EU states can ban religious symbols in public workplaces
The court ruling came after a Belgian employee was told she could not wear an Islamic headscarf.
Please start with banning crosses as wall decoration in bavarian public authorities
That's how I know this law will absolutely be used to target specific religions unless the fundamentalist Christians take it too far.
Would be too funny to see Markus Söder's face if this would actually happen. "DeClInE oF tHe OcCiDeNt" or something like that.
I mean he did argue that they aren't a religious symbol before. He later contradicted himself and said that they are but I would not be surprised if he made that stupid argument again.
I think they are already illegal by the Grundgesetz and Bavaria is just Bavaria and do whatever they want.
illegal by the Grundgesetz
Hm, what Article would that be?
Unfortunately the separation of state and church is not very thorough in Germany.
And then there is Article 4
Article 4 [Freedom of faith and conscience]
(1) Freedom of faith and of conscience and freedom to profess a religious or philosophical creed shall be inviolable.
(2) The undisturbed practice of religion shall be guaranteed.
Lol no, they'll take Quebec's lead and claim that those symbols are part of their "unique cultural heritage" and therefore exempt
Wonder how they'll cope here in rural Austria.
Banning american propaganda from european society?
How about crosses in public institutions? Asking for a (bavarian) friend.
Yes please ban those too
Ah, so France
Technically forbidden by law. However, say, a crucifix on a necklace, hidden under clothes, is in kind of a gray area. Also some exceptions apply to Alsace I think
or Portugal
In Italy I was a member of UAAR (The Union of Rationalist Atheists and Agnostics) and we supported the legal costs of people battling against crucifixes in the workplace, compulsory prayers and even acoustic pollution caused by the church bells. This was in the late '90s to early '00s.
acoustic pollution caused by the church bells.
I really, really wish religious people would finally switch to clocks and phone notifications for their niche events like everyone else. Many people also have an odd romantic notion of this noise pollution. Sort of like the idiots who think loud motorbikes or sports cars make them look cool.
I guess it's cus everyone has a different standard of what pollution is for them. For me, the sound of windchimes calm me, I find industrial air vents relaxing, and church bells oddly peaceful, but can't stand someone even driving near me, dogs barking, babies crying, or fluorecent lights flickering. But you know, people need to drive, dogs and babies need to talk, and the world goes on.
I think it has more value than lets say cars and trucks, loud parties and fireworks.
Church, and mosque, not as religious symbols but as a community centers reminds lonely isolated people that they can go now and they will find people there to chat a little bit with.
Phones for older generation doesn't work and annoying as well.
Sounds fair to me, we need less religion everywhere.
What I don't get is the right wing pushing this and the left wing being against it, while the hero of the far left said 'Religion is the opium of the masses.'
The rest of the quote is: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people." Take from that what you will.
I also don't know that most people who identify as or are called left wing would call Marx their hero.
An argument I've heard against it is that it's overly harmful against non-western religions, specifically Islam. A pretty common tenet in Islam is some kind of head covering for woman. Banning that is a pretty sweeping reform. Christianity and Catholicism don't have anything like that, and if you really wanted to wear a cross you could just hide a necklace under your shirt. And Judaism, most non -orthodox Jews don't wear a yamaka 24/7. So in the end (typical) white religions aren't affected while minorities are.
Personally for me I don't care about wearing a religious symbol as long as you're not pushing your agenda. I don't care if my boss has a Bible on his desk any more than if he had a copy of dragon Ball z.
I would vastly prefer if my boss had DBZ rather than a Bible. BDZ is just literature, the Bible is a symbol of indoctrination, I don't want my boss to be influenced by some made up nonsense
Nuns and priests would not be allowed to wear their religious clothes either, so I’m okay with that.
It is not the secular state's fault that one religion chooses to be more backwards than the others by requiring religious clothing from all women, and is thus more affected by a ban on religious symbols.
Adapt to modernity or get the fuck out
The right wing is pushing specifically for the banning of things like the hijab or other religious head coverings usually worn by women. They justify it by saying that these head coverings are a symbol of oppression against women, and have no place in a free society.
Thing is though, how free is a society if it feels it has to dictate what women can and can't wear?
The problem is that you have to treat religion equally and for a lot of European countries that would mean pushing Christian symbols out of public offices as well. Most Nordic countries, Greece and Malta have crosses on their flags for example. Many countries like Germany have parties, which are explicitly Christian. The Bundeswehr uses the Iron Cross as a symbol, which is in direct heritage from a crusader order.
The problem for those countries is that baning Islamic symbols is very often just racist rethoric to hit Islam, rather then a proper separation of state and religion.
Because banning something so petty like a hijab is just a dick move which serves no purpose other than cause more tension, if any women is wearing something by her choice, who the fuck are we to judge? Isn’t that the whole point of tolerance and being left wing?
See, now I know you either just didn't read it or didn't understand. It applies to all religious symbols, not just a hijab. Can you argue it's unfair to non western religions like the above commenters? Yes and probably should. But what you said is wrong. They are not "banning something so petty like the hijab".
There's a rather considerable current of leftism that is libertarian. Over-regulation of what a person can do, especially with something as, well, personal as appearance, is at odds with left-libertarian values.
Left-authoritarianism is of course compatible with such regulations.
Almost like left ideologies are more complex than an just a yes or no, huh?
Wait until you notice they change over time as they evolve with society.
Good, fuck religion. The earlier we get rid of that shit, the earlier we can unify as a species.
That will never happen. If religion is erased from the equation, ideology or culture will take it's place and cause friction
Religion is ideology and culture that has caused friction for many years now. Thats the whole point of removing it.
Please explain how banning religious symbols is getting rid of religion.
It will reduce prejudice in one form: looks and clothing. The sooner we come together as a species, the greater we progress and bring fundamental changes in everything we care as a species.
I’m not sure a hijab is a religious symbol. It’s just a covering worn for religious reasons. The hijab doesn’t have a fixed design or pattern that makes it significantly different from what western women wore in the fifties.
And if you can’t go out in public dressed like Sophia Loren, what even is the point of western civilization?
I’m not sure a hijab is a religious symbol. It’s just a covering worn for religious reasons.
The problem is, far rights won't care.
They will start caring if women show up to meeting with messy hair.
This not about religion, because a Jewish men will be able to wear the head, and a Muslim will show up to bussinus meeting with prayer beeds. A sikh man will show up with a turban and other with Bindi.
I believe this is targeted at womens, next we will see a case where a company fire a female because she refuses to wear a skirt or wearing long jackets to cover her pants or something.
Good. Religion is like a penis, you don't pull it out in public or at work.
Not pulling out your penis in public comes from Abrahamic religious tradition, just like crosses. We sometimes forget that our modern Western hangups come from Christianity tapering the "immodesty" of cultures like the Greek and Celtic
Someone felt aggravated by your words, apparently, yet it is pure good sense, regardless the colorful choice of words.
can they ban you for wearing a necklace with a cross? or a scarf around your head? This is madness, what bad does it do to other people, this is like banning lgbtq people from kissing outside cause it makes others uncomfortable.
This isn't about banning people from wearing their religious merchandise in public. This is banning religious objects from workplaces. More precisely just public workplaces. Of course a secular state should also have secular workplaces. And the way labour rights are personal life can be completely banned from your workplace. Why would religion be treated differently?
No they can not ban you, but they can ban your cross.
If you can't live without your cross, that is on you.
Technically, covering your "naughty bits" is a religious taboo. Can they ban that?
Other people are calling that a slippery slope, but crosses as symbols absolutely transcend religions as much as clothing as a religious moral.
No, it's not on you, that's against the rules now
like banning lgbtq people from kissing outside cause it makes others uncomfortable.
We're talking about bans in workplaces here. And I think that your example is fitting. If a workplace can ban people kissing (or wearing a pyjama then it should be allowed to ban religion affiliated clothing as well. That sad, I do be live that in most cases employers shouldn't be allowed to ban these things. If you end up working with your boyfriend and occasionally share a short kiss, that's not going to affect your work and if you're able to do your job in your PJs, then you should be allowed to do so.
Shit tier take, with no nuance and a dashing of embedded prejudice.
what bad does it do to other people
Religion is a cancer, the quicker we kill it, the better society will be. In other words, religion does a lot of bad by being propagated.
Shit tier take, with no nuance and a dashing of embedded prejudice.
Religion is a cancer, the quicker we kill it, the better society will be.
Bruuh. I am not saying you are wrong, but you are criticizising what you are doing yourself by a much stronger margin.
In Spain religious symbols in public workplaces, official places and buildings are banned since years. You will see them only in religios buildings and churches, maybe in some old monuments.
So are headscarves for non-religious women going to be banned too? What about other modest clothing?
It's stupid. I agree.
If an Islam woman not in hijab starts wearing headscarves everyday just as a fashion anyway, theoretically it's not a religious whatever. So what's the point those far right idiots are making.
I would love so much to see headscarves and hair wraps become a trend just to fuck with this law.
Are they religious symbols?
If I can't judge women by their cover, I'm gonna need them all to get naked.
How could I tell apart an islamic and an atheist headscarf? My mother often wore one in the 1960s and 70s, as was the fashion back then.
I mean, it's more about code of vestment. Let's say the code of certain workplace say that you have to have your face fully visible, you can't wear anything that obstructs your face, if religious symbols were allowed you can justify yourself with "religious obligation", the "atheist headscarf" was banned from the start
Just hope the 60s and 70s don't come back, I guess? Or not care?
Edit: Okay, I really need to stop posting things right after waking up. I'm sorry; I hadn't read the article. Hadn't realized it focused on those. I suppose my answer still kinda works, though. Partially sarcastically, maybe. Bring back 60s/70s fashions to troll the clothes-banners and expect them to chill? I'm having a really hard time caring about other people's clothes at the moment and don't see why people think they have a right to dress others.
I prefer the "not care".
Get a picture and ask enough people to get a statistically significant result. The meaning of a symbols is defined by what people think it means and of course that can change with place and time. Hence in Europe the headscarf would be religious now but not back then.
From the article:
Conclusion In the light of the foregoing considerations, I propose that the Court answer as follows the questions referred for a preliminary ruling by the tribunal du travail de Liège (Labour Court, Liège, Belgium):
(1) Article 2(2)(a) of Council Directive 2000/78/EC of 27 November 2000 establishing a general framework for equal treatment in employment and occupation must be interpreted to mean that a provision of a public body’s terms of employment which prohibits employees from wearing any visible sign of political, philosophical or religious belief in the workplace, with the aim of putting in place an entirely neutral administrative environment, does not constitute, with regard to employees who intend to exercise their freedom of religion and conscience through the visible wearing of a sign or an item of clothing with religious connotations, direct discrimination on the grounds of religion or belief, for the purposes of that directive, provided that that provision is applied
(2) Article 2(2)(b) of Directive 2000/78 must be interpreted to mean that a difference of treatment indirectly based on religion or belief arising from a provision of a public body’s terms of employment which prohibits employees from wearing any visible sign of political, philosophical or religious belief in the workplace may be justified by that body’s desire to put in place an entirely neutral administrative environment, provided, first, that that desire responds to a genuine need on the part of that body, which it is for that body to demonstrate; second, that that difference of treatment is appropriate for the purpose of ensuring that that desire is properly realised; and, third, that that prohibition is limited to what is strictly necessary.
Religious symbols where they belong, in churches, temples and religious institutions, in public places, administrations, public libraries, schools and universities have absolutely nothing to do with, there they can result in offense or discrimination for people of another or no faith. Sad politicians making an oath on the Bible (in Spain they do it on the constitution, without additions like "with the help of God"). Religion is a true social backwardness, the proof is theocracies, there are none in the world where basic human rights are respected and where social progress is possible.
Now do it on Zionist symbols please
What defines public work place? If the church get tax breaks for being non-profit aren't they consider public?
I mean the answer is really not that complicated. If the checks are being paid by the government then it's a public work place. It's a pretty clearly defined thing.
Might be interesting with the hospitals run by the church but paid for 95% by the state here in Germany. Those have ridiculous religious exceptions to anti-discrimination law already.
no
I'll have a triple large double popcorn while Italy get this...
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The Court of Justice (ECJ) ruling came after a Belgian woman alleged the local municipality where she worked had infringed her religious freedom by telling her she couldn't wear a hijab.
The latest case arrived at the court after a Muslim employee of the eastern Belgian municipality of Ans was told she could not wear a headscarf at work.
The municipality then amended its terms of employment, saying they required employees to observe strict neutrality, which means any form of proselytising is prohibited and the wearing of overt signs of ideological or religious affiliation is not allowed for any worker.
Hearing the case, the Labour Court in Liège said it was uncertain whether the condition of strict neutrality imposed by the municipality gave rise to discrimination contrary to EU law.
In August France's Education Minister Gabriel Attal said state school pupils would be banned from wearing abayas, loose-fitting full-length robes worn by some Muslim women.
The garment had been increasingly worn in schools leading to a political divide over them, with right-wing parties pushing for a ban while those on the left voicing concerns for the rights of Muslim women and girls.
The original article contains 369 words, the summary contains 192 words. Saved 48%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
What about fashion choices?
Religion is so 00 B.C. Oldschool, but also it gives some poor people hope some times.
Gambling gives hope.
As does cocaine.
I wouldn't say it gives them hope, I would say it preys on poor and otherwise desperate people and makes their lives worse, often for the benefit of the ones higher up in the religious organizations but even where those truly believe too it often leads poor people to bad decision making.
I'd say both, it gives hope, it preys, sometimes that's non-overlapping sets
Ooooo, a fellow Year 0 enthusiast! Hail Satan, brother.
So what, I judge! Religion and displaying it in public is something an individual chooses. Having a different skin color or a foreign name is something one doesn't choose. So I will not judge.
Wearing clothes is a choice. We should ban clothes. /s
Without clothes, you'd die in the winter and your skin would suffer in the summer sun. Without religion, nothing is lost.
I cannot read. When I first looked at this, I read, "I judge a woman by her cover" and was very confused.
Sure let's just ban religion. Ask the millions of people that died under Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and other leaders that banned religion. Or all of the people that died during the French Revolution. Yes I know that the Church had the Inquisition and the Crusades, during which millions died. The Bible is already considered "hate speech" in many countries. How long before being Christian, Muslim or whatever means you can't hold a job or buy a house?
Revelation 13:16-17 The Mark of the Beast
16And the second beast required all people small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark—the name of the beast or the number of its name.
Meds now
EU states have their own sets of laws, so it's not too surprising to me that the EU laws don't intervene in this case.
That municipality really showed their islamophobia by banning hijabs in this way, though.
islamophobia
Is there such a thing as "christophobia" or "odinphobia"? No? Then stop using this cancerous word.
There is absolutely discrimination against Christians. Just not in western countries. Just ask the various oriental churches, or any balkanoid for what happened under the Ottomans.
And there is absolutely discrimination against pagans. Just look at official roman policy after the fourth century, or any number of northern crusades later.
Religious bigotry is nothing new. Another example is Jehovah's Witnesses, who have been targeted much more recently too.
The fact that christianophobia or paganophobia are not currently affecting western societies, at this very political moment does not mean they don't exist. Islamophobia is absolutely a real phenomenon that does happen to be the current stick to beat people with.
Bigotry is the cancerous phenomenon, not labelling it and opposing it.
WTH just let people wear what they want, as long as it is not too revealing.
as long as it is not too revealing
And how is banning "revealing" clothing any better than banning other other types of clothing that certain people might find offensive (e.g. headscarfs)? You won't get hurt by seeing some nipples either.