11mo ago

I just don't pay enough attention to politics .

Me after creating a meme and starting a political debate on memes sub "what have i done".I HATE MY CREATION for the record.

82 comments

See those jackasses with swastikas, they hate you. They’re the furthest right. See the people with hammers and sickles or black flags and maltovs? They hate each other almost as much as they hate the rich. They’re the furthest left.
In reality the right wing wants lower taxes, more police, more military, less corporate legislation, and to regulate your sexual and medical decisions every moral panic. They also tend to vote how their preacher tells them.
The left wing wants to regulate businesses, fund public works and social services, try to create a more equal society (the right wants hierarchy), and generally supports freedom except when used for bigotry. We also like unions. The further left you go the more you like unions.
Obligatory Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.”
- The left generally wants lower taxes too, just for different people. The left thinks the poorest should pay no taxes, while the right thinks the richest should pay no taxes. (Obviously I’m being hyperbolic, but that’s generally how it plays out.)
- What if I want no taxes for the lower class lower taxes for the middle class and small business but much higher taxes on the upper class and large corporations, a very strong military, less but stronger corporate regulation with more teeth, to fund public works and social services with the taxes we bring in, a free and equal society with no hierarchical systems or bigotry, freedom of speech and strong privacy laws with certain restrictions on speech (calls to violence, etc...), very strong unions, a near complete elimination of wall street, and a fair justice system that doesn't target minorities as prey? Also, guns are fine for self defense in my opinion. Which side do I fall on?
  Edit: So if you will read my posts below I talk about how going against groupthink just makes you enemies of the group. Then the group started down voting me down below. I'm really not worried about fake internet points. I just want to make sure that everyone that downvoted me is well aware that my point is well and truly proven. A difference of opinion is not welcome. Even, and especially, if that opinion is, "Stop letting the group think for you. Examine each issue as a separate issue and make fair and reasoned decisions."
  
  How it sounds to me
  
  What if I want no taxes for the lower class lower taxes for the middle class and small business but much higher taxes on the upper class and large corporations
  Left.
  a very strong military
  Typically right, but plenty of examples of marxist-leninist states with strong militaries, such as the USSR or China. And on the less authoritarian side you have the YPG in rojava who was very effective at fighting the Islamic state.
  but stronger corporate regulation with more teeth
  This one's a little confusing, would probably need more clarification.
  to fund public works and social services with the taxes we bring in
  Left.
  a free and equal society with no hierarchical systems or bigotry, freedom of speech and strong privacy laws with certain restrictions on speech (calls to violence, etc...), very strong unions, a near complete elimination of wall street, and a fair justice system that doesn't target minorities as prey?
  Left-libertarian/anarchist.
  Also, guns are fine for self defense in my opinion.
  At least in America, the guns issue is typically viewed as a left vs. right issue, but there's plenty of folks on the far left that are in favor of guns (socialist rifle association, redneck revolt, John Brown gun club, etc).
  Karl Marx even has an often cited quote on guns:
  Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary
  Which side do I fall on?
  Pretty much left. You're certainly left of the American Democrats. Pretty much the only thing stopping you from being a full on leftist is you don't seem to be opposed to capitalism itself. Therefore, I'd say most of your positions sound like they fall under social democracy.
  
  I think you may want to look into syndicalism actually.
  
  Almost left wing, could be completely left wing depending on how strong you want unions to be, ie do you still want Capitalism or are you full-on syndicalist.
  
  Pretty leftist my dude. Embrace it
  
  Liberal, but you'd have to give up on guns or find some pro-gun liberals to hang out with.
- Is it even possible to describe the left end the right and not make it sound like the right are the bad guys?
  
  Not if you're trying to be honest
- nah

Bro, the left and right are originally French, not American, and they're applied worldwide throughout various systems.
Long story short, in the original National Assembly in 1789, people with similar opinions ended up befriending each-other and sitting nearby during the session, so at one point you had all those who thought the revolution ought to go further (give more rights to more people, decrease the power of the king or outright depose him, etc...) sitting on the left, and all those who thought the revolution had gone to far already and ought to slow down sitting on the right.
Of course, by this metric, the very concept of a republic is far left, but the idea is that no matter what system you're in, once it's established enough, wanting to maintain the status quo is being a centrist, wanting change that puts more power in the hands of common people is left wing, and opposing such changes or wanting to undo them to "restore order", often concentrating power in fewer hands, is right wing.
This "power" I speak of was at the beginning just political power, but through the 19th century, the focus shifted towards economic power. Therefore, since the late 19th century, a right wing policy a policy that favors the rich, and a left wing policy one that places restrictions on the rich and welfare policy for the poor to decrease inequality. This is why liberals were initially left wing, but neoliberalism is now mostly regarded as a wing ideology. These are policies that want a weaker state, but more rights/powers for rich individuals.
- I am very surprised that there is only one legitimate reference to the original coining of these terms from the beginning of the French Revolution so far in this thread asking what these terms mean.
  
  It's not exactly relevant to a modern conversation, even if the history does highlight the Overton Window and how being the "left" or "right" is still different from being a "leftist" or a "right winger" as left or right wing is usually relative to local politics and "leftist" vs "right winger" refers to broad ideologies.

If in America then it's all right wing.
- my biggest pet peeve in the world is when people equate liberalism (a right-wing ideology) with the left, solely because the american baseline is so far right compared to europe. the closest shot the US have had of pivoting to proper left-wing is bernie sanders (at least as far as i'm aware, and i'm too scared of further rotting my brain by consuming more american politics)

Some people enjoy walking on the wings of passenger planes. For some reason Americans are really hostile about which wing is better to stand on while in flight.
- Ah good for them . I personelly prefer sitting in the centre to balance everything .
  
  You like to sit in the middle of the alley? I prefer a seat personally...

Left wingers want collective ownership of the Means of Production, right wingers want individual ownership of the Means of Production.
What follows from that are generally a bunch of interconnected, intersectional views. Leftists tend to oppose hierarchy, rightists tend to support hierarchy.
- .
  
  To expand, left wingers analyze current events as a historical process and as an actionable future plan, considering current ownership itself unjust regardless of historical context, though certainly not made any better when combined with it. I don't really see many making a mockery of their own position.
  Right wingers do falsely claim that anyone can arrive at the top, they typically do so through some failed idea of meritocracy.

I can't stop recommending the youtube channel what is politics. Seriously: it's perfect if you're represented by this meme.
It's a simple series of videos that explains in digestible terms what right and left are and why everyone should care.
- Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
  what is politics
  Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
  I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.

There's a hockey joke in there too.
- There is ?
  
  Something about the Forwards. The Left Wingers and Right Wingers if you will.

Left wing and right wing are like political vibes. They only make sense when you have more understanding of what the issues are. What they mean can change over time.
I think it's easier to understand what the individual issues are and why people want them or don't want them. Then you need to figure out what your ideology is and pick what things you want to support to further your political goals.

It depends if you're watching them from the front or the back. So it can be quite confusing.

Those who wank off with left hand are left wingers and those that wank off with right hand are right winger. And none of them are gonna care about your privacy or freedom.
- that helps, i guess im in the center then, since i care about the privacy and freedom

Political "debates" are useless, but I always like to watch different conceptions from different countries.
When I see USA politics right-wingers have some speeches and actions that left-wingers have in my home country and vise-versa.
Like, leftwingers in my country usually attack a former rightwing president because he supposedly fomented immigration, specially illegal immigration. (Although, here rigwingers also have more hate against the inmigrant, just like US) 1 (sorry for the language, didn't find an english version of it)
Or a former leftwing president that mobilized our army to Haiti to protect their democracy 2
Same with labels: In US "liberal" is a left wing label, in my country is a righ wing one.
Same apply in other countries, like I see Spanish news when "republicans" are the radical ones, usually left-wing, because they oppose monarchy, and the "republican" flag is a left-wing symbol for spaniards.
That's why political labels are pretty useless too. Republican means literal nazi or revolutionary against monarchy depending where you are lol.

You're probably better off not knowing. This stuff never makes a person happy.
- "you're better off not understanding systems of power that have a huge impact on your lives"
- the more i know the more confused i get

Don't ask, don't tell?

Might be relevant here: https://www.podcast.de/episode/619883332/089-the-myth-of-left-and-right-a-conversation-with-prof-hyrum-lewis
English episode of german podcast

You can just make up a name for whoever you don't like and use it to dehumanize them. "Lib" is a popular stand-in when you don't have even a tenuous grasp of global politics.

In Empire (aka USA) as there is no true opposition, they're the same picture, the same lobbyists and so on

It is better to conceptualize political allegiance by which ideology they support: socialism, social capitalism, liberal capitalism, or fascist capitalism.

Trump and the republicans are right winged. Biden and democrats are the left.
- Thanks fam that's what i wanted to know.
  
  Just be aware that that answer is very over-simplifying things. "Left" and "right" are supposed to signify political ideas, not certain parties or politicians. You could say that Biden is to the "left" of Trump, but most people who would call themselves "left-wing" would consider Biden a "centrist" (between left and right) at best, maybe even skewing right-wing.
  Typical left-wing ideals would be working towards freedom and equality for everyone by solidarity and cooperation, whereas right-wing ideas usually focus around preserving your own privileges by suppressing whomever you consider "outsiders" or "inferiors".
  
  Good for you.
  Now what will the rest of the world do with this info?
- both halves of the USA's two-headed uniparty are right-wing

Left wing = people I like
Right wing = people I associate with my high school bullies

A dumb and sort of wrong version would be:
~~Politically Left: "Society combine for everyone", Politically Right: "Freedom for everyone at all cost"~~
CORRECTION
Unfortunately, left and right are rather coarse terms within the political spectrum. Consider looking for some easy explanations to understand the finer details.
Fun Fact: The emergence of the "left" / "right" distinction in the political sense is attributed to the original seating arrangement at the Constituante, the constituent national assembly of 1789 in France.
EDIT: I hate talking about political stuff. Never a correct answer and every word is scrutinized. I hate it.
- Politically Right: “Freedom for everyone at all cost”
  Lmmfao...
  They don't give a shit about freedom for anyone but themselves (and especially not that of people who aren't white, Christian, cis, straight and abled), their actual motives are having as much power and money as possible.
  
  That doesn't make sense. There are lots of right-wingers who are not in the demographics you listed (the biggest political party in the world to take one example)
- That's not "sorta" wrong, it's hella wrong.
  Left: Dismantle existing power hierarchies with the aim of equality.
  Right: Strengthen existing power hierarchies.
- You are right about most points, but the right is not and never was about freedom, but about cementing a hierarchical order in society.
  It used used to be about Aristocrats in France.
  Today it is about keeping the rich in power and by extension to rile poor people against even poorer people (often immigrants).
  If you look at politics through that lense so many more things start to make sense.
  Old money hates new money.
  Right wing middle class people hate poor people.
  Right wing poor people hate immigrants.
  They want to look down on somebody.

Right and left are an illusion produced by the people who are sucking up the profits of our labour to pit us against each other.
Especially the US two party system seems to be a racket that lets you choose between conservative corpo shills and science denying fascists. All to extract the maximum amount of money from all people involved.
- I think you are wrong to a degree.
  The problem is not that the left is an illusion and more that there just is no left wing party in the US.
  Like you said there is a right wing party in line with most conservative parties in Europe and there is a protofascist party in line with Putin, American Oligarchy and religious extremism.
  That doesn't mean that an actual leftist movement or party can't possibly exist or is a mere illusion.
  The political system in the US is just purposefully designed not to allow a successful party on the left.
  Elections are decided in big parts with money, which inherently favours those with money (and corporations are people in the US for some fucked up reason).
  This is by design and not something that is natural or automatic.
  I guess our positions are not that different, I just wanted to add some nuance.
  
  I agree. We mean pretty much the same. I‘m just saying it different.
  In my opinion the thought of cleaning your own doorstep before meddling in foreign affairs (one argument of the actual conservatives in opposition to fascists) actually makes a lot of sense to me.
  The same goes for treating all people (and even animals, and plants to a degree) the same regardless of anything that doesnt harm others is not an idea of the „radical left“ imo but the opposite is a pure fascist idea and not conservative at all.
  The ideas of what conservative or progressive mean are open to interpretation and using it the way modern populists (others call them politicians) do is just to help them get or stay in power.
  Actually, representative democracy is a problem in that regard. We should go back to direct democracy in a lot of topics. Go back to the normal person educating themselves in national and local issues instead of voting for „the guy“ because they lie anyway.
  That means making time for this education instead of wageslaving 8-16 hrs a day for all mature people on the household. Living with a small family on one full time income is the way it has to be in my opinion. Which partner goes to work or if both so half a day is inconsequential to me.
- This.
  OP, to learn more, try:
  https://truthout.org/articles/fascism-is-possible-not-in-spite-of-liberal-capitalism-but-because-of-it/
  https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/14/liberalism-and-fascism-partners-in-crime/
  
  Words to live by, OP, "scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds"
  Fascism, a far right wing ideology, is often described as "capitalism in decline," and is what happens when capitalism desperately clings to any hope of maintaining itself, normally by calling itself back to some mythologized, fictional version of a perceived golden age.
  Its also worth noting that we use the terms left and right to described to describe relative position within the overton window (the narrow stretch of "acceptable" politics within a given society) of our current politics, as in, biden is left Bush is right, et cetera, but in a larger view of the political spectrum both the democrats and republicans are right wing parties. There isn't an objective defintion of who is left/right, but for a lot of people, the dividing line is capitalism itself. If you support capitalism, you're right wing, if you're a socialist, communist, or anarchist, you're a left winger. If, by some miracle, capitalism were to die out tomorrow and every country was some flavor of socialist the dividing line would change to some new metric, and x would be left while y would right. It's a short hand expression not a hard and fast rule.

Left and right wingers are the people who let all the bad shit happen because they want their football team to win and only care about that.
- Nah, that's moderates and centrists that refuse to actually take a stance because they are privledged enough to benefit from the status quo.
  
  I have a stance. It happens to conflict with both of you clowns. You're all acting like I have to take the package deal when I'm only interested in Internet. Fuck that nonsense. I want the right to bear arms and have an abortion. Let the gays do whatever they like, but why are they mimicking a religion which says they're bad? I want higher tax brackets for the ultra wealthy and domestic spending for 3rd places, but I also think it's a good idea to have our crazy army money because China specifically wants world domination.
  Absolutely NONE of this is "central" or "middle ground" because there is not a fucking polarity to the subjects!
  You're all idiots banging your heads together over stupid shit the ultra rich make up to keep you fucking busy! YOU blind idiots are why we can't have nice things!

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