12mo ago

What can the US do to help Mexico finally stop the cartels?

Politicians constantly talk about stopping the illegal immigrants that are coming from Mexico, but putting a wall has never and will never be a solution since the reason why so many displaced keep coming across the border is mostly to escape the crime, corruption, inequality, and violence of they have to live in their home countries. The worst part is that most of these terrible things is that happen in third world countries are rooted in constant subversion by developed countries, primarily the US. I feel like since we caused this (even if in part) we should help stop it now, even if we didn't publicly admit guilt to save face.

So, how do we do it? Do we straight up invade Mexico and go on a full out war against the cartels like we did against Osama Bin Laden?

If not, why not? And, is there anything that can be done?

I would like to keep things civil. Please, let's keep this respectful as I know this is a tough issue and there is anger on both sides of this issue.

116 comments

Legalize all the drugs. Stop providing them a market.
- Just a reminder that, while drugs are the cartels' biggest income, it's not the only one. They'll just move onto produce and other goods like avocados and lemons. This was news years ago but I'm not at the computer to link.
  
  For that it would help to properly design and enforce laws against tax evasion, money laundering and criminal financing. But i am afraid the rich around the world would rather have another world war than pay fair taxes and be barred from doing business with murderers.
  
  Good. Let them justify their private armies to the accountants when police protection for legal operations is free.
  
  In that case subsidize the techniques to grow that stuff domestically.
- Including stuff like fentanyl and tranq and allow anybody to buy it?
  
  Here's the thing - most people aren't actually interested in trying hard drugs. The people who are, will probably obtain them irregardless of legality. Given that, what is the harm in mass legalization? It keeps money out of the cartels and back into the community via taxation; it ensures the drug is pure and safe to consume with no additives; and for the individuals who afterward decide it is not for them, they can get the help that they need without worrying.
  
  Yes. The same as alcohol.
  
  No one wants that crap. When I did drugs I wanted pain pills but they kept cracking down, so here we are with worse stuff.
  
  I don't support that. I support a FDA regulated opiod pill that has known dosages. It will get you high and if you OD posion control knows exactly what to do. Even forgetting about human dignity for a moment, it will save us all money to do it this way. If someone really wants to spend the next 18 hours of their life on a couch zonked out they should it do safely.
  The pill will be in certain stores, on the outskirts of town. It will be taxed. You will have to sit through a video on exactly how you are to use it safely. You can camp out in a safe usage site and have a locker for your keys. At least in my ideal version of it.
  As expensive as this all is it is nothing compared to what we have now.
- They would rather the addicts all die from Fentanyl laced bullshit than do that. They make way too much money with it being illegal

Maybe instead of invading the US should stop arming cartels? https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2022/02/stopping-toxic-flow-of-gun-traffic-from-u-s-to-mexico/
Maybe the US and their DEA should stop funding and working with cartels https://world.time.com/2014/01/14/dea-boosted-mexican-drug-cartel/
https://jacobin.com/2023/03/us-mexico-war-on-drugs-garcia-luna-calderon
Maybe the US should stop israel from selling tools like pegasus which are used to hack and attack journalists https://web.archive.org/web/20240116033152/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/18/world/americas/pegasus-spyware-mexico.html
Or maybe the US should stop doing coups across latin america and putting dictators in power (too many to link)
- But but but muh free market
  
  "Hey, I'd like to buy some drugs"
  "NO! NO FREE MARKET FOR YOU!!"
- This is a very simple take that fails to capture any of the nuance or depth that these stories require for context. It's rage bait.
  First link: contains the allegation by Mexico that the US is largely responsible for flow of illegal guns across the border. Case dismissed by federal court.
  Second link: cited an investigation by a local Mexican newspaper that appears to have deleted the story. No other coverage of this claim except from Business Insider that copy and pasted this article. Each one has broken links to the original newspaper story. My understanding of thr allegations are that the US policy preferred one large cartel instead of numerous medium sized ones, so the DEA backed off Sinaloa to successfully focus on the smaller cartels, and then turned their attention back to Sinaloa.

L E G A L I Z E
Cartels gone overnight. Handle addiction as a medical problem. With legal MDMA, mushrooms, weed and acid, the hard stuff isn't going to be anywhere near as big an issue as it is currently.
- This is true to a certain degree, but the cartel's way out of the bag on this one. They don't just produce/traffic substances, they're firmly entrenched and armed to the teeth. They are not going anywhere, even if you take one of their major cash cows away - they'd just pivot to something else.
  Now, getting MDMA and psychedelics into a therapy setting is something I hope happens very soon, ideally long before anything is fully legalized as I imagine that will be a long time.
  
  I know some people in that industry though in Europe. Legalisation is like game over for them. They move on to other countries.
  Seriously what do you imagine they will pivot to that will have even a fraction of the income?
- That doesn't stop the cartels, not by a long shot. Ending prohibition in the US didn't eliminate the organized crime families in the US, it just moved them to different areas of corruption. If it's not alcohol, it's drugs. If it's not drugs, then it's gambling, tax evasion, prostitution, loan sharking, organized theft, and so on and so forth. And without correcting the underlying issues driving alcoholism and drug addiction in the US--particularly poverty--complete decriminalization would lead to huge problems. Has led to huge problems in some cities.
  While decriminalizing drugs would help to a degree, you need to correct the underlying problems that have allowed cartels to amass so much power in the first place, like weak governments, lack of opportunities, and high rates of poverty.
  
  Dude it's 90% of their income - of course it will hit them. They won't disappear but believe me legalisation is the biggest thing they fear.

A. Consume less cartel produced drugs.
B. Stop giving the cartels guns
Although there are about 78,000 gun dealers in the U.S.,[56] ATF suggested that gun shows, thefts and private sales may be a greater source of trafficked Mexican guns than licensed dealers.[34] Gun smugglers are known to coerce[57] or pay U.S. residents or citizens to purchase semi-automatic rifles and other firearms from gun shops or gun shows and then transfer them to a cartel representative.[9][58][59][60][61][62] This exchange is known as a straw purchase.
- Honestly, we shouldn't consume drugs at all, but to each their one I always say.
  However, I completely agree that the ATF should change their policy and prohibit ALL gun sales without a US identification and simple background check at least.
  
  You're gonna have a hard time defining "drug" in a way that all people agree with.
  Presumably you don't mean prescription medications, though of course many of them are abused. Does caffeine count? Coffee is linked to many measurable health benefits. What about alcohol? No health benefit and a clear risk of abuse, but there's also thousands of years of social history, and I think plenty of people would say that, at least sometimes, the benefits of a great night out with friends or meeting new people and developing new relationships is more than worth the cost.
  Then you have things like hallucinogens, which generally have only minor health concerns and were mostly criminalized for political reasons. Marijuana is literally a plant, and while the health profile is mixed, at least for some people, it's without a doubt a net positive. In comparison, and especially relevant to Mexico, there's heroin, which is incredibly addictive and dangerous while also funneling tons of money into the cartels.
  I'm not trying to be pedantic here, but more to make the case that any kind of policy or position on "drugs" as a whole is way too widely scoped. There are too many different substances with drastically different social and medical costs and benefits. Probably no one should ever consume heroin or meth. People with a risk of schizophrenia should absolutely not touch LSD, but people with PTSD may genuinely benefit from MDMA. Alcoholics should never touch alcohol, but your average person having a few drinks on a Friday night out with some friends probably isn't making a bad decision.
- Stop taking drugs?
  Smart, effective gun control in the US?
  So, we theoretically could stop cartels, but never, ever will.

Decriminalize the use of currently illegal drugs, and increase penalties for the dealing of illegal drugs. Then increase funding for the medical treatment of addiction. And homelessness. And food insecurity. Too bad none of that will ever happen, since our stupid government prefers to solve all of its problems with cruise missiles.

Snort less coke, mainly.
- Demand will never wane. It is human nature. It's like yelling really loud "stop being hungry humans!" (well kinda, hunger is not a good analogy but the opinion is that drugs are a fundamental flaw with our human design. Just asking to stop does not work. Also, jailing those who do doesn't help any either.
  The attack has to be financial. Outsell them. Legalize, tax and monitor. Make it a health concern not a law breaking issue. If it is no longer profitable to export, cartels will hurt and weaken and that is how this very powerful organizations are taken down. Take their money away.

I remember Mexico pleading for US to legalize marijuana. Mexico did but cartels still had the massive American market.

Cartels don't care about drugs, they care about making money.

The obvious answer: Start producing locally
So, how do we do it? Do we straight up invade Mexico and go on a full out war against the cartels like we did against Osama Bin Laden?
That sure went well, huh? Afghanistan sure is a better place now! Oh, wait...

Universal healthcare in the US if breaking bad is right.

From what I understand, the US is actively investing in the Mexican economy right now in order to both shift our manufacturing reliability away from China and also to provide economic stability in Mexico to shift power away from the cartels. Please take this with a grain of salt as I do not remember where I read this and cannot provide a source. But from what I recall, the long term plan is to setup manufacturing in Mexico for the above reasons with the bonus of reducing shipping costs, time, and shipment vulnerability. I really hope it works, because if you think about it, it just makes sense all around. If we make Mexico our biggest trade partner, we both benefit in big ways. And the more options people have in Mexico for jobs, the less they have to rely on the cartel.
Aside from that, I used to agree that legalizing drugs would take the market away from the cartels, but then you have to remember that the cartels have since diversified. So stop eating Haas avocados??? I don't know, I'm just a graphic designer ¯(ツ)/¯
- That's exactly true, I can only imagine it isn't widely published because the GOP would rather rant and rave about TEH IMMAGRINTS!! and take any opportunity to say the government isn't making things better. Meanwhile, a Republican President (you know which one) would rather sell even more production to China with no checks whatsover in exchange for a very cheap bribe.
  
  I think what kick-started this was all the tariffs that were implemented under the Trump administration. It led corporations to move their manufacturing to other countries and in the process, it was generally discovered to work best to move manufacturing to Mexico. Now under Biden, they are trying to actively encourage moving things from China to Mexico.

"do we straight up invade.. like we did...." Do you know the mess that actually comes from there? And How much it had enforced extremist behaviour in other countries.
"What US needs to do?" Start by taking care of your own issues like guns, they will inevitably end up in dark market serving cartels and others, it would also stop massive killing happening in your own country at the same time... Priorities to education and healthcare, Stop invading countries (can't remember last US invasion which was actually useful...), start supporting smart guys instead of bad/extremist guys so they don't get more powerful (exemple: Masoud instead of Bin Laden in Afghanistan against Russia).
- Had to scroll way to long to find this. Funny to see how Americans think imperialism is a solution.
  « Best way to help Mexico ?» stop capitalism and switch to a social system.

While it's true that the U.S. is the most convenient market for Mexican cartels, it's worth knowing that it's far from the only one. Mexican drug cartels have major connections to markets across the globe. and that Mexico specifically is the de facto administrator of drug trade in the western world. For example, a drug bust in India found fentanyl that had been purchased in Mexico from China. . That's not the sort of arrangement that the US can ever hope to do away with through domestic legislation without undermining the autonomy of dozens of states around the globe.
While removing the cartels' access to the American market via decriminalization would certainly take away a lot of funds, let's not act like black market operations don't exist in legal markets anyway.
In this hypothetical situation where the US is responsible for Mexico's drug cartel problem (which I disagree with), I don't think the road to success ends at the US legalizing drugs.
- This is true, another example is Ecuador who is fighting an incredible surge in gang violence because the Mexican cartels are now operating in the south American country.
- The US is the key source from war on drugs legislation and still a major fighter against efforts to decriminalize and legalize drugs. If it would change its attitude, it would open up political space for other countries that typically follow suit to the US. Also it would serve as evidence that legalisation with good regulation is better than criminalisation.
- When there's a clean supply of drugs green-lit by a superpower like the US, wouldn't it naturally be exported to other countries? Sure, the cartel would still exist, but for the drug trade specifically, better availability of safe, quality drugs internationally would reduce international demand for cartel drugs, no? Wouldn't other countries start manufacturing said drugs to import into the US as well, making it easier to fill the black market with regulated products?

There are definitely some good ideas in this thread, I would like to know, however, where I can go to escape the crime, violence, inequality, and corruption in the United States?
- Canada? IDK
  I guess we keep going up right? /jk
  But seriously, it's very concerning how much worse the corruption in the US is getting
  
  Definitely. It’s built right into the system. Fucking lobbying. How does any rational person let that continue? We need the zombie of Teddy Roosevelt to run in ‘24.
  (Is there a high demand for process managers with decent AI skills in Canada?)

The US could stop buying the drugs or stop supplying the weapons. The CIA was heavily involved in the creation of the cartely so the US should stay the fuck out of it. Whenever you try to fix stuff you make it worse. Mostly because you only act like you try to fix it while at the same time looking how to profit from it.

Legalize drugs, stop the war on drugs from Nixon era. It should be treated as a health problem, not a criminal one, and once they're at least decriminalized the cartel's profits would PLUMMET.
Ofc USA has probably the strongest propaganda system and has incentive for the cartels to continue existing, so I don't see that happening unless some change that's major and unexpected happens.

I would also add "Repeal Section 1" to this list. Let Philip Morris, Phizer, and their ilk deal with the problem. The cartels think they have power, they have no idea.
- Never heard of this, do you have more information on this section 1?
  I'm going to search it up myself, but if you have a good source, please share a link.
  
  I meant schedule 1. My brain is much today. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK538457/
- Wtf is Section 1??? That's not specific enough.
  
  Ah, my bad. Feeling like crap today. Schedule 1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK538457/

Legalize and regulate the drug trade and prostitution. Would overnight make those activities significantly less harmful and you would be able to put all that blank check DEA money into treatments and going after child traffickers which is the only market that shouldnt be regulated or exist. Wow. Problem fucking solved. Let them keep their avocadoes and shit. Boom, we just solved billions of dollars worth of problems and can actually use these things to better society for ourselves and the people that the cartel terrorize with this shit. Almost like, they dont want the problem to be solved.
- A thing to remember is that legal prostitution is still a vector in the human trafficking trade. Even where it's legal, women are forcefully relocated to those nations and forced to work.
  Most of the prostitution issues would be handled, but you would still need to account for it.
  
  You would have to make it legal everywhere or at least as many places as possible. The world followed the US lead on the drug war Im sure they could follow our lead with this too. Especially if you could demonstrate how it would hurt these criminal operations. If prostitution is legalized in 70% of countries, you just destroyed 70% of their human trafficking operations. Yes there would be the remaining 30% of countries but they already are experiencing that the demand isnt going to go up 70% in those few remaining 30% of countries.

The majority of illegal immigration into the US has nothing to do with walking across borders anywhere. It’s people overstaying their visas, and they got to the US on a plane. The whole Republican thing about immigrants marching across the borders is one of the most fantastical stories they’ve made up to make democrats look bad.

Probably nothing. Mexican citizens will have to rise up and it won't be without loss. It will legit be civil war. You can't stop people from wanting drugs.
- You could regulate the market for that demand that will never go away though. Legalize drugs and prostitution, problem 80% solved
  
  The cartel is probably far beyond drugs and prostitution only these days. Arms trafficking, human trafficking, etc would remain largely viable methods of funding.
  And the cartels are smart enough that they'd just shift pipelines and continue to be a large issue.

Bankrupt them by legalization/regulation/discouragement/taxation of all drugs and then flood money into R&D of any product they move into. Are they messing with Avocado growers? Spend ten billion developing ways to grow them in Florida.

People are posting all kinds of ridiculous solutions that they know are impossible. Legalize drugs. Use less drugs. The cartels run more than just drugs! They run fucking avocados!! And electronics!! They have diversified. Never mind that it’s politically impossible to do anything like that. It can’t happen.
Invading Mexico and shooting the cartels CAN happen. It gives money to the defense industry, which itself is enough reason that it could happen. It’s probably even in the USA’s best interest to try and de-corrupt Mexico (never mind that this would be a bloody mess with huge loss of life). My point isn’t that it’s a good idea, it’s that it’s a solution that could actually happen in real life.
- Heres an idea, reguate the drug and prostitution trade and let them keep their electronics and avocadoes and shit. They will take a major hit financial wise and be forced to be merchants selling Avocadoes and electronics
  
  You know they’d still be shooting people, right?

Let's not pretend that the border patrol (including the wall where it makes sense) is not part of illegal immigration the solution. Any country should be able to control who enters its borders.
As for cartels, drug legalization in US will go long way. Investments into Mexico economy is another path. Cartels, are not ideological enemies like jihadists/terrorists. Give them opportunities to earn money safely and more profitable in legal ways and they will disappear.
- I absolutely agree that we need to have fences to control immigration.
  I also agree that investing on Mexico is a great idea and I hope it grows.
  EDIT: Well that's fucking wierd, there was a whole chunk of comment that I had written but then deleted and my Voyager app decided to partially undelete. Never seen that one but my phone has been acting very sus today. Apologies for the confusion.
  
  what the fuck?

We can only hold the problem back as long as Mexico isn't vigilant enough on them. If I was president, I wouldn't invade Mexico but I'd definitely be suing them (and then maybe use the money to pay off national debt; what Mexico has been doing surely makes them indebted/owe us, right? Right?)

Full scale invasion and death penalty

116 comments