work".
The employees know more than anyone its capabilities and they still take the same stupid risk.
Just like fight club, they're imagining them crashing into every transport they come close to
This is the best summary I could come up with:
In March 2023, a North Carolina student was stepping off a school bus when he was struck by a Tesla Model Y traveling at “highway speeds,” according to a federal investigation that published today.
The Tesla driver was using Autopilot, the automaker’s advanced driver-assist feature that Elon Musk insists will eventually lead to fully autonomous cars.
NHTSA was prompted to launch its investigation after several incidents of Tesla drivers crashing into stationary emergency vehicles parked on the side of the road.
Most of these incidents took place after dark, with the software ignoring scene control measures, including warning lights, flares, cones, and an illuminated arrow board.
Tesla issued a voluntary recall late last year in response to the investigation, pushing out an over-the-air software update to add more warnings to Autopilot.
The findings cut against Musk’s insistence that Tesla is an artificial intelligence company that is on the cusp of releasing a fully autonomous vehicle for personal use.
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Cameras and AI aren't a match for radar/lidar. This is the big issue with the approach to autonomy Tesla's take. You've only a guess if there are hazards in the way.
Most algorithms are designed to work and then be statistically tested. To validate that they work. When you develop an algorithm with AI/machine learning, there is only the statistical step. You have to infer whole systems performance purely from that. There isn't a separate process for verification and validation. It just validation alone.
When something is developed with only statistical evidence of it working you can't be reliably sure it works in most scenarios. Except the exact ones you tested for. When you design an algorithm to work you can assume it works in most scenarios if the result are as expected when you validate it. With machine learning, the algorithm is obscured and uncertain (unless it's only used for parameter optimisation).
Machine learning is never used because it's a better approach. It's only used when the engineers don't know how to develop the algorithm. Once you understand this, you understand the hazard it presents. If you don't understand or refuse to understand this. You build machines that drive into children, deliberately. Through ignorance, greed and arrogance Tesla built a machine that deliberately runs over children.
Cars linked to hundreds of crashes, dozens of deaths.
I guess we should ban autopilot so we can go back to nobody having accidents in cars.
So we should let musk endanger people needlessly for tesla's profits?
a human driver isn't 100% but you can at least hold the human liable for their mistakes. Is Musk going to be liable for the accidents this causes?
Because that's the human left in the loop, the fool self drive champion.
This just breaking, cars linked to thousands of crashes and deaths.
This is speculation, but were most of them from people who disabled the safety features?
Probably not
You don't have to disable it to beat the safety system.
They were all pretty much due to inattentiveness, though. Many were drunk drivers.
Many do use defeat devices as well, but not all.
This was all brand new when it first came out and we didn't really have proper regulations for it. Things have gotten more restrictive, but people do still find ways around it and there's no fool proof solution to this as humans are smart and will find ways around things.
Stop. Using. Cars.
OK.
Question: how do you propose I get to work? It's 15 miles, there are no trains, the buses are far too convoluted and take about 2 hours each way (no I'm not kidding), and "move house" is obviously going to take too long ("hey boss, some rando on the internet said "stop using cars" so do you mind if I take indefinite leave to sell my house and buy a closer one?").
It's just a dozen! You know how many people COVID took? And everyone wanted COVID! ...it spreads of the air? Where's my fabric non filtering 😷 mask with added holes baby!? So you know...how cool would it be if you're riding a ordinary car and someone else is driving it into a wall or semi, except it's actually not a sentient being but an algorithm? It would be pretty cool right?
These are spanning from the earliest adopters, up until August of last year. Plenty of idiots using a cruise control system and trusting their lives to beta software. Not the same as the current FSD software.
Your own car insurance isn’t based on your driving skill when you had your learners permit. When Tesla takes on the liability and insurance for CyberCab, you’ll know it’s much safer than human drivers.
But Tesla had a video in 2016 saying that people were only in the driver seat for legal reasons. Musk even said it was only an issue with regulators.
Oh, who to believe!
Notice, when talking about new features, Tesla shills love to promote how great it is and how often it saves then from problems (I can't imagine how badly they must drive. We intervened on our grandmother after a couple of close calls). Then, when there is news about these accidents, they are so quick to blame the driver.
Also, all these problems are with the old versions, the new versions clean up everything.
I do agree with OP here about one thing - don't take anything Tesla and Musk say about the cars' capabilities seriously (including how that might impact stock price) until Tesla is willing to take financial responsibility for accidents. Until then, it's all Musk bullshit.
Plenty of idiots using a cruise control system and trusting their lives to beta software.
Using it exactly as it was marketed doesn't make you an idiot.
You really want to get into reality versus marketing in this world? Very little marketing actually shows real world products and use cases in a real world environment. Heck, advertising often doesn't even show the actual product at all.
Your McDonald's burger is NEVER going to look like the marketing photo. You don't want to get anywhere near that "ice cream" or "milkshake" from the ad either, mashed potatoes and glue are often used for those advertising replacements.
This doesn't even get into things like disclaimers and product warnings, or people ignoring them.
Great. Let me know when Tesla takes on the liability and insurance for CyberCab
There are some real Elon haters out there. I think they're ugly as sin but I'm happy to see more people driving vehicles with all the crazy safety features, even if they aren't perfect.
You're in control of a massive vehicle capable of killing people and destroying property, you're responsible for it.
You're in control of a massive vehicle capable of killing people and destroying property, you're responsible for it.
If only Elon would say something similar when he re-tweets a video of people having sex while the car is on autopilot. Can you guess what he actually said?
Moran
I'm quite certain that there will be some humble pie served to the haters in not too distant future. The performance of FSD 12.3.5 is all the proof you need that an actual robotaxi is just around the corner. Disagree with me all you want. All we need to do is wait and see.
However I'm also sure that the cognitive dissonance is going to be so strong for many of these people that even a mountain of evidence is not going to change their mind about it because it's not based in reason in the first place but emotions.
What makes this time any different from the dozens of other times musk had said we're six months away from FSD? When do you think Tesla will take responsibility for accidents that happen while using their software?
If they do that in the next year, I'll gladly eat humble pie. If they can't, will you?