12mo ago

What can the US do to help Mexico finally stop the cartels?

Politicians constantly talk about stopping the illegal immigrants that are coming from Mexico, but putting a wall has never and will never be a solution since the reason why so many displaced keep coming across the border is mostly to escape the crime, corruption, inequality, and violence of they have to live in their home countries. The worst part is that most of these terrible things is that happen in third world countries are rooted in constant subversion by developed countries, primarily the US. I feel like since we caused this (even if in part) we should help stop it now, even if we didn't publicly admit guilt to save face.

So, how do we do it? Do we straight up invade Mexico and go on a full out war against the cartels like we did against Osama Bin Laden?

If not, why not? And, is there anything that can be done?

I would like to keep things civil. Please, let's keep this respectful as I know this is a tough issue and there is anger on both sides of this issue.

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L E G A L I Z E
Cartels gone overnight. Handle addiction as a medical problem. With legal MDMA, mushrooms, weed and acid, the hard stuff isn't going to be anywhere near as big an issue as it is currently.
- This is true to a certain degree, but the cartel's way out of the bag on this one. They don't just produce/traffic substances, they're firmly entrenched and armed to the teeth. They are not going anywhere, even if you take one of their major cash cows away - they'd just pivot to something else.
  Now, getting MDMA and psychedelics into a therapy setting is something I hope happens very soon, ideally long before anything is fully legalized as I imagine that will be a long time.
  
  I know some people in that industry though in Europe. Legalisation is like game over for them. They move on to other countries.
  Seriously what do you imagine they will pivot to that will have even a fraction of the income?
  
  It'll be like after prohibition. They will diminish over time, but it will take time. They won't throw their hands up and say "gosh golly guess we're all done here". They will still try the black market, there's already reports they're protection racketing legal producers, producing other stuff legal or not but by unsavory means, etc. We should do it but it will take decades for the cartels to diminish.
  
  Maybe in Mexico sure but if the market were regulated and controlled here there would be zero chance that the cartels would be racketeering the legal producers. If they could do that here theyd be doing it already with Oxycontin and Adderall producers. When's the last time you saw mexican brick weed around? Was it a decade or so ago when they legalized all the weed in US states? Imagine that.
  
  They don't need to do it with oxycotin or Adderall right now because there is cocaine, meth, still weed, etc. Take it all away and they will do what they need to to survive.
  
  They probably dont even sell their weed in the usa anymore you would be stupid to do that you can just buy it at significantly higher quality in most states and then even if you are in an illegsl state theres still "THCa" flower. They have to sell that shit somewhere else now. And no, they do make fake pills now laced with meth and fentanyl and they kill millions of people. Theres an approximately zero chance that they would ever be able to control legitimate manufacturers in the united states. If they could do that they wouldnt be pushing bullshit pills that kill off most of their customer base. If you legalize and regulate the drug industry suddenly there is no more cocaine and meth and ecstasy because just like regulsting the weed market did it would take the money for the united states market out of their hands they would have to focus on other cpuntries that would also rather deal with criminals rather than regulate and control these things that people will never, ever stop doing completely.
  
  I don't know if they sell their weed, but they don't need to because they have other things they can sell. That's the whole point. Take it all away (see the word all) and they will do what they need to to survive. They're not going to simply give up on a wealthy market of 350 million people.
  Control? It's not going to be 100% control but that won't stop them from trying protection racketeering or other things. It will be a fight and they will only go down swinging.
  You seem to think in very binary terms of yes or no and can't see the mess or shades of gray, so cheers.
  
  Because I already see the mess and shades of gray that prohibition has caused. It didnt work well for alcohol either and now its what like 60 to 70 years later and wow, no criminal mobs or cartels control the market just rich folks. Also saying "well theyre just gonna do other stuff!!" Isnt making anything I say about regulating drugs and prostitution false.
  
  Human trafficking, illegal gambling, protection rackets, prostitution, etc. All of those are "markets" they are already involved in.
  
  Sure. Grimy stuff. But nothing makes money like drugs (maybe gambling). Legalisation would begin their slide down. Legalise prostitution and gambling too like they have in Oz. Makes it safer for all and effectively removes the black market.
  
  Avocado!
- That doesn't stop the cartels, not by a long shot. Ending prohibition in the US didn't eliminate the organized crime families in the US, it just moved them to different areas of corruption. If it's not alcohol, it's drugs. If it's not drugs, then it's gambling, tax evasion, prostitution, loan sharking, organized theft, and so on and so forth. And without correcting the underlying issues driving alcoholism and drug addiction in the US--particularly poverty--complete decriminalization would lead to huge problems. Has led to huge problems in some cities.
  While decriminalizing drugs would help to a degree, you need to correct the underlying problems that have allowed cartels to amass so much power in the first place, like weak governments, lack of opportunities, and high rates of poverty.
  
  Dude it's 90% of their income - of course it will hit them. They won't disappear but believe me legalisation is the biggest thing they fear.
  
  All I can do is point to how much power the mob amassed in the US during prohibition, and how long they held that power after prohibition ended. Sure, their revenue took a hit, but they moved fairly smoothly into other areas, and corrupted other power structures in order to build and maintain illicit revenue streams. It wasn't until the 80s and 90s that the mob families in NYC really saw significant consequences.
  As an example? Mozarella cheese on pizza. That was fully controlled by the mob for a long time.
  
  Who cares man? Gambling, prostitution, cheese, trash? Those are legit businesses.
  As long they're out of the murder and dismemberment game that's the win right?
  
  Gambling should never be considered a legit business. IMO casinos et al. should be shut down, for the same reason that payday lenders should be beaten to death in the streets: they're fundamentally predatory businesses.
  The problem with prostitution and organized crime is that it's not victimless once the mob gets involved. "removed better have my money" is a threat; you pay the pimp, or you get beaten, and possibly killed. You want to hire an independent escort? I'm fine with that. But significant amounts of prostitution involve sex trafficking, esp. "agencies" that constantly advertise "new girls".
  All of the businesses that the mob--or any organized criminal gang--is in end up increasing costs due to corruption, and involve the threat of violence if anyone disrupts their money. People that try to compete in sectors controlled by criminal groups tend to end up dead very, very quickly, regardless of what the nature of the business is.
  
  "Prohibition…goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes." - Abraham Lincoln
  I get that you personally might have moral issues with gambling etc. but making something illegal doesn't stop it, it just pushes control into the hands of criminals. Want to give me a single instance where prohibition has ever worked?
  If you want to stop cartels legalisation is literally the only path.
  
  but making something illegal doesn’t stop it,
  That's... Not a good argument. Child pornography and prostitution is illegal because it's morally reprehensible, and incredibly, profoundly harmful to children. Same with murder, robbery, theft, etc. By definition, anything that is illegal is going to be done--or controlled--only by people that are criminals.
  Does prohibition stop those things entirely? No, of course it doesn't. But it gives society tools to fight against them in a way that decriminalizing does not.
  
  I think a lot of the issue with your interpretation of this is that you feel like Prostitution and Gambling are morally wrong. But that will never stop people from doing those things. You regulate and control it to get the criminals out like they did with gaming commisions to cut the mob out of the gambling. If a woman is getting paid fairly and chooses to be a hooker (which is how it would be if regulated, no pimps probably just a pre pay at the counter kind of thing) and they are tested regularly how is that not a net positive for society? Less STDs, less rapes, no human trafficking because it turns out that a lot of women would absolutely choose to do that work without a pimp that can and probably will hurt you breathing down your neck. Same with gambling we regulated it and people who choose to do it should be allowed to make that choice. Also, did you know that Cocaine and Methamphetamine are not schedule 1 drugs? This is because the US government manufactures controlled amounts of them for legitimate pharmacutical uses. Google it if you dont believe me. Its funny becuase, the cartel has zero control over that and never will. What makes you think that can't be scaled up and adopted to a wider market? The US government literally manufactures lab grade cocaine and methamphetamine and all kinds of other shit too Ketamine and Opiates and the drug cartels make zero dollars and zero cents off of that process. So to say it can't be done is ignoring facts.
  
  I don't take a stance on either from a morality basis.
  In regards to gambling, I see it as a fundamentally predatory business model that preys on the people that are least able to afford it. If a rich guy wants to blow a million dollars on blackjack, I don't fucking care, that's not my problem. If a poor person is buying $500 in scratchers because that's they're only hope for excaping poverty, that's a problem. Or a retired person that pushes a button as fast as they can on a slot machine, burning through their retirement savings, because that's the only thing that lights up their dopamine receptors anymore. And there's a lot more of the latter two than the former. There are also a whoooooole lot of people with gambling problems, and a person that's blowing all their money on gambling ends up becoming a problem for the people around them, as they are no longer able to take care of their own needs.
  The only issue I see with prostitution--aside from the fact that a not insignificant amount is from trafficked victims--is the public health risks. Given that healthcare in the US is outrageously expensive, there's not a great way for people that are usually working at a near subsistence level to treat STIs. And, for certain STIs (HIV, hepatitis C), they are strongly disincentivized in regards to informing customers, as there's not cure and long-term treatment is deeply burdensome.
  did you know that Cocaine and Methamphetamine are not schedule 1 drugs
  Yes. Cocaine and meth are both schedule II, which is used for drugs with a high probability of abuse, but still have recognized medical uses. (Marijuana is currently schedule I, but I believe that the FDA has been asked to re-evaluate it an move it to schedule III, which would make decriminalization much easier, and would mean that it would no longer be a prohibiting factor for buying a firearm.) Cocaine is--or was--used for surgery in highly vascular areas (esp. nose and sinus surgery) because it acts as a vasoconstrictor. Amphetamines used to be issued to soldiers, esp. pilots, that needed to be alert and focused for long periods of time. See also: Aimo Koivunen. The fact that certain drugs do have legitimate medical uses doesn't mean that the abuse/addiction is not a material problem. Try chatting with anyone that has been prescribed anxiolytic medication, and has tried to titrate their dose down, or discontinue their use entirely (same goes for certain SSRIs, TBH). Yes, drugs are a personal choice, right up until they're functionally not a choice any more because you'll suffer serious physiological effects from cessation. And it's not like the US has a great track record of providing effective assistance for people that want to get cleaned up. Full legalization or all recreational drugs, without also building the necessary social supports, would create far more problems than it would solve.
  
  I do see how the poor person with the scratchers can be a negative for society as a whole, but if you take that freedom of the choice from people many will still choose to do it and then criminals are the only ones controlling it. I think for the prostitution to work (like it does with many tight restrictions in certain counties in Nevada) you would have to enforce safe sex practices and mandatory sti testing for ALL of the possible different ones and this can be achieved with the assloads (lol) of money legalized prostitution would be raking in. As far as the drug conversation goes I pointed that out to show you that drugs can be produced and manufactured and distributed without any criminality involved if you do it correctly. Yes, drug use can affect society negatively and that is why you would use some of the absolute mega fuckton amount of money that industry would be making and require that thr manufacturers themselves (and taxes only on the sales of those goods) are paying for increased treatment and homeless prevention and rehabilitation. I dont think you are considering the obscene amount of money these industries would make if legalized. You use a portion of that money to fix the problems behind it, much like they make tobacco companies do that right now in the us. They did that and slowly but surely tobacco smoking has gone down. Vapes are a bit different but thats another good example of how outlawing something and not regulating it correctly (pods) made the problem significantly worse now we have disposable batteries poisoning the earth because they just can not choose to regulate the things people will do no matter what. It truly dpesnt make any sense to me except from a viewpoint of absolute boot crushing control. Thats the only reason
  
  Prohibition doesn't give society tools, it removes them.
  Take prostitution. Legalisation immediately leads to registration of hookers (blocking most human trafficking), gives oversight to inspectors, forces safety standards, allows for checks on welfare etc.. It also removes criminals from the chain, pimps, violence, drugs etc.. If you do a little research on this you'll see it's the better option. If you are a moral person your imperative should be on keeping all parties safe. And you have to realise prohibition never stops it.
  
  Legalization of prostitution is a problem by itself, because the regulatory costs end up being borne by the sex workers (more on that in a tic). For prostitutes that are working at a subsistence level or only doing sex work occasionally as a stop-gap--which is the majority of voluntary prostitution--that's not going to work. And what do you do, for instance, when a registered sex worker suddenly tests positive for HIV, or hepatitis C? Revoke their license, and then...? Legalizing doesn't eliminate trafficking, it just pushes the prices for trafficked prostitutes down, because trafficked prostitutes are slaves.
  There are definitely harm-reduction models that can, and do, work for sex work, but legalization and regulation--when that regulatory costs are paid by either the sex worker or the customer--will not work the way you think for harm reduction. For the system to work as intended, you would also need things like national single-payer healthcare (...that isn't constantly getting funding slashed by conservatives), and licensing that was both on-demand and free to the licensee, and you would need something to deal with the loss of income if they contracted an incurable STI. (Otherwise they would continue working, which would be a public health risk.) Inspections, compliance measures, et al. could not be a cost borne by the sew worker/clients or else you'd see non-compliance with regulatory measures. Most sex-worker advocates call for decriminalization rather than legalization/regulation because that's the model that moves the most risk away from the sex worker, but you do need to also balance the needs of the worker against the the needs of society to a degree.
  
  You seem to be using the cost of regulation as an excuse against decriminalisation or legalisation of prostitution which i find wild.
  Firstly a slightly higher cost to cover overhead would be fine for most johns if they didn't have to risk jail I'd imagine. I'm also sceptical that would even be needed. My understanding is currently in the US pimps take the majority of what sex workers earn.
  Remember theres also tax revenue generated here so that would easily cover any government oversight...or does in other countries.
  Also take into account that cost of not regulating is far far far higher. It's like the cost of homelessness - it costs massive amounts to a community oddly! The medical, policing, social services etc etc not to mention cost in terms of violence from criminal behaviour, drug addiction etc etc.. At the end of the day it bringing people into society is a far better option for all.

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