Real-world CO2 emissions of cars are 20% higher than indicated. For plug-in hybrids they are 250% higher.
Real-world CO2 emissions of cars are 20% higher than indicated. For plug-in hybrids they are 250% higher.
Today, the Commission published its first report on the real-world CO2 emissions of new passenger cars and vans. The report is based on data collected in 2021 from fuel consumption monitors installed on-board of these vehicles.
EDIT clarifications:
- the article is from the European Commission. This thing comes from a serious study based on hard facts and data.
- Check this comment by @wooster@startrek.website, who reported the data.
- Note that plugin hybrids are still better than pure ice, but they were expected to be much better.
It's not a typo: plug-in hybrids are used, in real word cases, with ICE much more than anticipated.
In the EU, fuel consumption monitoring devices are required on new cars. They studied over 10% of all cars sold in 2021 and turns out they use way more fuel, and generate way more CO2, than anybody thought.
The gap means that CO2 emissions reduction objectives from transport will be more difficult to reach.
Thruth is, we need less cars, not "better" cars.
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When I saw the headline, I thought this was clickbait, since the headline and the linked article avoided quantifying how much CO2 the vehicles said they consumed vs the real world usage.
If you dig into the cited materials, it turns out it wasn’t hyperbole.
That said, I still consider it extremely poor form to omit the information the study was centering its argument around.
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Honestly I thought that, being the article on the European Commission website, was a good enough sign of trustable source.
I added a disclaimer at the top of the post hoping to make things more clear
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To be fair, I’m really just judging the EC’s article writer. Not the trustworthiness of EC or the study itself.
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I dont get it. The numbers are all less for the hybrids
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They are a less than full gas vehicles, but they output considerably more CO2 than they are tested and marketed to output.
Many people buy them because they believe they are a green form of transportation based on the marketing. But the real world pollution they cause makes them not very green at all.
This is a significant report, especially when you consider the source.
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Today I learned there are apparently diesel hybrids. Huh.
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Regardless of how it is powered, bringing thousands of pounds of steel and plastic everywhere you go to get to work, grocceries or other daily needs, is ineffecient.
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But most importantly, it spends about 95% of its life parked. Such as waste of resources and space. I hope actual automatic cars in the future will allow people not connected to public transportation to avoid needing an individual car.
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Often parked on prime real estate, or in a sea of wasted spaces that are rarely ever at capacity, sometimes both.
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It should be noted it's comparing the claim vs the cars actual co2 output, which for PHEV is laughably incorrect in real world use. I'm amazed a class action hasn't been made againts these car companies. They knew what they were doing and its nothing short of environmental terrorism levels of deceit.
That said, Plug in hybrids are still 'better' than petrol or diesil cars for overall emissions. The title makes out they're worse. Which is untrue.
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The reason a class action hasn't been filed, is because it is not their fault. The emissions are measured in a certain way, and that is kinda favorable for PHEV-s. Of course this is besides the point. The ORIGINAL reason hybrid cars are popular, is because they are cheap to maintain, but pretty good on fuel. The fact that they kinda cheat these newer emission tests, is more of a side effect.
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That said, Plug in hybrids are still 'better' than petrol or diesil cars for overall emissions. The title makes out they're worse. Which is untrue.
A title is a title. I added a clarification at the top post. I have mo intention to deceive anyone
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Wouldn't plug in hybrids largely depend on use? If I only use gas with it twice a year, it's got to be better than if I'm commuting long enough to need the gas motor five times a week, right?
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A key issue with many PHEVs is that the "P" is in name only. Their batteries are generally too weak to work without the ICE engine at least some of the time (eg high speed up a hill or when partially discharged). In my view this is quite deceptive, as many people would think (and many PHEVs allow) that you could effectively use the PHEV as a "pure" EV for the majority use case.
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Wow I knew hybrids were not that great and WLTP would be off, but 250% off how is that even possible? There's practically no difference between plug-in hybrids and standard cars.
Edit : So people are buying plug-in hybrids and just not charging it- why ?
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At least where I live in Europe you (used to?) get subsidies for buying hybrid cars or EVs. So people would buy them for the discount and then never actually charge them 🤷🏼♀️
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how is that even possible?
Several reasons I can think of.
- the lab tests are highly flawed.
- the marketing is downright misleading.
- people aren't charging them.
- people are using them in ways that don't take advantage of the battery.
Hybrids are really only "green" when you use them for very short trips at low speed. In that context, any other form of transportation will be better, in my opinion.
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Yes, I think EVs in general (and especially hybrids) are a way to justify not investing in alternative modes of transportation for cities.
As for users you feel good about being "clean", but in reality you are still polluting 10x as much as with public transportation.
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PHEVs should be able to charge off of regenerative braking. You don't need to plug them in to get benefits from the hybrid system. The stated fuel economy for the vehicles assumes that there will be a certain amount of electric-only travel. The article doesn't say it, but most PHEVs advertise that you can use the battery for most of your day to day travel, and only use the ICE when you are making longer trips. So the takeaway from this article shoud not be "hybrids are bad, just keep making gas cars" but instead should be "testing and assumptions about the fuel use of these vehicles needs to be changed to more accurately reflect reality."
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@Showroom7561 @ByGourou any other form of transport is better than any form of car ;)
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Edit : So people are buying plug-in hybrids and just not charging it- why ?
One possible reason could be that they picked a plug-in hybrid over a pure EV in the first place because they had nowhere to charge it.
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Just my personal 2 cents of owning a plug in hybrid : i sometimes drive with an empty battery because the range is 50km max, and my landlord refuses to allow me to install the infrastructure to charge at home, even if i'd pay 50% of the costs. There are also people parking in electric parking spots without charging OR being an electric car, denying me of charging publically. Its a whole mess..
That said, 40% of all km i drive are full electric.
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I feel like this is a large portion of the missing puzzle pieces. The difference between real world and advertised ICE stats are somewhat padded, but not significantly. You'd expect the hybrids to have a similar degree of discrepancy, but it's wildly out of range of expectations. It may simply be that the manufacturers are giving idealized stats, since while testing they would have access to their personal charger in a laboratory environment. But in the real world, owners cannot guarantee working/accessable chargers or even that they can charge at home, which would dramatically impact the results of this study.
Or at least, I'd assume that's the case in the US. I don't know what EU's charging infrastructure is like, where the study was preformed.
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I'm guessing a lot of people don't use them optimally. They used them how they originally used a ICE car. Unfortunately, that means they are lugging a large battery around for no significant reason.
I would also query how the hybrids are being designed however. There should still be a saving due to efficiency gains, since the engine can run at optimal RPM most of the time. The values scream that the manufacturers have over optimised for performance, rather than efficiency.
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Looking at the above data, these hybrids do reduce fuel consumption. About as much as you would expect from a non-plugin hybrid.
It is rather that the WLTP figure vastly underestimates the fuel consumption.
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In germany we had subsidies for hybrid company cars, so companies bought hybrids. But: If employees would charge these in their home garage, they would pay for the electricity. If they get gas, the company pays. So they are practically just regular cars with a ton (probably literally) of extra weight. Unfortunately there's barely a single law related to cars in germany that makes any sense (apart from just randomly gifting tax payer money to car companies). It's like gun laws in the US. The area-wide corruption is immense.
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Edit : So people are buying plug-in hybrids and just not charging it- why ?
Why is the open point. Maybe the range is not enough for the majority of owners, maybe they are too lazy or maybe gas prices are too low to justify the charge?
I really hope there will be a follow-up study trying to answer this point
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I have both a full EV that can be charged on any standard power plug and a classic gas car. I barely ever use the gas, and only use the EV because of how much cheaper it is. I would've expected everyone to do the same, but maybe as you said gas is not expensive enough for most people so they don't care.
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In my country all the electric charge companies made a cartel and they're selling the electricity at 1000% markup.
Nobody charges at 1 euro per kWh
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Because you buy one thinking you'd charge it more often. Maybe it's slower to charge at home than you anticipated, or maybe it's just more convenient to go to closest gas station than charging station - also WAY faster.
It's like when you buy a box of chocolate thinking you'd just eat few pieces
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There are a lot of possible avenues to cheat.
Obviously, every local law will be different, and What I’m saying below may not apply to certain areas. If auto manufactures are allowed to use labs of their choice for emissions testing, they may be able to engage in lab shopping to find a lab that will give them more favorable test results. If auto makers are required to use a government laboratory, it’s possible that in the process of developing the laws for testing, they’ve managed to work with lawmakers or regulators to ensure the tests are conducted in such a way that they get more favorable results than they would see in a real world scenario. -
And that's just tail-pipe emissions. PHEVs have much greater production emissions due to their batteries too.
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hahahahaha
first the plastics recycling, now this
They always only ever lie
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Shot: the plug in hybrids are still lower in tailpipe emissions in concrete terms than than the ice vehicles.
Chaser: the plug in hybrids have real world tailpipe emissions that are almost exactly what the ice vehicles are rated at
Morning after: this study doesn’t include the emissions from production of a new car
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Well... the hybrid car thing makes sense. How many places are built to have charging stations everywhere you'd park your hybrid car?
If you mange to afford buying/leasing/renting a hybrid car, that doesn't mean you can afford to build out a charging station at your own home. Hell, you may not even be allowed to modify your existing property even if you could afford it.
So you wind up driving an electric car that is kept charged by a lawnmower engine burning gas instead of driving an electric car, charged from the power grid, with an emergency gas powered generator to increase your range or compensate for when the batteries' capacity degrades.
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that doesn’t mean you can afford to build out a charging station at your own home.
You you suggesting its normal for people to not have outlets at their house but own electric cars? Haven't outlets been standard for decades in homes?
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How many feet of extension cord will a home owners association let be seen drug out on the front lawn?
What if there are no exterior outlets? You going to leave a window open with an extension cord fed through it? Maybe fine if you live somewhere without neighbors... probably a good way to get robbed otherwise.
What is the exterior outlets were shittily installed and are aren't rated for whatever your particular flavor of electric vehicle you purchased?
Live in an apartment complex? Not on the ground floor? You gonna bust out somebody's window to get to their outlet?
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I don't think your assumption is right at all. Me, and I sure fucking hope 99% of other people who bought a PHEV, charge at home. Because if not, why the fuck did you massively overpay for a car when you could've gotten the ICE version?
My car is basically full electric for 99% of the time because 50 miles of electric range I get is plenty for daily driving in city traffic.
I just don't want to waste money on full electric because somehow they are still treated and priced like luxury cars despite most of them being equivalent to cheap cars in build quality and materials.
I also want to avoid the hassle of spending too much time at charging stations during long trips because I have kids and just want to get places. And please don't tell me there are a ton of charging stations without wait. I constantly see and hear from my friends who own electric cars how much of a pain it is especially during holidays. And I live in CA, easily one the states most prepared for electric cars.
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Seems to be a repeat of the misleading (and outright cheating) scam that diesel emissions turned out to be, although presumably not quite as egregious as what VW did. Although perhaps part of the hybrid problem is that people aren't actually charging them electrically most of the time, but that is also why hybrids are such a pointless half measure (even more than electric cars are a half measure compared to reducing car dependency).
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TBH, the most astonishing reveal from the study for me was that Hybrid owners weren’t charging their vehicles. Unfortunately, the why isn’t covered in the study since it seems to just be hard math and statistical analysis.
Are they just not plugging in at night?
Too frustrated with the battery draining too quickly?
Driving too far for the battery to meaningfully contribute between charges?
Is the extra hardware mass making the ICE that much less efficient?
Laziness from having to fill both the battery and the gas tank?
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Plug-in hybrids are relatively new. At least in Europe most newly purchased cars are leasing and company provided cars. These companies probably thought it would be nice green-washing to buy hybrids. They probably also do not have sufficient charging infrastructure at their parking-lots and do not refund their employees for the electricity costs when they charge at home (or rather it is too bureaucratic for the employees to bother with asking for a refund). Which results that these cars are mostly used the same way as regular non-plugin hybrids, which only the relatively modest fuel savings these provide.
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Considering the stories I've heard from mechanics about people having their car towed in because they ran out of gas I think people don't realize they need to plug in their plug in hybrid.
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A lot of plug-in hybrid owners took the state support to buy an ICE with a smaller gas tank. And it also can drive electric, but nobody does that.
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You don't have to charge a hybrid to get the benefits of the electric motor. It can charge from regenerative braking. That being said, plugging in a PHEV will maximize the benefits of the system vs relying on regenerative braking alone.
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EVs only recover about 90% of the energy used I'm braking with regenerative braking. That means they don't even recover all of the energy needed to slow the car down, which certainly not enough to get the car back up to it's previous speed.
All this to say:
Regenerative braking doesn’t add significant miles to your driving range.
So relying solely on regenerative braking isn't going to have any meaningful impact on driving range.
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Man, I'm gonna fuckin join AVALANCHE.
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I own a plug-in hybrid, and wouldn't really recommend one over full electric. That said, I average around 2.1L/100km.
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Really? We have one and love it. What doesn’t work for you with yours?
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I don't have anything that I dislike in particular, I just feel that by trying to be two things, it does both poorly. My main criticism is the massive weight, which is inefficient. You're either lugging a heavy (quickly emptied) battery around, or a heavy motor and tank of gas that you're not using (I keep mine at a quarter full for that reason). I'm not saying don't buy a plug-in hybrid, I'm just saying that I'd recommend going fully electric instead.
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This is why we can't rely on greener cars. Does anybody know the figures for motorcycles?
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Counter-argument:
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That's genuinely beautiful
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I went looking for this a year or so back and I couldn't find any big study that looked at the lifetime emissions of motorcycles compared to cars, but the road emissions by themselves are generally about as bad because while there are fewer emissions from motorcycles, the emissions that exist are worse because the smaller engine doesn't burn the fuel as completely. The thing is a huge chunk of a car's lifetime emissions come from manufacturing, which I suspect makes motorcycles better, but again I never found that comprehensive study.
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8 billion people. Every product made creates emissions. So the question here isn't whether fewer cars will lower emissions, but whether whatever replaces them will cover the needs of 8 billion people without increasing emissions as much as cars do or more.
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We created that thing already. Its called actvive transport and transit. Walking and cycling are nearly emissions free. Transit is still far more effecient than private cars. We just need to build a society that prioritizes these as much or more than cars.
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The change has helped the areas in which it was implemented. However, in part, it has also shifted the traffic into other areas instead. It does work, but not fully. To change society and pursue it wholeheartedly, profit must be removed as an incentive or at least make it inconsequential. Otherwise this consumption/production treadmill will never stop speeding up until it breaks.
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I remember being so disappointed in "plug in hybrids" when I saw the range on electric they had. For me my work commute I'd almost get noth8ng from the electric side of.
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Hydrogen car, when?
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Already exists. Extracting hydrogen is (currently) incredibly energy intensive.
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Hydrogen makes no sense in personal transportation. It's too dangerous and inefficient.