How would you feel if Beehaw left the Fediverse?

While I would understand your reasoning for doing so, I would be disappointed to see it happen. There's decent discussions on Beehaw that I enjoy taking part in, however if you guys decided to defederate or switch to a different platform entirely, I doubt that I would make another account somewhere else to follow. I like Beehaw's content, but I have enough accounts to keep track of these days after everything split from Reddit, so it would ultimately be a loss for me.

I'm not sure if this is a commonly-held opinion for those of us outside of Beehaw, though.

I'm subbed to some communities on Beehaw and I would miss them. But not enough to make an account on Beehaw to get them back.

Right now, we feel that Lemmy and ActivityPub have downsides that are limiting us from achieving that goal.

Could you expand on this? How exactly does these things prevent you from Being Nice, if that's the goal of your community?

Defederating Beehaw would not only weaken it as an instance, but remove its positive influence from the wider fediverse. The big platforms wield so much power and influence and money, the smaller upstarts need to connect as much as possible to stand a chance at relevance as a credible alternative. We're all better together. I really hope you reconsider.

I don't think you guys cared when you defederated from the rest of the fediverse and turned up your nose at everyone else. I'm not sure why you care now. You guys go and do your thing, but I don't think you're very relevant to the fediverse.

You speak very vaguely, and I don't think you're being fully honest with your reasoning, but by this point, I don't think it really matters.

You've already defederated lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works, so I don't care

I feel like I've given my answer to this question regarding Beehaw once before...

But as I see it, the main driving force and overall source of value for services like Lemmy, Kbin, Mastodon, etc., is federation. That is to say, federation among a wide variety of different users and servers across the fediverse using protocols like ActivityPub is what sets this entire thing apart from legacy centralized and corporate social media, like Reddit or "X".

I was initially on Beehaw myself and I liked the mature and kind atmosphere, but I ended up splitting for Kbin due to issues with defederation (on top of being curious and interested in Kbin as an alternative software to lemmy). But whether we're talking about "Beehaw.org" or "Kbin.social", in my view the federation is a huge part of the appeal, and I wouldn't see myself continuing to use a server if it cut itself off from the rest of the network, regardless of whether they did it for "good reasons" or not.

Like, if Beehaw wants to be just a significantly smaller and more highly moderated centralized alternative to Reddit, that feels like a pretty weak pitch which, at best, might end up with a community roughly the size of a classic forum. I'm not really interested in that. I want the Fediverse to succeed as a decentralized, open, scalable, and community-moderated alternative to legacy social media. Frankly, my interest in Beehaw as a community hinges completely on it being a part of that movement or not.

I can understand how federation may have posed significant challenges towards your goal of detailed moderation and creating a safe and friendly space, but only in the sense that you were possibly not fully prepared for the level of exposure to a large number of federated users. But even so, if Beehaw is ever to grow into something bigger (which, to be honest, is not a given, especially if you set out on your own as just another disconnected and insular social media website), you will eventually have to deal with the harsh reality that the kind of moderation that you're interested in doing is going to be a significant challenge as your community scales, federated or not. (For example, you may be prepared to moderate content in English, but are you prepared to moderate content in other languages? How will you know when someone starts spreading disinformation and hate speech in Burmese?)

Finally, I think you might want to consider the general movement towards federated social media. Between ActivityPub and the Fediverse, Meta's interest in federating Threads, BlueSky being developed around federation to some extent, federation support in things like WordPress, and a number of other social media platforms tip-toeing their way into the idea, I personally feel that there is a pretty interesting paradigm shift happening right now. Some of that has to do with moderation, responsibility and government pressure on big tech, I think.

But nevertheless, social media is gradually moving towards federation, and I think that's a good thing for the internet as a whole. You nice people at Beehaw will really have to search yourselves to determine whether you see the value in federation (both in terms of connecting people, but also in terms of allowing various communities to self-moderate to some extent) or not.

I do hope you'll stay, even though it means facing the growing pains of moderation challenges sooner rather than later, because the fediverse is better with us all connected and communicating together. I'll be sticking with the fediverse with or without Beehaw, but I do wish you all luck in your goals should you decide to set out on your own.

Why do you care what other instances think about it? I'm honestly asking and expecting an answer here. This isn't a sassy question.

You built a wall and now you're asking people outside of that wall what it feels for you to leave. Well, I'd care if I could see what's inside the wall, but I can't. I tried subscribing and it was impossible.

So why do you care what people outside of your wall think? Again, I expect an answer here.

To be honest, I probably wouldn’t notice. I don’t think I follow anything on Beehaw and I don’t see much content from there. I tried to join a while ago when I first joined Lemmy, but was never approved. I kind of thought it was already a pretty closed off community, so it wouldn’t really change my opinion much. It would be sad for your users who will probably not receive benefit they otherwise would, but if that’s what they want, then either you’ll provide it or someone else will.

Edit: Apparently I don’t see anything from you because my instance was already defederated by you. I guess that explains it.

Good riddance, Beehaw is terrible. It was maybe the single biggest exporter of concern-trolling about lemmy.ml and to my knowledge still entertains absurdly reactionary comms for no reason (though I haven't brushed up on my lore in a while). Go make your blue Raddle.

More constructively: Having your "Northern Star" be "intentionally vague" is not a good practice. Having clear rules is a much better way to avoid falling into "what did the mod who reviewed the report feel like doing at the time?" arbitration issues. If you want to serve disenfranchised communities well,* then have that be the foundation and clearly define what that means and why you are doing it.

*My experience with this was that Beehaw was more about first world radlibs patting themselves on the back, but I digress

You don't really explain why activityPub is limiting you. It's hard to help you here.

After many hours of talks, it became clear that our overall goal could be achieved outside of Lemmy/ActivityPub.

Right now, we feel that Lemmy and ActivityPub have downsides that are limiting us from achieving that goal.

I have two questions.

1. What are your long-term goals for your platform?
2. What are the downsides to Lemmy/ActivityPub stopping you from reaching those goals?

Also to answer the main question I'd like for it to stay but at the same time, the last time I checked Beehaw had around 700-ish Monthly active users. That means there probably wouldn't be that much of an impact on the general discourse of Lemmy more broadly.

That seems like enough to sustain a pretty big community on a private server even if about half of you left. So if you guys do decide to leave I wish you the best.

Without the loaded malice of some of these comments, sincerely, I forgot beehaw existed. It looked like the place to go during the migration and was constantly getting good word of mouth on all the Reddit move channels. Then the barrier to entry went up with the essay application, which was 100% fine as a decision, but obviously made it a hassle for the masses trying to find a home. Couple that with no open community creation, leaving no landing spot for niche communities and I went elsewhere.

But even after taking a shotgun approach and making accounts on multiple instances when stability and federation was still struggling, beehaw started defederating from everything. Again, 100% your decision. But the reasons were often blatantly showing that beehaw was not willing to engage in the learning process of this new interface with the rest of us.

So, again no malice, I literally forgot beehaw existed till seeing this post. So if your admins and users think you can achieve whatever elsewhere, I don’t see why you shouldn’t.

I mean, the very fact that you're asking this on a different instance is kinda your answer.

Beehaw isn't relevant to the fediverse as a whole. I don't see there being any downside (to the fediverse) to y'all staying federated, to y'all staying with lemmy as your forum but defederating totally, increasing the instances you're defederated from, or abandoning the software for anything else.

Don't take that wrong, I'm glad someone is willing to try the experiment y'all are doing, it's a beautiful thing. It's just that beehaw has never been relevant to the rest of lemmy. That was never the goal (as you said). I have an account there that I rarely use because it isn't really part of the fediverse at all. Beehaw is its own thing that might as well not be connected.

I dunno that it's a good use of resources to try a new forum solution, when lemmy is viable for that currently, but that's a different subject than what you're asking.

And, since your goals don't include being a kind of example, nor existing as a beacon on the fediverse for people of like mind to find, I would say just defederate totally.

i've enjoyed the beehaw peeps, but im certainly not going to make an account. the instance would be missed.

i am moving away from walled gardens, not towards them.

Which one was beehaw?

Beehaw seemed too fast and heavyhanded with defederating a while back. IMO, defederation is really a "last resort" style of option, not a "first response," so Beehaw using it essentially as a "first response" to some of the bigger instances kinda told me that Beehaw wanted to be off on an island by itself. Like it wanted to be a private forum instead of a Lemmy instance.

I don't miss Beehaw, and Beehaw disappearing from Lemmy wouldn't matter to me, because as far as I am concerned it kinda already did that.

The purpose of Lemmy is to be open and connected, not a private walled garden. If it doesn't fit what you want, then use something else.

Basically, what is there for 90% of Lemmy users to miss, if you effectively banned 90% of Lemmy users by defederating the biggest instances in the first place? They already dont interact or see your content, unless they're using multiple accounts, which would be no different if Beehaw wasnt a Lemmy instance at all.

What's a Beehaw?

I thought you had been defederated for months now

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Beehaw is my home in the fediverse, and I'm happy here. I like that they try to maintain a positive community. But if Beehaw left the fediverse, I wouldn't come along. Which is a change from thinking I might last time I saw this topic come up.

If beehaw ends up in a silo I think it will just have too little to offer for me. And that's ok. This isn't about me, it's about creating a safe space for your disenfranchised users.

I hope Beehaw stays, but I understand if they don't.

I'd leave Beehaw 🤓

It's not nearly big enough to be its own thing, and since the "quality" of posters is no better than other instances at this point, there woild be no reason to stay. I would certainly miss the communities there tho.

Also, Tildes is not a very good site to look up to. Why would anyone want another admin power-tripping place online?

I had assumed beehaw had already defeded. Since I've been using lemmy, there has never not been some discussion about beehaw and their federation/defederation choices and discussing the intricacies of those decisions. For whatever reason, I haven't really seen anything from or about beehaw since joining this instance so I presumed they defeded. Prior to that, it seemed hit or miss whether or not I'd get the privilege of seeing beehaw.

All that is to say, with the way you've handled moderation, if you left the fediverse it would probably just make everyone's lives simpler. It's going to be a "shit or get off the pot" from me, dawg.

yall are made up of butthurt anticommunists lemmygrad chased off lemmy years ago, you won't be remembered at all

We decided that our ‘Northern Star’ or guiding principle would culminate as ‘Be Nice’ with purposefully vague/flexible interpretations. Our overall goal is to provide a safe space to disenfranchised persons.

Oh look, someone failed to absorb one of the lessons of Letter from Birmingham jail

https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html

Lol. Lmao even.

I main Lemmygrad and you've been defederated from us since the beginning, so I don't think I would notice nor care. Good riddance lib safe space.

Beehaw is cool but I don't see it as a unique enough thing to draw me off the fediverse. To me it's just reddit if every user was a reddit mod. The discussion is only nice because anything else is met with heavy handed moderation. Since beehaw is defederated from majority of the fediverse it would make no difference if they left.

🤷‍♂️

Instances will come and go.

I would like to hear more about what the limitations of ActivityPub are that you feel justifies taking away all the federated lemmy content from your users though.

Speaking as an admin, the only thing I view as my responsibility is removing spam/scams and making sure the instance is running and improving. Taking away/moderating what our users can see is something we want to avoid as much as possible (as long as it doesn't break instance rules of course), so what your team is discussing sounds quite radical.

I would be disappointed. I like the content from Beehaw and I enjoy being able to see it in my federated feed. I also think Beehaw fits a good niche in the Fediverse that would otherwise leave a hole if it was not there. I also think beehaw is a good influence on the Fediverse as a whole.

Have you considered that a part of your goal could be to make things better for disenfranchised people in a more general way? I think your presence in the Fediverse has a positive effect that goes beyond your own instance. And I think that's worth preserving.

Is Beehaw even really in the fediverse when you don't federate with almost anyone?

lol, your wannabe

Didn't that instance pre-emptively defederate Hexbear and Lemmygrad for not being liberal hellholes? Lol

Y'all defederated my instance a while ago, and while there were a couple solid communities on Beehaw, I don't feel like I'm missing anything significant, and I'd basically forgotten about you until just now. Lemmy is fine without you. And we'll always have Blahaj.

it's nice when the trash takes itself out

Whats a beehaw?

Lol, so good I left Beehaw already. Do whatever you want now, not going to miss it, neither their admins.

I doubt I'd notice.

You didn’t say why. Bit pointless having a discussion about nothing

Why'd you even post this if you can't be bothered to interract at any point in the thread? Just leave bro.

It wouldn't affect me in the slightest since you've defederated from lemmy.world anyway. As for how I think about Beehaw leaving Lemmy as a whole... I think that you have your own visions of what your instance and your communities should be, and if you say Lemmy just isn't a good fit, then it isn't. So just do what you have to do, I understand completely and I wish you luck in all your future endeavors.

I think it would be a real shame, and would fragment the fediverse as a whole - some of Beehaw's communities are some of the best on the Fediverse (and I really appreciate the work of the mods of communities on Beehaw), but the Fediverse / Lemmyverse is a lot bigger than just the Beehaw instance, and I really like being able to participate in communities from all over. Having to create accounts separately on lots of walled garden instances is probably not worth it, so I think it would make both Beehaw and the rest of the Fediverse weaker.

Overall I'd be sad about it, and discourage, but I'm sure the fediverse would live on despite it, in a weakened form.

Perhaps the real question is why would you consider doing that? It seems like a lose/lose for everyone. Would you be able to elaborate on what the exact problem you are trying to solve is? Perhaps the community could help you come up with a better solution.

To all the thoughts here already I’m going to ask something that may be wrong and may also be somewhat rude and or hurtful to the person/people it implicitly targets (which isn’t my intention unfortunately) … but which I feel is the tiny elephant in the room:

How much is the beehaw motive to leave the fediverse driven by a small and relatively unchallenged voice from technical person/people in the beehaw team who doesn’t like the fediverse and Lemmy for a bunch of technical reasons and who is certain that they can achieve better some how?

The relevance of this is that I honestly think the fediverse is somewhat plagued by the aggregate effect of the mentality of indy tech people to prefer to do their own thing and to find others’ work and cooperating with it/them insurmountable distasteful. Basically mass NIH.

Which is not problem on its own. Tech people do great things and being motivated to do what they want is pretty fundamental. Hell this is probably half of what’s going on with Lemmy’s development.

But beehaw’s goals are not technical, arguably not at all even to the point of being in spite of technical factors as a “safe space online for the disenfranchised” has intrinsic tension I’d say. And it seems that you’re very reliant on the technical heroes that have kept your instance healthy.

Which means their own technical tastes and motivations might hold too much sway and their promises might be too convincing.

I’m not sure this will help your reasoning, but I figured there was small chance that bringing this might help. The reality may be that the essence of the beehaw project requires fighting the nature of technology.

beehaw deeze nuts

Beehaw has already chosen not to be a part of the fediverse. There's no real purpose in asking us; only you can resolve Beehaw's identity crisis.

Beehaw seems designed with the intent of being a specific type of echo chamber. And there is nothing wrong with that. But the fediverse wouldn’t miss yet another echo chamber.

Do as you want.

Do what you feel you need to do. Beehaw was my first Lemmy instance, although I have since left. What I initially liked about it was that there was active moderation and the admins seemed to do a good job keeping things running. It was a chill place that didn’t really appeal to the more toxic types you run into on the internet. It was like a friendly little bubble and a good home base in the fediverse.

While I appreciated that toxic instances were blocked, I felt blocking instances simply because they didn’t have great moderation was a little too much. It meant I was missing out on a lot of good content too. I understand the decision but I realized then that the original Beehaw community was more content to be insulated than I was. For a lot of people there, it was more important to have their own tight community than to be part of the fediverse. There’s no hard feelings about it. I enjoyed my time on Beehaw and contributed to server costs. I found another good instance that’s better federated and manages not to have a bunch of nazi and racist garbage so it’s all good.

These conversations have been brewing for a while at Beehaw. I would imagine a lot of the people who don’t especially like the insulated approach have moved on to other instances or created alt accounts for when they want to interact with the larger fediverse.

I don’t think anyone will miss anything if Beehaw migrates to a non-federated platform.

I'd laugh lol.

Since you all defederated from lemmy.world I don't see any posts from Beehaw, so from a practical standpoint leaving the fediverse wouldn't affect me in the slightest. On a personal level, you all should do what you feel is best for you community and I wish you good health, good fortune, and good luck with whatever you decide.