Tesla is banned from driving schools because of new turn signals

Replacing physical controls with touch buttons continues to be an incredibly dumb idea. Luckily several other manufactures who hopped on the trend are realizing it was a bad choice.

Is nobody gonna mention this horrible KITT steering wheel?!? That damn thing is dangerous.
- Yeah round wheels are not a fuckin style choice. It’s so you can grab it anywhere in any situation. This steering wheel looks fuckin deadly
- They also don't ship with the yoke by default anymore, the default is a regular round one and have been for a while.
- I am a Knight Industries 2000 with a 1000 megabits of memory and a one nanosecond access time.
- Ever seen what real life F1 car steering “wheels” look like?
It’s great for Tesla, for one reason - modularity.

If your input/control has a physical button, that immediately needs independent wiring, assembly steps, A THOUGHT OUT PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT PLAN, another BoM item to build the car/widget, and usually markings that limit its use for other functions (present and planned).

Tesla can bury controls and change interfaces as much as they like on the main touchscreen, or even add new features. It’s still trash for driver usability except when parked for all the obvious reasons, but hey they get to ‘push’ new features over cellular networks as they’re developed. Y’know, instead of selling a complete product in the first place.
- It’s great for Tesla, for one reason - modularity.
  
  Not really as far as the touch controls on the steering wheel goes. The icons are static and can't be changed, so their functionality is kind of tied to the icon.
  
  As for configuring additional controls for them, it's exactly the same as if they were physical buttons, it's all a wiring harness going to the computer either way, what that computer does with the input signal is not any less configurable for a physical button. The limiting factor is the static icon, not whether it's touch/tactile.
  
  In regards to selling incomplete products, this is unfortunately not even limited to Tesla. All car manufacturers release several updates and bugfixes for new cars, they just can't send them OTA, they need to get them in the shop. My colleague's VW ID4 has been in the shop for no less than 3 SW updates to fix various bugs and add basic features such as battery preheating for DC charging, it fucking shipped without that!
As a user experience designer, we were having this discussion 15-20 years ago.

I’m so glad everything we brought up at the time was completely ignored. Warms my heart.

For those that don't want to read the article:

Tesla is going with buttons on the steering wheel instead of a stick to the left of the wheel

Tesla is going with buttons on the steering wheel instead of a stick to the left of the wheel

Its even worse than that. The buttons are smooth surface (like a touch screen) with haptic feedback. These are truly a horrible idea:

If I had one of these Tesla cars I'd look into retrofitting the stalks back in.
- If you buy a Tesla at this point, you deserve to be stuck with it.
- They might get in trouble with EU laws if they do it here as well...
- Holy shit that's worse than how the article put it
- If this catch on, maybe 3rd party Bluetooth/USB stalk will be a thing.
- That doesn't sound like it'll be legal in a lot of countries.
- Up for right and down for left. Yeah, that makes fuckin' sense. Did they take their inspiration from the keyboard on the Apple 2GS?
  
  It would have been smarter to zip tie the turn signal switch assembly from a 1980's motorcycle onto the steering wheel. At least on a motorcycle switch left means left and right means right (and center is cancel).
- retrofitting the stalks back in.
  
  Tesla is going to sue you for 50000 :-)
Wtf, seriously? I've tried using media buttons on the steering wheel during a turn. It's not reliable in the slightest, because it's a moving target.

Does the non circular steering non-wheel never go past 90 degrees or something?
- I once accidentally dialed 911 from my steering wheel phone buttons while pulling a turn. Surprised the shit out of me and the dispatcher didn’t sound like this was the first call of the type. This is a fucking terrible idea.
- Tbf you are supposed use the signal before turning wheel
- You wish but it’s not drive by wire. You steel to turn in multiple times in sharp angles. Of the ratio were to change relative to speed it would make sense but right now it’s just plain dumb.
- Not sure about the older teslas, but the cybertruck steering is way more sensitive, so you shouldn't need to turn it more than 90°. And the buttons on the wheel are at least normal clicky buttons now, instead of touch sensitive areas. Which is less bad, but still pretty bad.
  
  My old peugeot even has an extra stick behind the wheel for the radio control, and it's the best UX ever invented.
- What? You'd be hitting the turn signal when you're going straight. Do you drive a BMW or something?
In Norway, you have to indicate your exit in a roundabout by activating your turn signal, and he found it difficult while turning the steering wheel, which you have to do in a roundabout. A driving student would fail their test if they don’t activate their turn signal in a roundabout in Norway.

He said:

I tested the Model 3, and noticed that I lost both focus and direction in roundabouts. It’s not directly life-threatening, but you run the risk of both driving on curbs and other cars if there are two lanes.

After posting his findings in a group for driving schools, he was met with agreement by many other instructors who said that they experienced the same issue and the risk is much higher with students.
- It's like car features that have been around for 70+ years are the way they are for a reason.
- People who actually know how to signal in a roundabout are a rare breed. Dunno how it's in other countries but the German rules actually make sense: Don't signal when entering. There's exactly one way to go, so why would you. Don't signal when driving around the roundabout as that's straight ahead (even if it's a circle). Do signal before the exit you want to take, this is for the benefit of people waiting to enter (or maybe those behind but only on 2-lane roundabouts). As a corollary: If you signal while you enter you're pining straight for the first exit... but honestly avoid it too many people signal wrong so it's better to not play fast+loose.

Tesla’s reasoning for going away with a method universally used for signaling turn for decades is that it enables them to remove a physical part, the stalk, and it believes activating a turn signal will soon be unnecessary with the advent of self-driving.

Why the hell do billionaires keep laughing in our faces? I swear every time one of them or their companies opens their mouth, it's like they're making fun of us, the poor people.

"We care about your privacy" — (they don't) "a turn signal will soon be unnecessary" etc.

a turn signal will soon be unnecessary with the advent of self-driving

That's like not including a stick for the manual transmission, because the automatic one is just around the corner.

I wish I possessed this kind of optimism in my daily life :D
- I enjoy driving stick, but stick will likely not last forever. We will not be able to burn fossil fuels for that much longer in the grand scheme of things. Electric vehicles usually have a single speed transmission, so there are literally no gears to change. Perhaps there may be an alternative fuel vehicle that still has multiple speed transmission, in which case stick could still exist, though how many car manufacturers would make them?
And worse is that people have been complaining about the lack of buttons and knobs for some time already.
it believes activating a turn signal will soon be unnecessary with the advent of self-driving.

Okay, but self driving hasn't happened yet and still faces significant problems. Removing a turn signal for this is like smoking constantly because you think cancer will be cured in the future.

Plus it breaks one of the unspoken rules of new designs. You never take away functionality, you only add it.
Man, the other day I saw an entire row of prime spots free in a packed parking lot... "electric vehicles only" parking.

So rich people parking... Cool. This feels great.
- Get a used leaf and park there.
- Where I have driven the chargers are always in the furthest corner of the carpark

The new Tesla Model 3 should be banned from the whole of Europe until they put the indicator stalk back. It is virtually impossible to safely and legally traverse a roundabout without it.

How do people indicate without it? Is the car supposed to automatically turn it on once it senses you leaving the lane?
- It has little buttons on the wheel for left or right instead of a stalk. Problem is when you're going through a roundabout you're twirling the wheel around so it is almost impossible to to know where the buttons are at any given point in time. A stalk stays put, the buttons are anywhere depending on where the wheel is at. I think this video demonstrates it most clearly - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBFxbKTEWu8
- In the article it says they replaced it with force touch buttons but the driving instructors all found the buttons to be disorientating and dangerous on roundabouts whilst trying to turn the wheel. The stalk makes for a mich more fluid and less distracting method.
  
  Tesla believe that no turn signals will be needed once they perfect self deiving cars (likely never....)
- What the fuck is the point of an indicator after you’d already started the action. That light ain’t indicating any more about the driver than the fact that they bought a Tesla after 2022, and that tells you everything you need to know about them.
- That's just too late to signal...
When I drive roundabouts I keep my hands on the wheel in the same spots so in relation to my thumb, the turn signals are in the same spot?

I think if the wheel wasn't a yoke shape, it'd be different because I might just put one hand on top, but in this case it works OK.
- Since the yoke forces you to keep your hands on the same place relative to the button, presuming you're keeping your hands on the wheel
- Give it another few years and I think all Teslas will use the new steer by wire in the CT and the problem will go away anyway.
  
  Edit: maybe few is generous, whenever the next major refreshes happen after a few years.

Tesla’s reasoning for going away with a method universally used for signaling turn for decades is that it enables them to remove a physical part, the stalk, and it believes activating a turn signal will soon be unnecessary with the advent of self-driving.

Spit my drink up a bit when I read that.

Meanwhile Teslas are quickly building a reputation of being impossible to repair, so replacing an industry standard component that never breaks for a digital system is a great way to keep the title.
will soon be unnecessary with the advent of self-driving.

by next year, they said for the umpteenth time this decade.
- Might as well get rid of the brake lights while they're at it

Leak of Tesla's next-gen Steering wheel:

What? Physical controls? It'll be a touch screen.
- No no, the steering wheel will be in the touch screen.
You can grip a lot more of it, so it would objectively be an improvement.
PLEASE, give us the sounds, too! :-)

I didn't realize Tesla's even came with turn signals. They must be hard to find because they never get used.

I swear to god Tesla drivers are going for the worst drivers award.

Just let your fucking car drive itself if you cannot.
- Tesla was all like "hold my beer" to the BMW club.
The Cybertruck definitely has them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B75R6sN0obE
- Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
  
  https://www.piped.video/watch?v=B75R6sN0obE
  
  Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
  
  I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
To be fair, they were just following the trend of BMW and Mustang cars
Tesla's even

Odd too. Or did you pluralize with an apostrophe? If it's the latter, you're sentenced to repeat the third grade.
- Imagine being this condescending about grammar on an international forum.
- Words matter not if understand you.
- Imagine crying like this because someone's phone autocorrected.

Yeah, it's not designed with roundabouts, (i.e. road infrastructure designed with logic and common sense) in mind.

It's not designed with any common sense in mind. They just figured they could a) cut costs and b) make the vehicle look "cleaner", because Musk and the people who work for him are intellectually incurious morons who refuse to learn why things are designed the way they are before trying to reinvent them.

The thing about breaking the rules is that if you want to really do it well, you have to understand why those rules exist in the first place. That's hard to do when you start from the position of just assuming that you're smarter than everyone else.
- i am not sure they even kept the cost down since they had to reintroduce the option of normal steering wheels, this just another case of Musk thinking it looks cool so it should be, but then done poorly because they don't have the engineering expertise to do it properly like lexus did it
  
  This is just another case of Cybertruck shit.
It was designed to cut costs and hope fanbois would think it was innovation. It's so dangerous a change it should be banned in countries where drivers are expected to properly indicate while traversing roundabouts.
Cuz that's the only place you want to signal intent to other drivers?
- Well, in a roundabout how else are the other drives gonna know you turn right?

Tesla fucking up traditional driving controls only make sense if their self-driving system is working so the driver has no need to touch the steering wheel except in rare case. How good is Tesla's full self driving these days?

It regularly kills people. It can't be used on a lot of road types (but people still do because Tesla makes no effort to prevent it). It's still marketed as Full Self Driving despite the fact that Tesla has stated on the record that it is, and I quote, "Not capable of driving itself."

They're trying to have their cake and eat it too. Any time it benefits them, they claim that their cars are completely autonomous vehicles powered by the most advanced AI. Any time they get their wrists slapped, they claim that it's an assistive feature like cruise control that cannot and will not ever replace the human behind the wheel.
- It regularly kills people
  
  Could you link an article saying so? I couldn't find anything with a quick google search about people being killed by Tesla FSD
  
  Edit to add: this fairly recent article https://insideevs.com/news/655983/tesla-full-self-driving-beta-crash-stats-revealed/ says they're pretty safe.
Full Self Driving is still in beta stage.

AI DRIVR has good content on Tesla FSD if you're actually interested in knowing how good it is.
- No, I'm actually interested to know. Are most Tesla owners activate self driving during their daily commute? Tesla doesn't sell their vehicle here so the only times I actually see a Tesla are in car shows.
- They say it's beta but beta would imply that it's at least somewhat close to ready, which it clearly isn't even after being in "beta" for a long ass time.
- Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
  
  AI DRIVR
  
  Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
  
  I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Even if it were ready, what proportion of buyers spend the extra $12k to get self-driving?
- If FSD was truly autonomous, or an excellent level 2 system?
  
  Truly autonomous, at 12k, it would have unlimited demand. Production would be the only restraint.
  
  Edit: Tesla might even prioritize sales with FSD or only make FSD cars at that point and rake in the profits.
- About 1 in 5, though recent changes to price and the widening of the full self driving beta will have changed that since the stats were released in 2022
Tesla say it crashes enough to deploy an airbag about one fifth as often as human drivers (once per 3,200,000 miles versus once per 600,000)

So safer than the average driver, presumably less safe than a safe driver
- Be wary of cherry picked data.
  
  The average human driver has a car that's five years older than the oldest model 3. This means five years more age on various safety equipment, five years more primitive collision avoidance systems, cars without stability control, etc.
  
  The autopilot system only engages in ideal circumstances. Poor visibility, poorly marked road, bad weather, all scenarios that are high risk that autopilot wont touch that also cause a lot of human accidents.

I am more concerned about why the Witcher 3 is featured on the car's screen. Does it double as a PC?

Edit: Spelling

Yea, fof models X and S, they have a discrete GPU and can run steam.
- I assume the GPU is intended to be used by the autopilot AI?
- ... What?
- With what OS?
  
  I thought that was cloud streaming.

Tesla has the highest accident rate of any car brand. And Tesla intends to remain number 1 in that regard

Rapid acceleration, with your eyes pointed a center touch screen. What could go wrong?!

They are unsafe in every situation, not just on roundabouts.

Style over substance, and a ugly style at that. Of course lots of people are gonna love it and say it is the best thing ever.

Hey just like web and software design.
lots of people are gonna love it and say it is the best thing ever.

Kind of funny reading this in a thread filled with a bunch of tripping over each other trying to show how they hate Tesla the most.
- The Fediverse does not represent the real world. There is big anti-corporate and anti-Elon bias here. Most people just don't give a shit.

While in the EU Teslas were already "banned", if you want a proper cat B license, and not just a cat B(78). If you take the test in a car with automatic transmission you get a code 78 license, with which you can legally only drive automatic transmission vehicles.

Is the EU mostly manual transmissions?

In the US, seeing a manual transmission these days is somewhat rare. I used to work at a car dealership's service department as a valet, and most of us younger guys who'd never driven a manual before had to get someone else to drive it whenever one showed up. (That happened maybe once a month or less.)
- Manuel transmission used to be the norm. The last couple of times I rented a car/got a loaner at the mechanic, I was asked if an automatic would be OK. I have met people who avoid automatics altogether. Probably because they're unsure of how to drive them. TBF the first time I test drove an automatic, the first stop I made, I was glad to be wearing my seat belt, as I was used to use left foot, push that pedal hard and then brake... My wife and I were almost climbing down from the dashboard after that.
  
  When I said earlier that manuels used to be the norm, that's because of the emergence of EVs and PHEVs. Our EV was our first car with no clutch.
  
  Sooo after writing that boring drivel above, I decided to look it up on the most used second hand car platform. Turns out the about half the cars registered as pure ICEs are automatics. But then sampling the search results it's evident that a lot of the cars on the first page, have been registered wrong, and are in fact hybrids. So I don't have a solid figure. I've loitered the sales floor of my mechanic for 30mins, while my car is in for diagnosics. Looks like about 3 out of last 20 or so ICEs I've looked at are automatics.
- I live in the UK, I've only ever driven manuals. I know one or two people with automatics, wouldn't fancy having one myself though. I feel like the manual shift gives me more control.
- Yes Europe is mostly manual. You pay a heavy premium to get a car with automatic transmission. Anecdotally, I bought a Skoda ~5 years ago and had to pay ~20% more for automatic transmission than manual.
- Had a quick look at used cars here.
  
  https://www.ooyyo.com/france/used-cars-for-sale/c=CDA31D7114D3854F111BFB6FAA651453/
  
  Seems very much dependent on which country you're in. France seems 50/50, Germany a lot more Automatic, Belgium prefers manual. Been to Iceland a few times and that is mostly automatic. The UK is mostly manual.
- I was even told that my insurance would be lower because manuals were harder to steal because so few people can drive'm.
- At least in my country and in the middle of the EU, manuals are still more popular than automatic ones. Usually because no one really wants an electric cars (due to lack of infrastructure and high price), people just get the basic petrol cars with manual transmissions.
- Nah, automatic are common.
  
  The reasoning is, if you know how to drive manual you also know how to drive automatic, but not vice versa.
- I'm an American living in Denmark. Everyone here knows how to drive them even if their current car is automatic. They are becoming more popular, though.
Used to be, but the transition to mostly automatic is happening as we speak

they are the most advanced company in cost-cutting. They will put everything in 10 sub menus on the screen instead of costly buttons. And the people are confused, they see big screen they think cool. But having metal physical buttons and crowns with haptic feedback is just on another level 🤤. Especially those crowns where theres a silent click that you feel with every turn. Feels so fricking good damn.

Why is The Witcher featured on the Tesla screen?

The center screen is basically a fully functional tablet (video streaming and all), in addition being the the only console in the car. Tesla has tried to differentiate themselves with this. I personally do see some appeal, particularly as most cars have absurdly under-powered infotainment systems that simply shouldn't exist. If one is going to include one, the menus should at least scroll smoothly and screens load quickly.
- The menu controls on the screen are snappy and load as quickly as you'd expect from a regular phone/tablet. Miles ahead of all other manufacturer's which indeed always seems to be slow as hell.
  
  Web browser and Netflix/Disney+ are still fucking ridiculously slow on the "older" though. It's been significantly improved with the new hardware in the model s/x and 3 highland refresh, but still not good enough IMO.
If I remember correctly, you can play witcher 3 in a Tesla. (My bad, I didn't read the comment above)

Yikes, that is incredibly dangerous. Hopefully, they get recalled to fix that issue. No turn signal stick is going to cause a lot of accidents if people are unfamiliar with the car or are spinning the steering wheel and pressing the wrong button (or no buttons, because it's too difficult).

Can we just ban them entirely? Horrible cars.

But you can watch Netflix on it!

🙄

But not disney+ because you bought a car from a manchild.

Sometimes I need to disable the limiter, which happens to be a button in the same position as Tesla put the turn signal buttons, while in a turn, and it's just impossible.

You need to disable the limiter mid turn? Are you trying to power slide?
- Why else would you buy a rwd car
- Coming out of a 30 zone onto a roundabout, then 50 from then on, but by the time I realize I forgot to disable the 30 limit it's already too late. It's merely an annoyance, but I can't imagine the same scenario with the indicators in the same spot.

The comment about roundabouts is the same for Australia. You wait a roundabout entrance, with your indicator telling people what you intend to do on the roundabout, and that indication stays until you are ready to leave the roundabout, which you are then required to indicate left (unless you were already indicating left!).

Having moving buttons on the steering wheel is an absolutely absurd idea. Not just for indicating, anything important (I dont mean volume control for the radio, or phone answer button) should never be on a rotating object, where it can be inaccessible or "not where it should be" in a time of need (or required).

That's a regional thing - I was very confused when I lived in QLD and that's how people were driving. In Victoria everyone indicates the final direction before they enter the intersection (eg indicate right before entering if you're taking 3rd exit, indicate left if you're taking first exit).
- I think that is what I said.
  
  But on exiting we will have to indicate left. so if I'm taking the 3rd exit, I am indicating right, until just before I get to it, where I then change to left indicate to say I'm exiting. Even if you are going straight (so not indicating) you are still require to indicate left when about to exit.
  
  Its less meaningful on a 3 or 4 road roundabout, but when the roundabout has 5 or more roads, or maybe even a double roundabout (There is one here, and its an accident hotspot!!) then indicating your leaving is very important.
  
  Pretty sure that this road rule in a national rule, not per state. But I know that some places do not enforce the exit indication.
- Yeah if a roundabout is small - single lane, 2-3 exits, 10m or less in diameter - you can get away with doing this (indicating your final direction).
  
  Once they get bigger - bigger diameter, multiple lanes, more exits - its safer to indicate your intention to enter and exit the roundabout.

Does anyone remember K.I.T.T from Knight Rider in the 80's?

Same steering wheel! Haha

But K.I.T.T. actually delivered on the full self driving part.
- Hahaha yeah that's right! Jump master.

You got games on your tesla?

Norway, where Tesla is becoming the most popular car brand

How the fuck are Norwegians affording that

Because they are rich. Also Norway has quite large government subsidies for EVs. IIRC they are exempt from the 25% VAT for example.
EVs aren't exactly cheap, but petrol cars are even more expensive.

Unpopular opinion: I hate Elon Musk and basically never thought I'd consider buying a tesla. But to be fair, I did quite some research and a couple of test drives with various cars and overall the model 3 is the best deal for my requirements. Especicially, it seems to be the most energy efficient car in that size and cost range. You can drive a model 3 with around 15 kWh / 100 km even in winter on the highway where competitors range around 18-22.

Regarding the two buttons for the turn signals: yes I'd probably prefer the old-fashioned approach with a lever but the two buttons are definitely not as bad as claimed in all the articles. I got used to it pretty quickly during the test drive and also in roundabouts it is practicable even thought not the most ideal approach.

I drove an older model (I think) Tesla for the first time recently and that signal was dumb as hell. I can only imagine what fuckery's been added since.

Sorry if I seem normie and not Tesla-pilled…but why is someone’s Steam library on the dashboard of the thumbnail? We’re just…catching up on our backlog in the Tesla now?

I'm all for hating Tesla, but if your vehicle is approved for Norwegian roads, and is the correct class, it should be able to be used in the driving test. Why should it matter how you signal, as long as you do it? You could even do hand signals if you wanted. (PS learn your countries' hand signals)

If you had read the article, you would know that this has nothing to do with your car. You can learn to drive whatever car you want in Norway.

Some Norwegian driving schools are making it policy not to buy Teslas as training vehicles because they use non-standard controls. They only want training vehicles that use standard controls, because that's the best way to teach a student.

This makes sense. If most cars have a stalk, teach students to drive that way, not with the weird car that's slowly transforming into an Xbox. If students own a Tesla, they can still learn to drive it, the driving schools are just unlikely to have that model in their lot.
- That makes a lot more sense.
  
  I made a similar decision in that my teen is not allowed to use my Tesla while learning to drive. Regardless if the turn signal controversy, Tesla controls are different. It’s easy enough for an experienced driver to pick up but I’m concerned about the opposite. If a new driver is used to everything happening automatically, they won’t have good habits for driving more typical vehicles.
  
  But there shouldn’t be outrage: I expected to use the same logic to make them learn on a manual transmission. However those were always rare in US, modern CVT, paddle annd other electronic automatics make them less useful, and of course EVs have no need for a transmission.
the article says that it's more difficult to use this turn signal in the roundabout ( as the button is on the wheel so its position shifted along with the steering wheel, as opposed to the static position of the stalk ) and the driver has to shift a part of their attention to locate the button The person who found this also ask other instructors and they agreed, that's why they're not buying this model

but IMO if I'm an ownwer of a driving school looking to buy new cars for students, I'd pick more generic one too. Students would prefer to learn how to operate most cars than a specific model. Like how most music school would prefer normal guitar than double neck guitar
- My kids’ driving school has cars without a backup cam. I don’t know if that’s intentional or just older cars, but I believe it’s a better choice to learn how to drive without that assistance
Hey potato...did you read the article ?