Will Microsoft drop the TPM requirement for Win 11 once Win 12 rolls around?
Or maybe they will launch Win 12 with optional TPM support.
Imho making the OS(es) TPM only cannot be good for their business, many people are still on Win 10 with no intention to switch, since their motheboard does not support TPM and do not want to upgrade PC / waste PCI-E slot on TPM extension.
After using Windows for 30+ years now (since Windows 1), this is one of the straws finally pushing me into Linux.
I'm running 10, but without a TPM, can't go to 11. So sad. Not.
Honestly 7 was the last decent OS they made. In my opinion the good OS's were NT4 (game changer), 2000, XP, 7. They can keep the rest.
You can use the Rufus USB flashing tool with the Windows 11 iso and it will remove the TPM requirement and others.
Oh windows 2000 how I miss thee.
I honestly think it's the best OS they released. Shame so many games would throw a shitfit at the time because it reported it was Windows NT (rightfully so).
All the current major distros of linux require TPM.
TPM prevents users from downloading random kinder eggs that install ransomware. Any business that disables TPM is crazy.
Why do you say a TPM prevents users from running malicious software? As far as I know that’s not really what they’re used for.
I'd like to see how you disable tpm on 2010s thinkpad where tpm don't even exist
If I was not using my PC for gaming also, I would probably say fuck them and be on Linux too. But gaming on Linux is cancer.
you got a lot of hate because Lemmy tends to be militantly pro-Linux, (it sort of goes hand-in-hand with the FOSS ideas that Lemmy is built on) but every Linux user who built their own rig has wanted to throw their computer out the fucking window while trying to get nvidia drivers to work.
Linux gamers point to the Steam Deck as the example that gaming on Linux isn’t awful… The Steam Deck is an amazing advancement, but it’s essentially just a console like the Xbox or PlayStation; It’s using a known list of hardware, with pre-installed and pre-tested drivers. As far as play-testing and QA is concerned, that’s as close as you can get to having a controlled environment. For people who build their own computers, drivers on Linux are still a fucking nightmare. You still occasionally have to fight with them just to get modern games working.
It’s better than it used to be, for sure. But it’s nowhere near as easy as many people want to claim. Especially when compared to Windows, where it usually is just plug and play. Microsoft can suck a chode for their invasive and monopolistic practices, but those same practices are also what led to gaming being so fucking easy on Windows. You buy the game, you install the game, and the game boots up first try. Because companies test for Windows. They know what to expect from Windows. They know how hardware will perform on Windows, and what the potential pitfalls will be. None of that is true for Linux, where the OS varies just as much as the user’s hardware.
I do genuinely believe it will continue to get better. But people who go “lol gaming on Linux is ezpz” aren’t doing Linux any favors. Because if someone hears that, tries it, and finds out it isn’t easy? They’ll be much more inclined to just go “fuck it, I tried and it didn’t work so it must not be for me” and default back to Windows.
Not so much anymore, it’s apparently improved significantly and getting better all the time. Check out linux_gaming. A lot of avid proponents there given the shitshow M$FT has made of Windows.
It's so easy to run on Linux now. Lol what are you doing?
May I ask why you think so, Steam Deck is built on Arch Linux?
That's what the Steam Deck is for. ;)
I game on Linux and don't even have Windows installed. If a game doesn't work on Linux, it isn't worth playing so I refund/don't get it in the first place. I'm tired of getting fucked by Windows so I'm not going to use it. At this point I just don't care about what doesn't work on Linux, I'm better off using it than any of the other choices anyway.
Microsoft doesn't care about you upgrading your personal computer. they care about business licenses. Enterprise pays the bills, and enterprise computers have all had TPM for ages. I don't see any reason for them to make a change. consumers buying a new os for an existing computer is a drop in the bucket
Yeah, and then there are many enterprises that still use XP (edge case, but it may be well hundreds of thousands worldwide still) or Win 7 (possible millions of companies). It is not all smooth sailing in enterprise level either, many companies are upgrade averse, and if the stuff works, then why upgrade it.
Because of missing support and updates. These machines are not their concern though - they are running obsolete software and/or hardware that’s incompatible with an upgrade. No matter the requirements for tpm on win 11.
Because it's cheaper to sell them back then support all the bullshit and replace batteries every damn week whenever anybody complains about having a slow computer. As well as an easy way to manage money. You just lease the machines, send them off, and if there is a problem the vendor deals with shipping, troubleshooting, and all the labor managing an older device.
making the OS(es) TPM only cannot be good for their business, many people are still on Win 10 with no intention to switch
The switch from Win 10 to Win 11 costs nothing, so Microsoft doesn't care at all whether you keep using 10 until your PC dies.
The next one you buy will come with 11 preinstalled.
Microsoft doesn't care if you install Linux either.
You've already paid for the Windows license when you bought the PC.
You've already paid for the Windows license when you bought the PC.
Me scratching off the labels of old Win7 office computers at work
So don't pay for windows, get it unactivated and use MAS to activate it.
This assumes you bought a pre-made machine. Building your own won't have any OS you didn't install yourself.
That's such a tiny market that it's completely irrelevant to a company like Microsoft.
Why? What benefit would Microsoft have in changing the requirements for Windows 11 when Windows 12 will more than likely be the OS they focus most of their resources on?
This.
The way Microsoft phrases it, it's way more ubiquitous than you make it out:
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/what-is-tpm-705f241d-025d-4470-80c5-4feeb24fa1ee
"TPM has been around for over 20 years, and has been part of PCs since around 2005. In 2016 TPM version 2.0 - the current version as of this writing - became standard in new PCs.
The odds are that your PC does already have TPM, and if it's less than 5 years old you should have TPM 2.0.
To find out if your Windows 10 PC already has it go to Start > Settings > Update and Security > Windows Security > Device Security. If you have it, you'll see a Security processor section on the screen."
So when they say:
"Important: Windows 11 requires TPM version 2.0."
They're requiring a standard established 7 years ago. Windows 11 launched in 2021, why WOULDN'T it require something from 2016?
You really want to run an OS from 2021 on hardware older than 2016? That's not going to be a good idea, TPM or not.
Probably worth noting that TPM often needs to be enabled in the motherboard’s BIOS. It’s possible that OP has it already, but got the “you don’t have TPM” error when trying to upgrade to Win11, simply because it isn’t activated in their BIOS.
Also worth noting that people may have access to TPM through their CPU, notably AMD Rysens... And that some of those were plagued for a while with very bad performance issues when it was activated.
It's supposed to be fixed now, but only if you got the right BIOS updates. Not sure myself, I kinda gave up on TPM and Windows 11 on my current hardware.
The way things are going, honestly my next PC will probably have TPM because it'll have a newer motherboard, but I am not ruling out not having Windows on it.
Yup, seems likely given how it's baked in and has been baked in for years.
Problem is, i havent enabled my TPM and don't plan to, either.
TPM just gives your PC a non-spoofable fingerprint so Microsoft can always identify your PC. It's simply a DRM-device built into your PC.
Your PC is already identifiable by the license key, the hardware installed, and you signing in with a Microsoft Account. If you're that worried about gummint tracking or something, you shouldn't even be gaming on your PC, as games and game stores have a lot of data to leak about you and what you're doing on the PC.
You really want to run an OS from 2021 on hardware older than 2016? That's not going to be a good idea, TPM or not.
Why?
10+ years of usage for a PC or laptop is completely normal outside the gamere/tech enthusiast bubble.
If you only use your PC for Amazon, Streaming and occasionally Word/Excel, a 10yo laptop is totally enough.
we still run win10 at the office on dual core wolfdale systems. they mostly now have 8gb ram and sata ssd. they run great. wolfdale launched in 2008, seven years before win10 was released.
i also have win11 set up on ivy bridge and haswell, that are also running very well. used daily for everything from basic office tasks, email with local multi-gigabyte mail stores, to video capture and editing. these are even older in relation to win11 than wolfdale is to win10.
the main issue is microsoft has unilaterally and arbitrarily decided that all these systems, all the way up to kaby lake (which was only discontinued by intel in 2020), which are usable by many, if not most, users for the tasks they perform are now 'obsolete'.... all in the name of profits for them and their oem partners.
It's hard to avoid. People here just have been removed about tpm because Linux distro maintainers don't want to jump through hoops signing their shit. This problem doesn't exist outside of Linux forums and people with absurdly old hardware.
Wrong. Linux has supported TPM2.0 for ages before even Windows and every distro maintainer would gladly sign their shit. The problem is that a shitload of hardware only accepts Microsoft TPM keys by default which can't legally be used by Linux distributions, forcing the work onto the users. It's pure vendor lock-in.
\
Also, this is going to be a way less of an issue when UKI's become the standard.
No chance.
Is anyone going to bring up the fact they told everyone 10 was the last version of windows. Then they launched 11 and are now talking about 12.
I know companies lie all the time, but we can at least call them out on it
No chance.
You concentrate on the TPM but ignore the CPU requirements...? If you have a CPU that is up to spec, you have a TPM - they're built in the CPU. Most people just need to turn it on in the BIOS (or update their BIOS as motherboard manufacturers have turned on the TPM as "Windows 11 support")
The truth of it is, every "jump" OS, i.e. 95, XP, 7, 10 has run really poorly on >5 year old chips at the time of launching. And MS got panned at "how slow" is was. But it was also the norm to update your PC more often. Now speed increases have slowed and Moore's Law has ended, it's about security and performance hit of said security. The truth is, the kernel hardening and malware protection and encryption built into 11 to make it far less likely to get infected than 10 and 7 means it needs the hardware support to do it. Without it, it runs far slower or is less secure. Neither anyone wants.
When 10 support ends in 2 years time, the lowest supported processor for 11 will be nearly 9 years old...
Damn, some sense around these parts. Always felt the TPM issue was overblown. Unless you wanted Win11 on day 1, and no sensible user should be doing that anyway!
I wonder how many people are suffering from terrible performance due to the AMD fTPU being a piece of shit? I've tried to turn it on for two different CPUs of different generations (3700X and 5800X) and they both had horrible stuttering. Even if I wanted to I couldn't upgrade to Windows 11 like Microsoft wants because the experience would be unacceptable.
Do you have any references for the reduced malware infections provided by Win 11 that requires the TPU?
It's not directly the TPM - it's the enhanced security instructions in the newer chips (which is the real reason for the very definite line drawn).
Read https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/08/why-windows-11-has-such-strict-hardware-requirements-according-to-microsoft/ from "A towering stack of security acronyms"
I have an INTEL I9-10850K installed on a MSI MAG Z490 mobo that I bought in 2020 and neither have A TPM.
What is your definition of 'up to spec'?
the "infection protection" relies on you to trust Microsoft that they check everything you want to do to your PC. For computer illiterate users this may be a benefit, but only if MS doesn't turn evil or negligent or stupid and blocks apps that you need. You can brick a PC from remote with TPM.
You can brick a pc from remote with a boot virus, without needing the TPM to do it.
How? You could certainly temporarily break the boot process, but I can't see how you'd completely brick it.
https://lemmy.world/post/9205583
Here's why it's against Microsoft interest to drop TPM requirement. They will paywall updates for Windows 10. So, pay for software updates or pay for hardware updates.
Because there is no possible alternative /S
This is nothing new. Windows 10 will be 10 years old at that point. They’ve done paid extended service for several previous windows versions. I don’t like Windows or Microsoft. I run Linux or MacOS where I can but I can’t fault them for supporting an OS for 10 years.
Wow, so many salty replies to Linux or soon-to-be Linux users in that thread
Not really, the only saltines comes from OPs tears all over this post.
It's just so fun seeing how OP is faced with either having an unsecure system or having to pay to replace his otherwise perfectly capable machine, but still has so much loyalty to Microsoft (or he's in extreme denial) that he's throwing shit at everybody,even those who just explain Microsoft won't drop the requirement.
But it's ok, my non TPM machines will continue to work for years, always up to date. And when 12 rises the requirements yet again I'll laugh at all the people crying that a trillion dollars company isn't hearing them.
Ha ha, no.
Chances are by Windows 12 they'll start implementing a check with their vendors to verify you're running windows and deny you any alternatives.
Windows 13 will melt your PC if you type the word Linux.
And Windows 14 will take you out to the woods and execute you if you even so much as think about a penguin.
"You must purchase a Big Mac with a large fries to continue logging into your Microsoft account."
What incentive would they have? What competition is there?
What incentive would they have? What competition is there?
They would have no incentive of course. A Win11 system with the TPM turned off would be infected with malware straight away.
You haven't used Windows in at least a decade, have you?
Windows 10 and 11 come by default with Defender, which is one of the best anti-viruses on the block. And it is always enabled unless you install a different AV.
From business standpoint, it simply bleeds you potential profits. If tens of percents skimp on two of your OS iterations in a row and keep windows 10 (which most of were "free" upgrades from Win 7 to begin with) then you are losing lot of revenue in a long run. I got the original win 10 upgrade in 2015 (bought win 7 in 2011) , in 2020 build a new PC and still use that licence on it.I possibly see myself using Win 10 well into 2026/2027 when my PC is due for complete replacement. So that is over 15 years period where MS saw no money from me while I still use completely legal version of OS. If there was no TPM requirement, I would probabably already be on Win 11
You make it sound like MS cares about home users at all. MS makes money off business licensing. Forcing businesses to dump old equipment is a big win for them.
It’s not like the people that aren’t upgrading were making them any money anyways. MS doesn’t care about you or the 10’s of people that decide to not upgrade.
Microsoft doesn’t make their money selling to consumers, they make their money selling to businesses. Thats why you don’t really need a Windows license, and why the OS is filled to the brim with garbage
It would be a fair assumption if Microsoft's clients were individuals and businesses, but their main clients are the OEMs that buy and package Windows licenses with the computers they sell.
Now, I don't see why OEMs would ask Microsoft to drop this requirement (it's not particularly hard or unbearably expensive to add TPM), and even if they did they don't have a say in this as Microsoft has hard hardware requirements for Windows PC.
I think they will rethink things only if it's cutting into the profits enough. Unfortunately, most people won't understand the issue and just buy something new if they can. Of those that didn't upgrade, a chunk might also be people who can't upgrade because of compatibility reasons (ex. Lots of healthcare providers only RECENTLY switched to Windows 10). The remaining portion might just use Linux.
Overall they get more out of keeping the requirement unfortunately?
Imho making the OS(es) TPM only cannot be good for their business
It is good for their business.
There are very few people who turn away from M$ because they disagree with the TPM requirement.
There are some more people who whine and complain about the TPM requirement. Note the subtle difference :-) Experience has shown that most of these people have no real problem. They find a way, for example buy new hardware. It was a success for M$ if you buy new hardware.
In the long run, M$ wants to make more use of your TPM. Therefore I do not think that they see any reason to drop it.
Absolutely not. None of the arguments you said are even relevant for their business. If it was true they would do their best to reduce the requirements creep version to version.
Of course you can use Linux, but you made clear that you're uninformed about that in another post.
I've been running 11 on my 10 y/o PC without TPM 2 for a while and it's been working with zero issues. It's all just a money grabbing scheme to get people to upgrade their hardware.
Rufus or registry editing during installation can both dodge the requirement if you need it.
Even worse, Windows 12 is an AI OS. Think just like in the movie HER.
https://www.techspot.com/news/101032-windows-12-expected-usher-new-era-ai-pcs.html
Still running 10. I actually turned off TPM in bios so it stops pestering me to upgrade
TPM == double plus good/secure, right?