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  • I'm pro unconditional basic income, but I would argue that it's more about you having to make sure you have everything you need yourself. No one would say to someone who lives completely self-sufficient that he needs "to earn a living".

  • Talking to someone who justifies this kinda shit is always a trip. They'll say that people who aren't earning a living wage just need to work harder and pick up a marketable skill to improve their situation. But you can simultaneously get them to agree that many of these low wage "unskilled" jobs need to exist for society to continue functioning, so which fucking is it?

    The answer is that the capitalist parasites and their horde of boot lickers believe it's totally acceptable for there to exist an underclass of human beings born to work until their bodies give out for the enrichment of their superior employer.

    They can't afford to live a dignified life doing the shit I need them to do? That's fine, just toss 'em into the hole when they stop working and replace them with the next generation.

    Honestly man, I'm getting real sick and tired of pretending to be above violent retribution when it comes to these people. My blood fucking boils each and every time I need to look my boss in the eye and pretend to smile as they say farcical shit like "we're all a family here" or "let us know if there's anything you need" while paying me exactly the minimum wage and hiring the exact number of employees it takes for them to avoid giving any of us enough hours to qualify for benefits.

    Anyway, Stalin had the right idea with gulags, and we should bring those back. Thanks for coming to my TED talk

  • You do have a right to be alive, if you can gather the food to put in your mouth and get shelter (in most climates), and defend yourself from predators.

    'Earning a living' is just some way people can do that. But you still need to defend against the predators.

    • Take your eugenics pseudoscience bullshit and shove it up your ass.

      There is no if. We're a social species, if everyone thought like you, people like Stephen Hawking would have never lived a full life.

      We lose so many good people to the "earn it" mentality.

      Babies don't come out the womb walking. Nor are people born with the ability to hunt. Everything you have was given to you by another. Your mother didn't ask you to earn it until you could, and whether or not people can is largely determined by their environment.

      Not to mention, how fucking arrogant do you have to be to demand someone earn the right to live? Who do you think you are, God?

      And then there is the little problem of capitalism rewarding people who "earned it" who are actually bad for society. Unless you think people like Biden and Trump somehow are more competent than most people? Both are rich and powerful people. Yet one is a genocidal asshole and the other is a con man. You'd have to be crazy to think they earned their power. I'd wager there are many homeless people that do less harm to the world than either.

      • Take your eugenics pseudoscience bullshit and shove it up your ass.

        How very rational and social of you to make assumptions about what I'm saying and to attack me based on that. Shall we move on?

        There is no if. We're a social species, if everyone thought like you, people like Stephen Hawking would have never lived a full life.

        Firstly - you're making a lot of assumptions about how I think. Secondly - this is like those billboards that say "This baby was destined to cure cancer, but she was aborted." It has no merit. What happened in reality was, in a world where there are constraints on available energy, some people took care of Stephen Hawking (which is great). I have no problem with that. But those people are not obligated to. They did so for their own reasons, and we're all the richer for it.

        Had they been forced to, that would simply be slavery.

        We lose so many good people to the "earn it" mentality.

        Perhaps that is because it's an important facet of life. While not the only facet, it's an important one. If you deny that, it will simply continue happening, only you'll feel violated by its existence. If you accept it, you can see that it has areas of applicability, and areas where it's not applicable. ..and the whole us-vs-them fuck-the-man bullshit goes right out the window, along with the whole 'fuck everyone else, it's all cold and hard, i'm just gonna get mine' bullshit.

        Babies don't come out the womb walking. Nor are people born with the ability to hunt. Everything you have was given to you by another. Your mother didn't ask you to earn it until you could, and whether or not people can is largely determined by their environment.

        Absolutely. We all stand on the foundations that have been created by others and by fundamental processes. If we don't care for others, we lose not just the capacity to pass on what we have built and learned, but also some pretty core stuff that makes the human experience worthwhile.

        However, the underlying processes of life and death, of energy requirements, and of rational necessity also cannot be denied without paying a huge cost in quality of life, and in life itself.

        Not to mention, how fucking arrogant do you have to be to demand someone earn the right to live? Who do you think you are, God?

        I make no demands. I simply state what the underlying reality is. To me, it looks like you are subject to the requirement that you must "earn a living", or have someone earn a living for you - regardless of whether you are a human in a capitalist society, a socialist one, or one that accepts or denies your sovereignty. Hell, you could even be a plant, and you'd still have to do the things required for survival. One way people think of that is 'earning a living.' But, of course, you can think of it (or not) however makes you happy.

        And then there is the little problem of capitalism rewarding people who "earned it" who are actually bad for society. Unless you think people like Biden and Trump somehow are more competent than most people? Both are rich and powerful people. Yet one is a genocidal asshole and the other is a con man. You'd have to be crazy to think they earned their power. I'd wager there are many homeless people that do less harm to the world than either.

        I don't think they earned their power. I think they are examples of the way in which our current systemic principles are failing. As our principles fail (all do at some point), they start to leak power, which gets snapped up by whatever form of life (like genocidal assholes and conmen) that is willing to seize that power niche. But, they are like starving people, fighting for scraps rather than ensuring there will be food. Or like drowning people, pulling down anyone who tries to help. I can't really blame them - that's the situation they were put into - but I definitely wouldn't back them. Better to do things a way that does work.

    • Gee, I thought our standards of living had raised since the hunter gatherer days. I thought we had an idea of human rights. But it seems that advocates of capital like yourself are more willing to let the disabled die than most hunter gatherer tribespeople would be. All our wealth, and you people are more miserly with it than those who have nearly nothing.

      • Our standards of living have increased, and that's nice. But there is no question of whether or not anyone deserves to live. You simply live, until you don't, like all life.

        The increase in standards of living isn't because we have eradicated the underlying animal needs, but rather, because we have been meeting them effectively. Sadly, this is only in the short term - we have major species-wide issues with our long-term course, but that, perhaps, is another conversation.

        In any case, by denying the fundamental system you are based in, and demanding that survival not take any energy, you undercut your own foundation, and that causes problems for you.

        Human rights are a social contract. They are nice, and we should keep them. However, they don't eradicate the animal and natural foundation upon which we stand, and they absolutely must bend to necessity.

        You have an animal right to exist until you die by natural processes, like disease, old age, predation, etc. You have a human right not to be tortured, enslaved, etc, because that is a goal we all agree on. But you don't have a right to have other animals take care of all of your needs when they don't want to. That would be slavery.

148 comments