1y ago

Your server owner is now banned from participating on lemmy's Github

I will no longer be able to assist with development nor debugging actual issues with the software... Quite juvenile behavior from the devs. It stemmed from this issue where the devs continuously argued in public by opening and closing an issue. Anyway, thought I would keep y'all apprised of the situation, since these are the people maintaining the software you are currently using.

140 comments

I think that you should update your post with information that this ban is only for 7 days.
This:
I will no longer be able to assist with development
suggests that ban is infinite, which is not true.
- Yeah but if you were in this position would really want to contribute again? It's virtually an indefinite ban when the reason is this absurd.
  
  Yes, If I would contribute to lemmy, I wouldn't do it for the devs, but for the software and its users.
  EDIT: But don't think that I support nutomic's reaction to OP's comments.
  
  Unwilling =/= Unable, this is transparent sophistry
- Where do you see that information? I didn’t even know it was possible to do this until last night so not sure how I’m supposed to know how long it lasts.
  
  Sorry, I assumed that github shows it to you somehow. I know about it from nutomic's comment

Someone just linked me this, seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding. Pm me either through here or on matrix and we can try to get it resolved.
- From Nutomic in this very post:
  You kept posting offtopic comments which added nothing to resolving the issue. So I gave you a seven day ban, hopefully it will teach you a lesson.
  Where’s the misunderstanding? Seems like this was intended based on their reaction.
- "misunderstanding"
- "It will teach you a lesson"
  Wow. Way to treat volunteers.

Informative, and unfortunate.
100% agree with your take on the original issue - it should be a discussion between the devs, not edging along the lines of an argument. However, I do feel like the discussion would have been better suited to the dev Matrix chat or something
Even if they were upsetted by your comments, banning you was not the right way to handle that IMO.
- Just do it like other projects - tag it as enhancement, postpone it forever, be done with it. And in case it's a useful enhancement, you can see the votes accumulating on the issue and maybe really reconsider implementing it?
- Informative, and unfortunate.
  Do you watch Louis Rossmann? I've heard him say that phrase many times in his videos.
  
  Yepp I do, that's where I got it from lol

Idk I think y'all are a bit too dramatic lol. Imho you're reading too much into a small aggression. This has nothing to do with the future of Lemmy or anything as grandiose as that
- This has nothing to do with the future of Lemmy or anything as grandiose as that
  I didn't say it did. I mentioned that it would affect me, the person who runs the server you're commenting on. That's it.
  
  I was referring to other commenters, mb should've been clearer about it
  
  Hey bud when was the last time you went outside for a walk in nature and talked to someone in IRL? Because you seem to have created the most useless drama for yourself.
- nothing to do with the future of Lemmy
  Let's not go that far. That said, it's certainly not everything to do with it either. Let's call it an indicator and keep an eye on it.

Quite juvenile behavior from the devs.
The constant closing and reopening the issue was a bit weird but I didn't really see any hostility or toxic behavior, except from you getting pissy about it out of nowhere.

Looks like snowe missed the fact that each of those close/reopens were months apart, so it's clear the issue would ge re-opened, still not addressed after many many months, then closed to clean up the backlog, then re-opened because it actually still has value.
Snowe it seems interpreted this as two people fighting and not just normal stuff that happens on giant repos with many devs.
What he did wrong was comment about behaviors/edicit on a PR, which is not the appropriate place to have that convo.
PR comments are for talking about the PR, not for having meta convos about comments on PRs.
I don't even participate in this repo, but I can say that snowe was off topic here.
However the owner's reaction of a whopping seven day ban and "learn your lesson" comment was also abrasive and unreasonable.
Both sides fucked up here, get ya'lls shit together and apologize to each other yo.
- Well yeah the second comment didn't really had to be, but hey it's certainly not really reason enough to ban someone from the repo. The first comment I think is totally ok (as well as marking it off-topic, but optimally with an answer, probably marked as off-topic as well). Just keep an issue (it's not a PR) open, until the issue is resolved in one way or the other i.e. either solved reasonably via a third-party client (with links to it) or directly in the repo, asking the community (when it's not obvious that the issue is resolved), whether this is resolved, wait for reactions, and close it after some time based on that. Banning someone, or quickly closing or not reopening after a carefully written argument, that the issue is not solved etc. is just childish behaviour, especially for a community focused project (I'm watching a few lemmy issues on GH).
  
  or quickly closing or not reopening after a carefully written argument
  Thats where I think the misunderstanding was, if you look at the dates, many of the closings happened months after the issue was opened and no one posted anything on it, so it would clearly look to be a stale issue, so its reasonable to give a quick "Im closing this because of x" comment.
  Often in those cases the person is doing a bunch of cleanup and has to close dozens of stale issues, so writing a multi paragraph response on every single one is a lot of time to put into it.
  Then later the issue is re-opened again because it actually isnt stale, it just looks stale, and the cycle repeats as it continues to sit on the backburner.
  This is all very normal on any larger project, its pretty common to see issues get closed and re-opened if they are very low priority and sit on the backburner for literally years, and its common to see they have a bunch of short "Im closing this because x" responses as a result.
  But, if you look at the dates, you go "Oh, I see, these comments are months apart and not even really a "convo" but more just documentation.
- You are correct. I didn't notice that the comments were quite far apart. I was sent that issue by concerned members of my community and I kinda rushed in and commented.
  Snowe it seems interpreted this as two people fighting and not just normal stuff that happens on giant repos with many devs.
  correct, but it was not simply based on that one Issue. It was based on months of watching their interactions with the community.
  PR comments are for talking about the PR, not for having meta convos about comments on PRs.
  Then where do you have those conversations? (also it wasn't a PR, it was an issue) The conversations are about the code and about the decision making process around the code. They belong in a permanent store (not chat) where the decisions can be referenced. Would you recommend creating another separate issue to have the conversation?
  I don’t even participate in this repo, but I can say that snowe was off topic here.
  I can agree that my second comment was off-topic, but the first comment clearly discussed why the issue should be left open.
  However the owner’s reaction of a whopping seven day ban and “learn your lesson” comment was also abrasive and unreasonable.
  Honestly that wasn't the part that frustrated me. It was the no response no warning part of the interaction that was insulting. How am I supposed to know whether they marked my comment off-topic because I commented on the closing of the Issue or because they just didn't want to talk to users about the problem? How was I supposed to know that I was even going to get a ban (I didn't even know you could ban people and I have over a hundred repos on GH) for continuing to comment? And finally how was I supposed to even know that the ban was temporary? All the lack of communication did was lead to me making this post. If I had known it was only 7 days I probably wouldn't have done anything at all. Just let it pass, as waiting a week to respond is nothing in OSS land.
  Both sides fucked up here, get ya’lls shit together and apologize to each other yo.
  I've already talked to Dessalines about it. Not sure what to do about Nutomic.

Dude, who in their right mind would add scheduling infra to a client like that? 😆 I'm going to need these Lemmy devs to have a tad bit more experience before they start being so dismissive, especially to someone who's just trying to help.
- Hi there more experienced person, would you mind explaining the intricacies of the madness for a lowly n00b?
  Is it just 'cause it'd need the client to be constantly running to output the scheduling? So like, you set it to schedule a post and then you have to actually open it as an app before it would actually work if it wasn't running in the background when the time ticked over? Is there more to it? Any and all details you'd be willing to explain would be appreciated.
  Regardless, I hope you have a lovely day and best of luck with everything you're doing!
- A "client" in this context can mean anything, including another separate service.
  This makes no sense to have in a desktop/mobile app, but it certainly should not go to the server as well.

Are you actually /banned/ front participating on GitHub? That seems really petty.
- Apparantly it's for a week

Lemmy needs a fork, if only to kick the devs into gear with regards to actually working with/listening to the community. At this point a significant number of users have been lost because the devs have been largely unable to capitalize on previous waves on growth due to slow development. It's one thing if it's just a couple of devs working on the project and trying their best, it's an entirely different thing when a couple of devs are shutting out large numbers of contributors (frequently subject matter experts which they desperately need at this point) over relatively trivial issues. This isn't the first time this has happened and it won't be the last. Mbin is reviving Kbin as a project and we need something similar for Lemmy.
- Forks would murder the community is they weren't compatible
  
  They don't have to be incompatible.

Everyone is human, everyone makes mistakes. Sometimes people are also in a very bad mood and act weirdly because of that. Let's not make a big drama out of it.
- Sure. You're not the one with the seven day ban.
  
  Oh no a whole 7 days? How will they ever survive /s

Just an all round juvenile behaviour from the devs. Would expect a project like this to be more properly managed.

Sorry, which account is yours?
- The inflammatory one
  
  What's inflamatory about it? Genuine question.
- They are the account whose comment is collapsed as off-topic

This is ridiculously petty from the devs, and does make me seriously wonder about Lemmy's future.
- Idk if they care about a particular thing FOOS devs are often petty. I don't think it's actually a threat to the project. Like read unix mailing lists from Linus or whoever else, it can get downright toxic. e.g.:
  "BULLSHIT. Have you looked at the patches you are talking about? You should have - several of them bear your name. [...] As it is, the patches are COMPLETE AND UTTER GARBAGE. [...] WHAT THE F*CK IS GOING ON? " here
  
  I think Linus gets away with a lot because the value Linux delivers is pretty out of this world.
  Being rude to people trying to contribute in good faith seems like a way to send them to a competitor and if one exists, that doesn’t bode well for the project.

Hmm, where have I seen that before? Oh yeah, on PCSX2.
Your time and talent is better spent elsewhere. Don't even think about this any longer.
You wanted to help and they acted in this way. You made yourself clear, so it’s on them to reevaluate.
Your time isn’t free, so don’t spend it on stupid people. I know you’re passionate and want to help, but sometimes it unfortunately comes down to this.
- As a frequent user of pcsx2, what's the drama there?
  
  I tried to submit a patch to disable interlacing and enable full res rendering for Gran Turismo 3.
  refractionpcsx2 didn’t like it because the PAL version patch wasn’t fully finished yet. (This was because I literally restarted development in the middle of the PR I made.)
  Instead of telling me to resubmit once it’s done, refractionpcsx2 tells me “we don’t want your broken patches”, accuses me of sneaking in stuff and eventually bans me because I gave up on submitting it after growing very frustrated (4 or 5 days of work on the patches).
  I made a post in one of the emulation communities here on Lemmy if you want more details.

Fork! Fork! Fork!

I’ll just say (on the issue) I agree that everything possible to implement on a daemon running parallel to the instance should be implemented as such. That way the instance stays small and focused, and the dev team doesn’t get flooded with requests.

TBH the most juvenile person in that thread was you, by far. Let the devs manage tickets the way they want to, who are you to say that their form of discussion by opening and closing is wrong if it works for them? Your initial point was valid but then you started acting all high and mighty in a way that didn't contribute anything, I'm not surprised that they don't have time to deal with your shit, especially when you go and make a such a big drama over a 7 day ban.

As we say here: cheh

Just use the api, that's what we all do for scheduled posts. I don't need it built into the client or server, it already works with today's tools
- What tools are you referring to?
  
  I use https://github.com/RikudouSage/LemmyApi for my city community.

Epic.
Gotta love their Lemmy profiles too. Clearly not mentally ill.
- No need to stigamitize mental illnesses just because you disagree with someone or think they have a bad take
  
  I am mentally ill. It's not hard to not spot it.
  Perhaps the "maybe that will teach you a lesson" part of their comment indicates to a well preserved personality?

You kept posting offtopic comments which added nothing to resolving the issue. So I gave you a seven day ban, hopefully it will teach you a lesson.
- My first comment directly discusses the issue at hand. It wasn’t off topic. It’s clear you didn’t want any feedback on the issue because it makes you look bad. I explicitly talked about how client side scheduling is a bad idea that does not accomplish the goal of scheduling. And then I gave feedback directly concerning the exact issue I was commenting on of how your conduct was unfitting of lead devs of a major software project, where you squabbled in public in a really weird way, and you refused to even think about discussing the topic (closing the issue over and over again when your coworker had opened it and asked for discussion? Really dude?). Then you finally banned me without any warning or discussion of why.
  And no, it’s not going to teach me any lesson, all it did was teach the entire community you have no clue how to run an open source software project. No warning, no explanation, just juvenile marking of comments as off topic (they weren’t), closing of the issue your main dev opened and then boom banned.
  
  This isnt the first time Nutomic has reacted in such a egotistical way, especially when someone points out a flaw in the software. I've seen a few issues that were actual issues with the software--not feature requests--that he's closed and dismissed. One of the issues were mine. He definitely needs help with maintaining the software but I dont know how he expects anyone to help with the way he's been acting.
  
  My comment about scheduling in clients was from January and that option was already discarded by dessalines on the next day. No use in rehashing the same thing ten months later. All you are doing is creating pointless notifications for everyone. I know its not ideal to close and reopen an issue, but really why is it a big deal? We closed hundreds of issues recently which were outdated, invalid or already fixed. I accidentally closed one that still needs to be implemented and dessalines reopened it, so everything is fine. Certainly not a "squabble", and your comments added nothing at all.
  Its true that I shouldnt have given a warning first, but most likely you would have responded with another offtopic complaint so I didnt see any use in that. If you want to complain then do it somewhere else, not on the issue tracker which is meant for getting work done.
- The comments read like you banned the dev for making a telling point in favor of reopening the ticket.
  The lesson I take away is that your ego is more important to you than improving Lemmy.
  
  The issue was already open. I gave a temporary ban for posting pointless complaints which added nothing to resolving the issue.
- You want to teach a lesson? The only lesson you're teaching here is that you're a twat. You get some hardheaded opinion on someone's suggestion, refuse to listen to anything else, and ban them for explaining themselves. Grow up.
  
  Yeah this guy is acting as if he's a programming god who created something nobody could. This instance is called programming.dev, filled with programmers who know a little something about this programming thing. I’m a 15yoe self taught data engineer, and if I understand one thing, it is that anybody can learn programming and become great at it. I’m always proud of my code, but I never think my code is perfect. Programming and technology as a whole is constantly evolving, and what was clever/genius/wizardry yesterday is obsolete tomorrow. The only asset to a programmer is to be able to always learn new stuff, because there is always new stuff and better ways to do what you did in the past. I don’t even give detailed directions to my interns because I want to see if they do things in a different way that is better than the way I usually do things.
  
  FR this behavior is why people left Reddit.
- Can you point us to these comments so we avoid the same fate? Or perhaps contribution guidelines so we understand what to do or not do? I’ve never seen anyone banned for good faith contributions in OSS before.
  I tracked down the PR in the screenshot and it seems pretty innocuous.
  https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/4039
  
  They'd point you at the code of conduct link found in the very GitHub repo this incident concerns, but then you would realize how many of their own rules they've violated.
  
  Reopening the same issue multiple times after it getting closed is a dick move. The contributer was pretty clear about the reasoning why. You are just wasting people's time with feature requests like that.
- You demonstrated that you are unaccountable. It's a lesson for anyone considering investing in this project, indeed.
- Context:
- None of these really seem that off topic lol. Especially not the one marked off topic in the pictured post.
- You forgot old man at the end of the sentance!
  I don't have time to look into this, but my gut reaction is that everyone involved in drama like this is a knob.
- Quite the ego you have there, I bet you're fun at parties.
  Projects fail when developers alienate their contributors. Grow up and act like an adult.
- hopefully it will teach you a lesson.
  Egos are terribly ugly. Please put yours away.
  
  I agree. That’s why Rosanne has no ego. You go girl!
- hopefully it will teach you a lesson.
  LOL, come on.
- Are you 12?
  
  It's a psyop to make .ml look bad
- I'm assuming you're referring to comments they made in other Issues, not the one linked and not the one in the screenshot?
- Aggression and dishonesty aren't going to help. You'd be better off dropping the defensive arguing and realizing that you overreacted. It's okay to have screwed something up and admit it. You'd be getting a much better reaction if your response was along the lines of 'Whoops, yep. Guess I'm a bit of a hot-head sometimes, I'll try to look out for that.'
  But when someone literally can't ever admit that they could possibly be wrong, that they could possibly have overreacted in any way, how is anyone supposed to work with that?
  Everyone is wrong sometimes. Being intractable about it doesn't get you anywhere.
- Oh wow so manly and alpha. Way to show who is boss! My pants are off stud get over here!

140 comments