11mo ago

Mozilla says Apple’s new browser rules are “as painful as possible” for Firefox

www.theverge.com Mozilla says Apple’s new browser rules are “as painful as possible” for Firefox

Mozilla is “extremely disappointed.”

Mozilla is unhappy because the use of browser engines other than WebKit will be restricted to the EU, forcing them to develop two different apps.

For an independent browser like Firefox, managing two browsers is not easy, so it can be forgiven that this could be seen as almost harassment.

Also, the fact that the use of browser engines other than WebKit is limited to iOS means that the use of WebKit is still forced on iPadOS, which also increases the effort for Mozilla.

Source: https://iphonewired.com/news/746093/

Technology @lemmy.world

Mozilla says Apple’s new browser rules are “as painful as possible” for Firefox

www.theverge.com /2024/1/26/24052067/mozilla-apple-ios-browser-rules-firefox

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Firefox @lemmy.ml

Mozilla says Apple’s new browser rules are ‘as painful as possible’ for Firefox - The Verge

www.theverge.com /2024/1/26/24052067/mozilla-apple-ios-browser-rules-firefox

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Technology @lemmy.world

Mozilla says Apple’s new browser rules are “as painful as possible” for Firefox

www.theverge.com /2024/1/26/24052067/mozilla-apple-ios-browser-rules-firefox

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147 comments

I'm fucking enraged man. I hope we can regulate these assholes.
- There is a very easy solution. Don't buy apple.
  
  That's not a solution. It's a way for you to avoid the problem. It does nothing to help the millions of people who are already deeply invested in the Apple ecosystem.
  
  People should fully own the computers they buy, regardless of which company they buy from.
  This means root access and a replacable primary bootloader, let alone just being able to install apps not on a curated market (what Apple calls sideloading). macOS and Windows both manage to allow root access, and so do certain Android devices (and obviously other OSs as well). Replacable primary bootloaders are more rare, though, especially in ARM devices due to efuse-based secure boot in the CPU that is impossible to turn off. There's only one phone I can think of that allows for replacing the primary bootloader (Shift 6mq).
  We shouldn't allow for artificial restrictions placed by corporations on devices they sell, because as we have seen time and time again, companies copy each others' restrictions, especially Apple. Same goes with game consoles, IoT devices, Smart TVs, etc. And before you mention the potential for piracy, DRM is an artificial restriction placed by corporations, and should also be removed from devices.
  Anything less means that you don't own the device that you paid for.
  Apple is clearly attempting to comply with the EU DMA in bad faith so that they can maintain as much control over their users and app developers as possible.
  
  I don't. Many people do. To protect their very clear monopolistic goals, we need to protect consumers from this stuff.
  
  boycotts barely work, and doubly so when the company has a legion of faithful fanbois and its among the biggest corporations on the planet.
  
  I’d like to add that even if you sell apple. The only other alternative is android and they have their own set of issues.
  For me, an iPhone that allows sideloading would be a huge step towards perfect.
  
  Why do you hate consumer protection law?
- And that's coming from someone who has "applelover" in their username. They fucked up big time by pissing off even their most loyal fans.
  (/j)
  
  Honestly, I don't know how many normies this will upset. Pretty much only techies follow this and the people being annoyed by it might just blame the app developer and not Apple. Time will tell
- I mean, this is basically malicious compliance. They did everything in their power to follow the letter but eschew the spirit of the law. Let’s hope the EU has teeth and keeps applying pressure.

I like how just about everyone I who’s looked at this is basically like, “fuck apple”.
There are a few fanboys, but they are way less common than usual.
I’m hoping Apple picks up on this and reverses course.
- They won't care, they have the consumerist crowd locked down. The crowd that buys dozens of Stanley Tumblers so they have one that matches any outfit. There might be more of us who care than there used to be, but the average iPhone buyer doesn't care and Apple knows it.
  
  I am so out of the loop on Stanley tumblers. People are obsessed with them, I don’t get it.
- I mean, I’ll take a stab at speaking for Apple fans, and in fact developers. (I’m an ex-employee.)
  There are a lot of things we like about the user experience on their platforms, and we appreciate their general interest in privacy while not engaging in the dirty data mining / advertising business of Google and Microsoft. There is a polish on their platforms that is best in class.
  But I don’t believe any of us actually support the App Store lockdown situation. It’s probably the biggest black mark on their record. I think they got it right on macOS, requiring the binaries to be notarised (signed digitally) in such a way that malware can be blacklisted. This is a useful security feature. But developers are free to distribute however they want and third party stores like SetApp and Steam coexist happily with the App Store.
  100% of their arguments about keeping the App Store as the sole distribution chain are bullshit because macOS is the proof. It’s pure rent-seeking behaviour.
  
  But the privacy is just a facade, right? Like with that recent scandal about the government requesting push notification info, Google of all companies was actually only handing it over with valid warrants while Apple was giving it to any law enforcement who asked.
  
  There is a polish on their platforms that is best in class
  As someone who was an Android user and tried switching to an iPhone, I see lots of weird bugs and behaviors I never had with Android. Sure, the OS is slightly better, and rarely crashes, but everything else is a little bit worse.
  Literally every Google app is better than Apple's. Be it Google maps, keyboard, mail, calendar, etc. But because they aren't made for iPhone, there's all kinds of little bugs, mostly visual/UI related.
  And then there's all these nonsensical decisions that make my life harder. Hotspot can't run with wifi on, you can't record your calls (very useful when talking to banks, government, etc.), can't even arrange the icons in "home" screen to fixed locations or make them smaller.
  I finally figured out that when Apple fans talk about polish, they just mean it looks pretty and feels high-end. Which, sure, I can concede that. But that's not what I actually care about.
  Anyway, rant over, sorry to take it out on you!

My wife has an iPad and one of the things I hate the most is that you can't install adblock extensions into Firefox on it like you can on Android. Which is a thing that has made using the browser on the phone wayyyy more enjoyable.
- I use DNS level blocking for blocking ads on iOS devices.
  
  Yeah not comparable. There is so much cosmetic blocking and also many sites will just load ads from the same domain.
  
  Which service do you use (if any) for it? Personally I use controld but I hear NextDNS is the most popular
- The Orion browser for iOS/iPadOS supports both Firefox and Chromium extensions, however, the support is quite buggy and limited. Nonetheless, a valiant effort by Orion devs.
- I use AdGuard both on my Android phone and iPad. Not quite as good on the iPad because Apple doesn't make it easy, but definitely makes a huge difference. For me, $30 a year is worth it and you can use it on 3 devices. I got sick of the ads in apps that were downright disturbing in some cases and reporting them didn't do a whole lot. Browser extensions can do a lot more to tidy up the experience, but I will take what I can get.
  https://adguard.com/en/welcome.html
  
  You can pay a lifetime licence for 10$ https://apps.apple.com/fr/app/adguard-pro-adblock/id1126386264?l=en-GB
  
  Why are you paying per year? You can get lifetime adguard licenses for cheap from stack social.

Apple always had been painfull for any third party devs. Also Vivaldi worked several years to create a browser which works in this iPhone thing, and now, after it's release, Apple admits Chromium.

So hear me out. What if we took $6.9M out of the CEO bonus and dropped the Mozilla AI project?
Maybe that would be enough to hire a maintainer or two for Firefox iOS port?
Maybe that could work?
I don't know, just an idea. Crazy.
- Yeah, that will fix Apple being total utter assholes. Giving them what they want always fixes everyone being assholes.
- I don't know what you coul have against mozilla ai?
  
  Mozilla: ignores years of customer complaints and requests
  Mozilla: creates new product nobody asked for
  Fans: "What's wrong with Product?"
- Mozilla has a budget of around 200 mil for software development, so the 7 mil are probably not enough. Not defending the high pay though.
  Also, AI Integration into browsers could very well be a deciding factor for mainstream users when choosing a browser. So having some expertise around e.g. running LLMs privacy preserving on client hardware for page summarisation could pay off. Llamafile for example, is something cool coming from the Mozilla AI stuff.
  
  page summarisation
  I see a future where the journalist gives the LLM two sentences and asks it to spit out a 2000 word article out of that.
  The user then asks the LLM to Tl;Dr the article down to the two core sentences.
  Same probably for business email. Jane goes "send an email to Joe saying no." The LLM goes "dear joe.. we appreciate.... your valuable conteibution.. unfortunately at this time... cannot consider... looking forward... thanks for .... whatever". Joe then clicks the "summarise" button and gets "Jane says no".
  Amazing how far we've come.
  
  Firefox is the only browser with local website translation. Literally the extension is the only app on Android that does that.
- oh yeah put the onus on mozilla, nice one
- Yes, but also require Apple to expand its EU software to people not in the EU
- i used to think that, but I cringe at myself. I'm not sure what other managers there are being paid, and in the CEO's defence, she was at Mozilla since the beginning, even through their bad times, pre-firefox days, and through their chrome days.
  That being said, if its 6.9m dollars though, that is getting a bit high..

genuinely fuck Apple for stealing khtml and driving it into the ground

Why not stopping developing apps for Apple systems? Fuck them.
- Mozilla doesn't have the sort of leverage to make an impact by abandoning apple devices. Firefox has an incredibly low market share and this could push people to other browsers. People tend to use the same browser for stuff like bookmark and password syncing, so abandoning ios could have larger consequences.
  
  Yeah I understand, but if Apple is fucking up with our development, not only for Firefox, for any developer that makes apps for phones... why keep following their abusive rules? When I say "stopping developing apps for Apple" I mean, any developer that dislikes the abusive rules of Apple and fees. If we abandon the system, the iOS users will need to move to Android or other systems that are more friendly for developers.
- The issue is that larger companies which could have an impact (Netflix, google, Meta) already have special deals in place that bypass these rules
  
  https://newsroom.spotify.com/2024-01-26/apples-proposed-changes-reject-the-goals-of-the-dma/
  And it comes down to a fundamental question: Will the European Commission follow through with its intent to right-size Apple’s abuse of power? Or will the DMA be nice in theory, but in practice, have no substantive meaning for most developers?
  From Spotify.
  Update: https://www.theverge.com/2024/1/29/24054943/microsoft-apple-app-store-dma-rule-change-response Xbox (Microsoft)
- Because then Apple fanbois will complain and tarnish Mozilla's/Firefox's reputation
  
  Developing a crippled port that is limited/restricted by design due to Apple policies would not really help Mozilla’s/Firefox’s reputation anyway. Apple fanbois will complain ether way.
  If those fanbois want a Firefox app on Apple systems, it's Apple the one they should complain to.
  
  They already do that, they can say whatever, they will be isolated with their shitty Apple products and if they want decent browsers then they will need to use decent systems. Apple can't abuse of their power and force us to follow their abusive rules, they can't even have a decent UI desktop. They are so bad programmers.

The fun life of an Apple customer.

how do I de-apple my iPhone?
- Don't purchase & start using it from the first place. Save yourself plenty of resources. Focus on something else productive & valuable.
- You could try to jailbreak but honestly you're better off not having an iPhone
- Direct a heat gun at the area right below the camera for 10min or so. The demon should be gone.
- You can't. At least not like you can on normal phones. There is no way to unlock the bootloader to my knowledge
- Why would you want to do that?
  Genuine question.
  Because if it is the hardware you want to keep and not the software, there are good android based options. And if what you want is control over the software, there are also good android options. I'd recommend a Pixel phone, and you'll always have the option to de-goggle it completely with either CalyxOs, GrapheneOs or similar ones.
  
  I was more poking fun at how ios users who let an ultra mega corp holds all their data and actively cripples privacy efforts while touting a false sense of privacy as marketing, never ask to de-apple their iPhones

Their lack of choice is why I'll never buy Apple products.

This is the best summary I could come up with:
Apple’s new rules in the European Union mean browsers like Firefox can finally use their own engines on iOS.
Although this may seem like a welcome change, Mozilla spokesperson Damiano DeMonte tells The Verge it’s “extremely disappointed” with the way things turned out.
“We are still reviewing the technical details but are extremely disappointed with Apple’s proposed plan to restrict the newly-announced BrowserEngineKit to EU-specific apps,” DeMonte says.
In iOS 17.4, Apple will no longer force browsers in the EU to use WebKit, the underlying engine that powers Safari.
“Apple’s proposals fail to give consumers viable choices by making it as painful as possible for others to provide competitive alternatives to Safari,” DeMonte adds.
Epic CEO Tim Sweeney called the new terms a “horror show,” while Spotify said the changes are a “farce.” Apple’s guidelines are still pending approval by the EU Commission.
The original article contains 285 words, the summary contains 142 words. Saved 50%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
- I really hope the EU gives them the middle finger and tells them to apply the law in good faith, not like this.
  Still can't do much for markets outside the EU though. Countries like the US, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Australia should implement similar laws. That would force Apple's hand.
  
  Well... It may be arguable that limiting the dev base to Europe only is damaging for Europe users thus regulators may make a comeback.

Apple does not care and will never care about open source other than the bits it has to care about because they're a part of Darwin, their core.
They're a company offering a particular "experience" and open source products do not fit into that model well at all. I use apple phones because I'm partially blind and for a very long time the accessibility story on Android was a screaming nightmare (I'm told it's got better) but I have no illusions that they're anything other than a profit seeking MegaCorp with all that implies.

Apple, Google, Microsoft all worthy of a massive boycott.

Honestly, Mozilla doesn't even have the resources to maintain a proper WebKit-based version of Firefox on iPadOS, when a large amount of the work is handled for them by Apple. (See, for example, the fact that it still does not support multiple windows, a feature that has been available since 2019.) It would seem a mistake for them to try taking on a much larger load of work when they can't handle what they've already taken on.
- It's not like they'd develop a new engine for iOS. They already have one which can now be used for iOS as well -- but not everywhere.

147 comments