Remote work is still 'frustrating and disorienting' for bosses, economist says—their No. 1 problem with it is how difficult it is to observe and monitor employees
Remote work is still 'frustrating and disorienting' for bosses, economist says—their No. 1 problem with it is how difficult it is to observe and monitor employees
Although some bosses have recognized the benefits of workplace flexibility, many are still hesitant to adopt remote work permanently.
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There is a great way to monitor employee’s performance. This one weird trick will save you losing your best employees!
Are their tasks getting done on time and with quality work?
Congrats! You just learned how to treat your employees like adults.
Now kindly fuck off and let me continue to work in my underwear.
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But... but... but...
It's proving that my 25 years of being paid 3 times as much as the people I "manage" has been a complete scam the entire time!
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My supervisors are the worst with this.
I work a physical labor job and the supervisors are supposed to help with that. What they do instead is idie away chatting and spending inordinate amounts of time "doing" it work.
Thankfully, in a backwards sort of way, after one of them tried dodging their work when the venue needed to be turned over for a city council meeting, our manager has throughly chewed them out.
Still, I don't have much faith in them, but we'll see where that goes.
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Thats the thing... boses are basically saying that they cant do that. They cant actually measure how productive people are so they fall back on watching them like a hawk
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You're overlooking that most managers don't actually do anything, so they need desperately to justify their positions. I have a manager who has seven hours of meetings every day, five days a week. We make a fucking app. It barely changes month to month. What on earth are you spending 35 hours a week talking about?
The manager has so little to do they just micromanage everyone, and cause a massive backlog of work that doesn't have to exist.
I always thought that Office Space was satire, but it really is like that in a lot of companies. I spent more time updating managers than doing actual work since I started this position.
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So what do you do when it isn't on time or quality work?
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The same thing you’d do if they were working in an office. How does being remote change this?
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Make them a manager, obviously
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People rarely get a job with no intention of doing the work. If work is falling behind there's usually a reason for it that can be fixed.
In the rare case that the person is just taking the mick, warn, punish, fire. In that order.
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My company has a management mentorship program for remote employees. The boss actually travels to different employees homes and will stay with them and work with them at their house for the week. This keeps the execs happy enough to know that they’ve got middle management keeping an eye on the employees, while also allowing the remote work with no fuss. It’s an interesting approach for sure.
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Actually it's simple. Work well done? Cool, the employee is working. This "monitoring" mentality needs to fucking die.
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But then how do you justify keeping “middle management” hall monitors on a payroll after admitting they’re pointless?
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Well, they could focus on distributing or coordinating things and assembling results, things they now leave to those who's job it definitively not is.
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It's this thinking that allows the business bro to think that they contribute to the world while they are really no better than you average insurance company.
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"In probably unrelated news, remote workers love how they can't be micromanaged or watched over their shoulders and are frustrated and disoriented by return-to-office plans."
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The kinds of bosses that don’t want me working from home are the exact ones I want to hide at home from. The ones who already aren’t a micromanager I’m actually quite happy to come into the office and work with and around.
Been on both sides and Oof. Luckily now with a boss that’s happy to have me wfh but I don’t take him up on it too much cause I just genuinely like being in the office!
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You don't say!
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FYI, this posted twelve times, in case you aren't aware.
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The kinds of bosses that don’t want me working from home are the exact ones I want to hide at home from. The ones who already aren’t a micromanager I’m actually quite happy to come into the office and work with and around.
Been on both sides and Oof. Luckily now with a boss that’s happy to have me wfh but I don’t take him up on it too much cause I just genuinely like being in the office!
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Fascinating!
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The kinds of bosses that don’t want me working from home are the exact ones I want to hide at home from. The ones who already aren’t a micromanager I’m actually quite happy to come into the office and work with and around.
Been on both sides and Oof. Luckily now with a boss that’s happy to have me wfh but I don’t take him up on it too much cause I just genuinely like being in the office!
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Fascinating!
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The kinds of bosses that don’t want me working from home are the exact ones I want to hide at home from. The ones who already aren’t a micromanager I’m actually quite happy to come into the office and work with and around.
Been on both sides and Oof. Luckily now with a boss that’s happy to have me wfh but I don’t take him up on it too much cause I just genuinely like being in the office!
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Really?
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The kinds of bosses that don’t want me working from home are the exact ones I want to hide at home from. The ones who already aren’t a micromanager I’m actually quite happy to come into the office and work with and around.
Been on both sides and Oof. Luckily now with a boss that’s happy to have me wfh but I don’t take him up on it too much cause I just genuinely like being in the office!
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Bosses, right?
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The kinds of bosses that don’t want me working from home are the exact ones I want to hide at home from. The ones who already aren’t a micromanager I’m actually quite happy to come into the office and work with and around.
Been on both sides and Oof. Luckily now with a boss that’s happy to have me wfh but I don’t take him up on it too much cause I just genuinely like being in the office!
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A unique viewpoint!
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The kinds of bosses that don’t want me working from home are the exact ones I want to hide at home from. The ones who already aren’t a micromanager I’m actually quite happy to come into the office and work with and around.
Been on both sides and Oof. Luckily now with a boss that’s happy to have me wfh but I don’t take him up on it too much cause I just genuinely like being in the office!
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Whoa, deja vu!
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The kinds of bosses that don’t want me working from home are the exact ones I want to hide at home from. The ones who already aren’t a micromanager I’m actually quite happy to come into the office and work with and around.
Been on both sides and Oof. Luckily now with a boss that’s happy to have me wfh but I don’t take him up on it too much cause I just genuinely like being in the office!
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Managers, right?
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The kinds of bosses that don’t want me working from home are the exact ones I want to hide at home from. The ones who already aren’t a micromanager I’m actually quite happy to come into the office and work with and around.
Been on both sides and Oof. Luckily now with a boss that’s happy to have me wfh but I don’t take him up on it too much cause I just genuinely like being in the office!
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Really?
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The kinds of bosses that don’t want me working from home are the exact ones I want to hide at home from. The ones who already aren’t a micromanager I’m actually quite happy to come into the office and work with and around.
Been on both sides and Oof. Luckily now with a boss that’s happy to have me wfh but I don’t take him up on it too much cause I just genuinely like being in the office!
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This seems to be a popular opinion!
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I’ve been working remotely for almost a decade now and have been a manager for 6 of those years and I do the following:
Is [EMPLOYEE]’s work getting done? If yes then do nothing aside from thanking them. If no then talk to employee and/or start the corrective action process.
I have neither the need nor the desire to hover over them. They’re grown ass adults.
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A few issues with your method for the average manager.
What work exactly is the employee doing?
How do you know if it is being done correctly?
The average manager has no clue on either of these questions.
These managers rely on wandering around the office judging productiviy by who looks busy and holding constant meetings to hear themselves talk.
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I managed a support team of about 30 people at a fully remote company. I'd check their numbers of closed cases, review cases when customer feedback was bad, and take into account any other side projects they were working on.
Praise when people did good and have one on one talks with people that were falling behind to see what the cause was so we could work on it. It's not that hard.
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I have a pretty similar work flow. I stay on top of my crap, they stay on top of theirs and everyone’s happy. As long as they’re doing what they’re supposed to I don’t give a damn if they’re also taking some down time during their day.
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So don’t. Give your employees tasks and then leave them the hell alone. If they don’t get things done, find a new employee.
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I had a one on one with my boss today. He told me he was very happy that sometimes he doesn't even know what I'm doing, but he doesn't get any complaints and all my deliverables are on time. I am for help when I need it and before everything is urgent
Meanwhile he needs to babysit the two most senior employees and have daily meetings with them because they don't deliver anything on time and is going to force them to go to the office twice per week. I guess not everyone knows how to be responsible, but at least my boss knows he can trust some people
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Last meeting with my boss he told me "I don't know what you're doing but keep doing it because you're the most productive employee we've got." Having a job where it's easy to see what people accomplish day to day clearly helps though...
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I think this is what a lot of people here miss. Yes many people can be productive from home, but a few are not and I could see them ruining it for everyone on some teams. If you say 'just fire them' you either work for a terrible company or have never been a manager. It doesn't work like that, for good reason.
The other one I think a lot of people miss is training. I'm not worried about my senior engineers, I'm worried about my junior engineers. The juniors specifically complain about seniors not being around to train them and I worry about their career development. Obviously it depends on the role/type of work/etc, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect some time in the office for senior positions that are responsible for training others. My junior staff shows up to the office voluntarily every day because they see a lot of value in it in terms of technical growth.
And before you say they can just call/message. Sure, but they won't. Even in the office I have to go up to junior staff and only then do I get the 'well while you're here'. I know there's a lot of shit managers and shit companies out there but I think blanket saying ' any form of any level of in office work is tyranny!!!1!' is really oversimplifying things. Also, not everyone writes code for a living, you're in a bubble. I'll now accept all your hate
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This is what the problem is. If you trust your team, you don't need middle management whose sole purpose is to hover around. They're the ones complaining to uppers about wanting in-person time. If everyone's at home checking off their milestones, what do you need all these managers around for?
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I could write a long-ass reply to this, but I'll get to the point, I rock at multi-tasking and juggling all my priorities. It makes absolutely no sense to me that some random dude should get to what I can and can't be working on, for the only benefit of meeting made-up deadlines and not mixing "points" up in some burn chart. I am good at this because I know how to exploit my brain to fill my entire days with relevant work. If you assign me stuff at random because of office politic it is gonna be shit.
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what do you need all these managers around for?
I think a lot of careers are bullshit but we somehow tolerate them so the rich kids who went to college for them don't have to work at burger king.
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As a boss who thinks remote work is fucking amazing, these people are removed.
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And I can guarantee that they have no fucking clue if their workers are slacking off in the office as well. They seriously believe them being in the vicinitee actually encourages worker to work harder. What a bunch of clueless muppets.
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I do about half and half remote, and i do work differently in office than when at home.
In office, i handle physical elements of the job, and also end up being interrupted far more often by user requests.
When I'm at home, I'm able to get into a groove programming, and am still about 90% as effective remotely handling user requests.
For me the mix is good, and when it comes to long term goals, my home time is far more productive.
Today for example the system I'm working on was scheduled for in office, but I decided to work from home. Turns out, facilities removed all the furniture from the room so I'd have been sitting on the floor or working on it remotely anyway.
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I don't understand the monitoring and observing thing. Is the employee doing their work effectively and within the allotted timeframe? If so great, if not have a chat with them. Where's the problem?
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Because they have nothing to fall back on and they are not in control of the situation but are responsible for the situation. Corporate eunchs, responsibility without power. The project is a disaster and everyone knows it, there will be a fallguy when it burns to the ground. So they melt down. Try to control the one thing they can.
I get it, because I have seen my project managers over the years in the same position. Of course they start screaming about coffee breaks, they are looking at unemployment. It's a shitty situation.
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Our entire group is remote, and my boss has a fantastic way of structuring things. We have a weekly team meeting where we discuss our ongoing projects, and at the end of each week, he wants a short summary email of the work we did this week and the work we have planned next week.
That email is a godsend on Mondays to get myself back into the swing of things and remember what I was doing.
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Yep, that's very close to what I do! Pretty basic scrum/agile methodology. Daily stand-ups, weekly planning, biweekly retrospective, etc.
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Skill issue.
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This is correct.
They can't adapt or change. They don't know how as they are too comfy and stuck in their ways...
But then they force us to read "who moved my cheese"...
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It also likely reveals that for many of these managers, their role as micromanagers is completely unnecessary. So they have an identity crisis, unable to justify their position.
My department has transitioned to WFH and it's been wonderful. Every single employee much prefers it and my boss notes that productivity has increased while "issues" have subsided. That's what you want to see.
Now that I'm doing WFH, I will forever seek a job that enables me to do this at least 75% of the time.
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It’s almost as if most middle management is completely unnecessary and a massive drain on resources if they feel that most of their time should be spent monitoring their employees.
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When a MM is good they're extremely effective by clearly directing their team to the work top levels want done... But that assumes top levels know what needs to be done, can communicate it, the MM understands those priorities, and can apply top priorities to specific details of the team's work.
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My manager does what I think is the most effective form of middle management. He’s there to take on any blockers that I cannot solve myself. Otherwise, he just lets me do my work.
Though 9/10 times the blockers are created by other teams middle management 🙃. Either them not wanting to share their code, or them not wanting to work with me at all when it’s necessary to achieve my work. And yes it’s really as stupid as it sounds.
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Our regional manager quit, area manager went on a 2 week vacation and we all did better with them gone. Wonder why....
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"Bosses" can go fuck themselves, alongside the astroturfing scum that keeps pumping out articles trying to validate the idiotic decision of returning to offices.
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They are too stupid to actually review your work. No, they need to SEE you doing your work.
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They are living with the constant assumption you're not doing much work because that's what they are doing every day.
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Ding ding ding
"I am unable to focus for long enough to work from home, therefore nobody can and everyone is lying. Also, the numbers saying it's more efficient are lies."
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I manage a team of remote workers. About half of them are doing great. The other half are constantly struggling to meet their metrics/manage their time effectively. I've talked to them repeatedly about this and coached them on various ways they can do better but they're not getting it. If they were in the office where I could watch them it would be a lot easier to help them because I could see where they are messing up as it happens rather than just trying to talk through it with them after the fact based off recordings and reports.
That being said. I would never force anyone to work from the office if they didn't want to. They are all free to do so whenever they want and I advised that it might help them to get where they need to be but it's not a requirement. At this point their success or failure is their responsibility.
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I love WFH but there is no denying it has a learning curve. Those who have adopted it fastest are those who already have skill communicating remotely: IT, gamers, amateur radio, some other hobby groups. Those who are struggling are often just untrained communicators. Don't focus on training to them to work remotely so much as focusing on how to communicate as part of a team. I would start with asking them to check in once a day around a mutually agreed time just to say whether they're doing alright or being blocked by something. Anything that opens the door will get people talking more regularly.
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Definitely. I actually look at my teams’ overall performance as well as on an individual basis. Crazy concept right!? It would also stop an interoffice politics and drama that are massive time wasters.
My company just announced they aren’t interested in remote work even though our call center is all internet driven with heavy metrics and they know that office space costs thousands or tens of thousands a month. It’s baffling.
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You can monitor the work being done. Is the work being done? That's all you need to know.
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I think the biggest problem is that employers used to require that we do all the work we can do. The easiest way to achieve that is to observe that no one is slacking off. With Home Office there is suddenly a need to find out what is a reasonable workload. They seem to fear that they don't get occupy the employees 100% of the time and as usual on capitalism it is not enough when you produce enough bit when you produce all you can.
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I find it odd and oppressive how important this detailed oversight and control seems to be to employers. Home Office compatible jobs are mostly computer and thus "brain work", and here productivity never has related linearly correlated with "time staring at monitor". In office there would be plenty of smell talk, coffee breaks, diddling with smartphones and other ways to relax in between. These breaks are an important part of the productivity cycle, giving the mind a chance to process ideas and problems. In other countries/cultures there's more reliance on the concept of good faith: I work at a company that uses home office contracts by default. I can go to the office if I want, but I don't have to. Last time I've been there is five years ago, long before COVID. The company does not track our computer activity ( illegal here anyway) or working hours at all. Obviously it is still my duty to task the hours I spent working for clients for billing reasons, but that's it. The bosses expect that we spend our time in a manner that is beneficial to the company. If one runs out of work, it is expected to notify one's boss so be take can be found and assigned. Of course they still keep an eye out for slackers, but the metric never is working hours or office hours, it's "what have you spent your time on and how has it benefitted the company?" This approach leads to us employees reciprocating the trust shown. This is the first job I never minded putting in extra hours at critical days, because I know I'll just plan on more off hours or even off days during calmer weeks, giving myself to balance the hours. And no, I don't have to get approval from my employer to do that, as it is expected I schedule my time offs in a manner that is least disruptive. This means I just ask a colleague working on the same or similar projects if he's gonna be there so clients have a point of contact in case of emergency. I don't think I ever can work for a conservative, controlling employer again after having enjoyed this level of mutual trust and maturity in the working environment. It's almost as if I'm self-employed, but with all the benefits of being salaried.
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My job before the pandemic was already partly home-based. I ran a prototyping/short run job shop. We would do anything from weird trophies for strange award ceremonies to product prototypes to obsolete unobtanium car parts...you name it. I would spend about half my week at home communicating with customers, ordering materials, drawing up plans in CAD, then spend the rest of the week in the shop actually making things.
A LOT of my design work was actually done standing in front of my couch folding bath towels. Or in the kitchen loading the dishwasher. Tasks like that gave me something to do with my hands while I could zone out and picture the thing I needed to build, turn it over in my mind, look at all the details, how does this part attach to that part? What materials are needed here? How many rivets do I need? etc. I could stop folding towels the second I wanted to sit at the computer and draw/write something.
What the owner of the company wanted to know: Did I get the job done by the deadline set by the customer? Did the job meet the customer's design specifications? Was it on or under budget? Long as the answers to those questions were "yes," all was well. Because that's what let us bill the customer and make money.
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In office there would be plenty of smell talk, coffee breaks, diddling with smartphones and other ways to relax in between
But don't you miss the smell and all the diddling...? 😛
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It's actually not that hard. If the assigned tasks are being fulfilled within set parameters there's really nothing to observe and keep track of. What they're worried about and what they can't monitor and observe is what the employees are doing outside of those tasks.
My friend works from home he does all his work and in the down time he'll run errands, work out, and play pool at his local bar. Whatever. His work is fully completed and submitted and his performance views are top notch.
And that's pretty much the only thing employers need to be worried about. How well the work is being completed.
Fuck the office.
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My friend works from home he does all his work and in the down time he'll run errands, work out, and play pool at his local bar. Whatever. His work is fully completed and submitted and his performance views are top notch.
I had 2 people like that back when the pandemic started, the only "grown-ups" in the team - married and with children. They were doing some tasks manually but you could tell it's stressing them out because you could see them work until 8-9PM, sometimes even later. And you would constantly hear their kids in the background - probably a difficult adjustment to make at home in the beginning.
So I had to sit them both down and sell them on the idea of automating everything. They liked it (they prefer automating things also), but mostly said they'd never have time for it, because of all the priority stuff they need to work on. So I asked them to work on automating the tasks in-between other, more important ones, and if they were ever getting bothered by management, send them to me and I'd run interference. We came up with a plan, we had milestones for ourselves, the whole thing.
I had to lie in some meetings and claim we were working on what management wanted(and take a lot of shit for being late sometimes, or just flat out saying 'no' to requests, which didn't get me any fans either), but it was worth it in the end. A year and a half later, they were done. Instead of working together until 8PM, they were each working 2h per week by the end. The rest was their time to enjoy, I never asked how they spent it. Along the way, it was even visible how each automated task would clear their schedule even more.
A few months in, they started being really great together and working as a team, completely covering when the other was missing, not needing their hand held with anything... Just awesome to work with them. 4-5 months after we started, they were no longer doing overtime - there was no need to, the tasks which took the longest were now a script. 8-9 months in, you'd have trouble catching them both at work at the same time - they'd cover one for the other, and tasks would still get done. Easy to say to upper mgmt "yeah, they've been doing this intensive activity which usually takes a lot of time" - no questions asked. They would never drop the ball, and in return I'd never bother them about how they got organized, I trusted them completely to deliver on time and take care of the hiccups. Beautiful stuff.
We kept this to ourselves until we left the project (just a few months after we were done), at which point I had them create a presentation for management, showing how they improved the situation (wanted them to show off their achievements, it's not often that we get to do it. And maybe also allow the people taking over to understand why this was so important and to continue using the automated way instead of the manual way). I specifically asked for a page with statistics, cause I wanted to make sure the point got across. They proudly had that slide showing how the workload went from 80-100 man hours per week to 4 man hours per week. Upper management saw it, I could see the guy's eyes light up at this. Unfortunately they never understood how to use it and how to apply it to future teams. I checked back this year, they're using the manual way. Their loss.
Probably one of the best duos I've ever had the pleasure to work with. People with full lives and responsibilities, who got their work done, were reliable, were self-organizing, and the only thing they needed were some guidance and some backup when they were being pressured to finish some random donut's idea of "important tasks", and in return I could always sleep easy knowing that I don't need to worry about anything if it's in their responsibility, cause they will get it done. I appreciated them while working with them, and even more since not working with them.
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Your former coworkers are incredibly lucky that after showing management how to turn 80h/week into 4h/week, they didn't keep the automation train going. Because the very next thing they would do is lay off 90% of the staff and make the remainder still work full time.
Automation should do what you did - give people more time off. Just about every corp uses it to minimize labour costs, though.
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When the pandemic hit and I knew I was going to be working from home, I feared that my productivity would plummet and I'd miss the office. I reassured myself that it would only be a couple of weeks and then everything would go ban to normal. (Boy, was I naive!)
When I started working from home, though, I found that I loved it. I'm more productive without people chatting me up or managers looking over my shoulder.
I'm even eating healthier. When I went into the office, I'd pack all the food I'd think I needed for the day. I'd always overpack and then, with the food sitting right there, I'd snack throughout the day. Now, I can take the time to prepare healthy meals in my kitchen for lunch and snacks, while close, aren't within arm's reach.
I'm now permanently work from home and loving it. If I ever looked for another job, Work From Home would be a huge selling point. I'm not going to say I'd never go into another office, but if I had two job offers except one was work from home, I'd pick that one.
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Dude it's amazing. I had my reservations as well. I did a lot of preparation ahead of time, but now I'm never going back.
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It’s actually not that hard. If the assigned tasks are being fulfilled within set parameters there’s really nothing to observe and keep track of.
Apologies for nitpicking, but they do need to track if the task is completed or not, especially when there's a chain of tasks that need to be completed in a certain order for the overall goal to be completed.
Otherwise, yeah, I was coming here to post the same thing, you don't need to watch your workers while they're working, you just need to confirm that they finish the tasks you assign them. If they have blocks on their tasks they'll let their manager/lead know.
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Yeah tracking task completion and quality of the tasks done is all I'd care about too.
I'd even go as far as to set up a bounty board for one time tasks up for grabs. Each one comes with a payout according to how much additional work someone's gotta do to get it done, with big emergency items paying out vastly more than small time stuff that can be done at any time.
Stuff related to achieving company stretch goals would be given the pay bonus but also some fun extras like extra PTO or a "gift card" for a grocery trip or some other necessity expense. Basically just cutting them a grain dole check since subsidizing major household expenses is a proven means of giving people the space for social advancement.
It'd be my way of saying "I know you don't have to do this in your contract duties, so have a little incentive for the extra helping hand!"
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They're frustrated because it shows that they aren't necessary. People can just get on and do their work without some micromanager breathing down their neck.
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This is true. Your job as a "boss" should not be to command and control but rather to remove obstacles preventing your workers from doing their jobs effectively.
A good boss trusts their employees to do their work, but is comfortable working with them if there is an issue with their performance.
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Exactly this. I like my manager, but they busy themselves with their own job and making sure I'm not going to quit. If they had time to look over my shoulder, I would question their utility to the company.
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Micromanagers HATE this one trick.
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FFS, if you cannot monitor your employee's productivity via ERP software or meetings you are a shit boss and you should have been shitcanned a long time ago. Why the fuck is the mainstream media pumping out this shit day in and day out?
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Because commercial real estate is suffering. Got to pump the usage rates and occupancy numbers so the REITs can be rated AAA for investors!!1
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Nailed it. If you aren't working onsite then they can't write off the asset. This leaves businesses holding an expensive depreciating asset that highly impacts the balance sheet. Solution? Force people back to the office to get that sweet, sweet write-off.
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So that underpaid employees can spend most of their money on gas and sandwiches from the cafeteria round the corner
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They pump it out because it's what the people at the top of the societal pyramid want. And those are the top are really the ones with all that commercial real estate that's wasting away.
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Simple solution. Is the work getting done? Then your minions, sorry employees, are doing their jobs.
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A lot of the time there is no way to tell if the work is getting done because most of the jobs have at least some amount of bullshit job woven into it. Most of what people do is just time filler.
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Is the work being finished and timelines being met? Congratulations, you know all you need to know.
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But how will the managers know if the employees are being abused enough in workload? We can't have people doing an adequate amount of work. They need to suffer for the company.
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drinking alcohol during work hours is against company policy bud
im a commie but i can understand why workers need to stay in line or seek more Relaxing work.
of course if drinking is not against policy im drinking too if i dont got to anywhere
/idk lil drunk
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That’s a feature not a bug. Enjoy the increased productivity and the less having to be on top of things that don’t matter.
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"We don't know what you're up to!"
You don't know that in an office either. You trust us because you have your own tasks.
"We can't get a hold of you"
That's an individual's responsibility. Don't bunch me up with others.
The whole reason is jealousy and it sucks.
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Lol I don't need to be watched. I do my job and still end up finding office people screwing up badly. I've had to fix their mistakes.
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Most industries should do remote work as much as possible, specifically the ones that involves sitting in front of a computer all day: less traffic on the road, no commute time, more commercial office real estate that can be converted to housing/shops...
I don't really see the downside to any of this except to micro-managers.
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real estate billionaires will have their office buildings devalued.
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I think this is one of the major reasons they're forcing RTO down our throats
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But the micormanagers will find it much harder to justify their existence which is why they're freaking out.
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Because they’re fucking morons that don’t deserve to hold the reigns
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Why'd you just say "bosses" again?
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And THAT is the real purpose behind RTO; these pathetic losers feel like they’ve lost grip on those they perceive below them
They desperately need to feel in control. (Also they want to introduce things like second-by-second AI monitoring of each employee, this is already a reality; ever heard of WADU? Sounds bad but not that bad right? wrong)
Here’s some relevant snippets
I think everyone expects their employer to track them to some extent. It is pretty standard practice for employers to monitor and run analysis on things like building badge swipes and the amount of time spent connected when working from home. It has also become very common place for employers to record audio and video at the office. WADU is on a different level. It is an artificial intelligence & machine learning system for workforce human behavior. Starting at the moment you arrive to the building, WADU is tracking you using facial and speech recognition. Most JPMC offices and branches have been outfitted with some of the best HD AV security cameras. Whenever you are at your desk, know that there is a HD camera tracking you the entire time. WADU uses the array of HD cameras at the office to monitor all of your non-verbal body language all throughout the day. The collected information is then fed into the AI/ML system and it is used to update your WADU profile in real time. Every manager gets access to a dashboard that lists all the metrics about their subordinates. The productivity metrics about an employee start getting updated immediately after an employee logs into the system. If the employee is at the office, two bio-metrics are available, attention/focus and stress. The bio-metric feeds are updated from the facial and behavioral tracking. Having a bad day? Stressed about something? WADU has already noticed this and alerted your manager. Can’t focus? Not working at your usual pace? WADU has already noticed this and alerted your manager. Did something you normally don’t do? It’s possible WADU flagged it as suspicious and alerted your manager. WADU is also why they are pushing RTO or “return to office” so hard. Upper management does not care if some employees are more productive when they are working from home. They want everyone back in the office as much as possible so that their WADU profiles are being refined. Enhancing their insight into you is more important to them than better productivity from working from home. A lot of teams are now required to come in two to three days per week. Director level and higher are required to come in four to five days per week. Upper management wants to see everyone at all levels back in the office five days a week. They have invested millions into the WADU system, and they want to get a return on that investment. That only happens whenever people are in the office as much as possible.
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I wasn't really involved with it but my coworker did it. We outfitted a factory with indicating lights that showed if machines/people slowed down at a station. Didn't feel that great about that one.
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Yup, "but if I can't watch them like a hawk how do I know they're doing all that busywork they usually do to appease me on the fact that their job duties are all mostly done before the 40 hour max they're supposed to be working‽"
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It also seems it is being heavily pushed by corporations with large commercial real-estate investments and governments to "keep downtowns alive." There's a lot of money tied up in those sky scrapers.
BTW I'm 100% in support of fully remote work for climate and work life balance reasons, though my next job unfortunately probably won't be fully remote :(
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I'd probably get fired from a company that has that, lol. I'd do random things just to throw it off, odd body movements, etc.
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And THAT is the real purpose behind RTO; these pathetic losers feel like they’ve lost grip on those they perceive below them
That, and shore up the real estate office leasing market.
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I'm a call center manager. I don't really observe or control my team. I just look at their results.
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As it should be.
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Bless you. That's the way to be a good manager. Leave people be.
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Guess what...FUCK BOSSES.
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Tell me you're an incompetent manager without telling me you're an incompetent manager.
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Sounds like they need something to fill their days with AND they don't know how to do their own jobs. If you know the work well enough, you can understand milestone/status checkins and gauge progress enough to fill your useless reports.
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Well, I spend most of my day filling out TPS reports on my employees. And yes, I put my cover sheet on it. Then I print out three copies and give them to my three bosses.
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I spend most of my day filling out TPS reports
I see what you did there.
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If the work gets done, what's the problem?
This is how you realize that management spent a good chunk of their day just checking on employees while not actually doing anything, and now they're being exposed for having to find ways to fill their day while employees are still being as productive as they were previously.
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I know my manager is completely useless because one time his power went out and he couldn't remote on and no one noticed.
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If they can't squeeze every last ounce of life out of you, they aren't getting what they pay for.
I'm a manager now, probably not a very good one. We have more work than there is time for. It's obvious who is producing what. For us, there are some things you have to be in the office for, but there is PLENTY that can be done from home.
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Waaa! Poor babies.
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My old manager through covid required us to log the projects we worked on in a day in an outlook calendar to report our work hours. We had cellphones and were expected to be available during working hours to the public. Work productivity soared, and never had to be managed. Work was already tracked in the database anyway.
New manager barely does shit. Has little mechanism for oversight. You'd think itd be great, but no. My productivity is now ass because work assignments are all over the place with half of the supervisory tasks delegated to junior staff "leads" with no consistency. Most of my time is now wasted with email chains and update meetings so he can figure out what is going on.
I miss working all day from home.
Management is often the cause, not the cure, to low productivity.
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Endless update meetings to educate the middle manager was one of the biggest sign for me. Hour-long meetings everyday, mostly just to entertain a manager that was in over his head. I'd close the meeting every time thinking to myself that nothing of value was said. Years later, I still can't believe over 30% of my time at that place was burnt in useless meetings, not to mention how difficult it is to gain your focus when you're constantly expecting meetings.
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I don't want to be monitored.
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But The Boss (tm) wants to monitor you. They need it to justify their existence. That became abundantly clear when studies showed that productivity did not decrease when working from home. Bosses/managers still opposed to the idea.
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Well this clearly is a matter of bosses needing to get better at their jobs. To which they reply
Subject: Mandatory Implementation: Workplace Monitoring Measures Dear Team, In our continued efforts to ensure optimal productivity and discipline across all sectors of our organization, we are implementing new, non-negotiable monitoring protocols. Effective from NOW: - 24-hour Webcam Surveillance: All company workstations will be equipped with webcams that will remain enabled at all times. This is a non-negotiable measure to ensure the utmost accountability and discipline. Non-compliance or any attempts to tamper with, disable, or obstruct the webcam will result in immediate disciplinary action. - Blood Pressure Monitors: All team members will be required to wear mandatory blood pressure monitors during work hours. This is to ensure that every member is operating at peak efficiency. Inconsistent readings or failure to wear the device will be flagged. Your adherence to these measures is not a choice; it's a requirement. You were chosen to be a part of this team because of your talents and abilities, and it is expected that you will comply with all company protocols. Any questions, concerns, or objections should be kept to oneself as they will not alter the company's decision in implementing these measures. Let this serve as a reminder that productivity and discipline are the cornerstones of our success. Non-compliance will be dealt with swiftly. Your immediate and unerring compliance is expected. Regards, Mr. BossMan-
TIHI
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2025:
Subject: Compliance Directive 9A: Surveillance and Biometric Control Measures To All Units of Sector 542, Under Directive 9A, endorsed by the Supreme Oversight Committee, the following protocols are to be unconditionally and immediately integrated into your daily existence: Eternal Watch Protocol: All habitation zones will now be fitted with Panopticon Visual Capture Devices (PVCDs). These devices will record every corner, shadow, and molecule of your personal space, without interruption or darkness. Any attempt to obstruct, dismantle or deactivate will trigger the Containment Protocol, sealing off your habitation zone indefinitely. Bloodstream Vigilance: Each unit is to report to their designated compliance chamber for immediate installation of the Hemodynamic Regulation Implant (HRI). This implant will monitor your internal rhythms, ensuring maximum efficiency and loyalty to the company's objectives. Discrepancies in readings, suggestive of subversive thoughts or emotions, will result in immediate recalibration by the Oversight. Do not be deceived into thinking that silence or solitude remains available to you; the HRI is attuned to your very synapses. Deviation from the norm will not be tolerated. Remember, resistance is futile. The future has arrived, and it has been optimized for the benefit of McDonaldsAppleShell. Your complete submission ensures the smooth operation of our collective machinery. Every heartbeat, every thought, every shadow now belongs to the Oversight. Do not seek escape. Do not whisper rebellion. The all-seeing eye is upon you, and the machinery of compliance is inexorable. Conform. Comply. Conquer your weaknesses. Your existence is the price for the progress of McDonaldsAppleShell. Ever watchful, Supreme Director Smith Overseer of Sector 542, Supreme Oversight Committee.
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That's from a Black Mirror script, right?
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I've been remote since 2019. It's great!
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Their No. 1 problem with it is how difficult it is to observe and monitor employees
Um, no. Like others here have pointed out, the overwhelming majority of office workers have to turn in countable digital product of some sort for their job production. LOOK AT IT. Was it the quantity and quality required of them? Well, there you go.
Also, what the hell are you on about, hypothetical boss? In today's technical age, so many bosses can just remote view a worker's screens (even when the workers don't know that it's happening in real time).
It's creepy to spy, but if you really suspect someone's away from keyboard extendedly when they aren't supposed to be, you can literally just look in.
"I can't monitor my employees" is such a weird complaint when counting is a thing and tech tools are out there designed to let you overview your workforce.
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So their own job has no value. Got it.
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Is the work getting completed? Then you don't really need to monitor them.
What KPI's could you be measuring by hovering over someone's shoulder while they work? Their APM?
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WTF is an KPI?
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Key Performance Indicator
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But the biggest disadvantage of remote work that employers cite is how difficult it is to observe and monitor employees
I'm sure these employers hire external contractors. Do they insist on observing and monitoring those contractors? Are they going to insist their contracotr's employees be active on Teams at all times?
I hate the idea that if working from home for an employer is somehow different from working as a freelancer from home.
Pre-pandemic, bosses relied on desk visits and peer monitoring, which occurs when co-workers notice and comment on each other’s work, to keep employees on track in the office, and there is no clear replacement for them in a remote setting, Pollak explains.
Again: If they hired a contractor, would they want to "drop by their desk" to comment on their work? Why do they insist on treating employees like Clients from Hell?
“It’s hard to know which measure these software programs track even matters,” Pollak adds. “A lot of knowledge work is done in video meetings, or offline in phone calls, research and brainstorming, and it’s impossible to quantify all of that.”
Yes, exactly. So stop trying to quantify it. Quantify the results of that knowledge work. A results-focused management style works best for remote work, not hovering over your peons waiting for them to make a mistake.
“If the pandemic and ‘great resignation’ taught us anything, it’s that managers need to be intentional and engaged with employees to be truly effective,”
Holy cow, managers need to talk to their workers! Thank The Invisible Hand this priestly Economist has brought this nugget of wisdom from the Ivory Tower.
Also, I love that the image for this article is a bleak and soulless office. I don't know how people see this and still wonder why nobody wants to be there.
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So glad my boss trusts our team. Quite literally only have a 30 minute meeting with everyone, once a week.
Very rare they ever ask anything from us. If they ever do, I make sure it's a priority and it gets done.
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I thought you would say 30 minutes a day, and here I thought "hey not so bad". 30 minutes a week?! We opened every workday with 45minutes to 1h and a half "stand-up meetings". We had full days dedicated to talking about scrum every now and then. Nothing ever got gone, nothing worthwhile was ever discussed, it made my hate my profession. Man I am not going through that ever again.
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You sound like you worked at my last company also. Scrum is good in principal, but in practice it was just another thing people used to pretend they were valuable rather than actually being valuable. You know you’re doing it wrong when you have to have meeting about how to have meetings before each meeting.
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When I was supervisor at my old job, that's quite literally all I did. The title at this position is technically a step down, but everything else has improved.
Better pay, benefits, full wfh, and work load is 1000% less.
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We can't tell you off for taking a moment to look at your phone or for wearing headphones unless you are in the office; this is how we justify our positions.. so despite the economic, environmental and quality of life improvements we are demanding you return so we can continue to justify our pay and position.
Also fuck you, and get in your cubicle removed
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Finally, some truth. Micromanagers can’t show their worth because they can’t micromanage.
Micromanagement needs to be fired. It’s old school and outdated.
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Lool, without having subordinates in shouting distance they're realizing they produce very little themselves, and now the subordinates can organize themselves. God forbid you do some of the work they're doing and help them out a bit eh?
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Daily reminder: economists work for banks, not for us.
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Sounds like they need retraining or firing then. They need to learn some CRM skills.
I shopped around and recently got a new CRM that works better for what our company is doing, and helps keep tabs on everyone's workload and time tracking and it's so good.
And I'm not even managing anyone, my department is a one-man army. It's just really really nice to be able to hold yourself accountable, take relevant notes for future reference, and see what workload I have every day. I'm still busy and stressed to fuck, but the load off my brain trying to remember every single job I have is phenomenal.
I don't need a meeting or a phone call or an hour standing at anyone's desk, I just open a dashboard and go 'Cool I can see what's coming, whats been done, whos working on it, and all the documentation and logging I need to be informed about how it effects my work' in seconds.
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Managers who don't know how to manage are confused by being asked to manage.
Fucking idiot assholes. Even my most type-a micromanager boss in decades managed to keep tabs on me remotely.
Sure there are spyware tools that monitor everything you do on the computer. But it sure seems like a better use of time and money to just hire good people, trust them, and evaluate the quality and timeliness of work.
These idiot companies should spend some time training managers how to do their goddamn jobs effectively.
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There are three major ways that managers are selected: Nepotism, Asskissing, and Technical Competence.
Having skills of how to manage people is not required.
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I'm pretty sure nearly everyone who was WFH in my area had to return to the office because my morning commute went from 25-30m to 35-40m. Doesn't sound like much but the traffic has gotten so busy the long way is faster most mornings.
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They don’t know much about spyware then
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Breaking: Bosses' number 1 problem with remote work is actually the best part
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I spent about a year fully remote, and have been hybrid since the pandemic. I am happy!
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Translated: Bosses don't know how to pretend to add any actual value to the workflow of their employees when they aren't constantly looming over them.
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"And here's something else, Bob. I have eight different bosses right now."
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Way back when I started out in IT, I had a job as Junior admin for the callcenter and two distribution centers of this multinational company.
The call center and distribution center were in Belgium, the second distribution center was right across the border from the call center, in Germany.
So, because I was stationed at the call center, the call center manager considered himself my boss and because I was stationed at the distribution center in Belgium, the distribution center manager in Belgium considered himself my boss and because I was stationed at the distribution center in Germany, the distribution center manager in Germany considered himself my boss.
That makes 3.
But, since I was stationed at the call center and trained to program the call center phonesystem, the European manager for the phone systems considered himself my boss.
That makes 4.
But since I was a Junior Admin, the Belgian AND German IT department managers considered themselves my boss.
That makes 6.
But since I worked for both Belgian and German locations, the European IT department director considered themselves my boss.
That makes 7.
But, because I was working there when HQ in the US was updating all IT infrastructure in Europe, the US IT manager and Internation IT directors considered themselves my boss.
That makes 9.
I was fired for taking tasks by hierarchy and not jumping to do what the manager of the German distribution center told me to do.
And only reason this was possible is because, since I worked in both Belgian and German locations and had to travel to the UK and Spain for the network upgrades directed by the US IT department, I was actually internally in the company officially part of the consultants/sales department, because they were the only ones that had specific travel reimbursement structures, that would allow the company to reimburse me for my international travel.
That makes 10.
And the manager of that department? The German distribution center managers wife.
I was so goddamn stressed working there I went from having a full head of hair to having a full bald head with some fluff on the sides.
That's also when I swore to never work as an employee for a multinational or US company ever again.
I have worked for many as a consultant, but always on my terms and stipulating in the contract there's one single person in that company that can assign tasks to me.
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I’m just glad that so far my job has held at 2 days in office. It still sucks and I’m way less productive in office than I was when I was WFH full time, but it could be worse.
I think this issue does reflect on bad management. They don’t know how to monitor their team’s output, justify their existence or curb bad employees without being in the same room. That’s on them, not WFH.
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More like how do they justify their jobs. Supervisors can't afford for employees to be judged on results. They need to have a system where they can look over shoulders else what good are the supervisors.
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I work so much more efficiently at home. I'm mostly remote. Come in a couple days a month. The days I go in are trying to zone out all the office distractions. Also I have to use a hotel docking station setup that I will always have an problem with at least something about it. A sizeable portion of my day is just getting setup and into a work state. I work in software development with cloud platforms. Going into the office I know I'm gonna get fuck all done. Also the Internet is way worse on site.
However there is a few people on my team that do fuck all everyday. I keep hearing rumors that they are gonna make us come back. It's frustrating because you know the few ones that are taking advantage are gonna be an easy excuse for management to call us in.
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If the work gets done, then congrats there are no problems
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Hey Boss -
Ever since TV remote was invented, you don't even walk up to the TV to change the channel - why the fuck you need to call us back to the office and breath over our necks? Unless you are a pervert (a lot of you indeed are) - you don't need to stare at our faces (or our asses) to assess our work, learn to embrace the zoom age !
You reportee (who is still hanging around because the pay is okay, I can work from home, and don't have to bear your shitface every morning)
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I am going to the movies.
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there is a lot of steps and landmines to avoid in order to do it fairly and responsibly
A lot of less steps to do it the other way.
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My team can't work remote since 99% of their job is fully hands on. As long as the work gets done and crunch time is crunch time I don't care.
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Won't anyone think of the people in positions of authority?!
Meanwhile, how often do you see stories about the dehumanization and police harassment of the human beings our society banishes to our innumerable tent cities to die of exposure for the crime of being sub-optimal capital batteries?
Shit like this is why I laugh when politicians and oligarchs show concern for things that "threaten our way of life." As if our society with core values of greed and sociopathy has anything of actual value worth maintaining.
From the perspective of the bottom 80%, let this capitalist dystopia collapse into dust. From the perspective of those homeless Americans left to die by our supposedly ethical nation, it'll just be another tuesday, but maybe one where they won't be harassed or killed by law enforcement simply for seeking shelter from the elements.
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translates to: micromanage, take credit for the success of the Employee, and blame for the Employee for the Bosses idiot decisions.
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Oh poor poor managers, you don't get to pick our noses all day long and time our pee breaks? How unfortunate.
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Uh-huh... Mmm hmmm... Ok, decent read that brings up some interesting points from the perspective of the employer. Employers need to monitor, but monitoring destroys morale. Do you propose a solution?
Invest in middle managers as connecting leaders between front-line employees and upper management and encourage them to work one-on-one with their direct reports to outline clear workflows and expectations.
FUUUUUU-
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How did they monitor people in the office? If they weren't able to point to SMART metrics that show work getting done, wherever that work gets done, they're bad managers. "Asses in chairs" is not a SMART metric. "Active on Teams" is also not a SMART metric.
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So have middle managers do middle management stuff is the solution?
Inceedible!
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Middle management can't do its job? Hire more middle managers! Brilliant!
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Dumbasses don't know how to do proper metrics.
I'm personally fine with going into the office but if you're job can be done from home and you are just as productive, work from home.
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Skill issue.
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I mean honestly, remote work would do wonders for being anti union
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I know it won't be popular, but I don't possibly see how remote work is better for work itself.
I was WFH for about 10 years. I had my first child, needed to parental leave (from a very small company), and they gave it to me. But I offered to "WFH" when the baby was napping and stuff so if they needed me for things I could make it work. Even after the time was up, things were still going well, and my commute was long, so they agreed to allowing me to WFH a few days a week. Eventually we moved because of my wife's job and then the pandemic, and I told them they either had to fire me or allow me to WFH 100%. They agreed to the latter.
It was a god send, without a doubt. The flexibility I had while my wife was busying with medical school/residency/fellowship was amazing. Being able to run out the door in the middle of the day for stuff was fantastic. And not having to commute is a thing of beauty.
However, after a couple of years, I realized how damaging it was to my productivity. No more ad hoc meetings where we grabbed a couple of engineers and sat down and quickly brainstormed something. It's much harder to reach out to someone over the internet than it is to just turn around and ask something. My career also started to stagnate.
When we finally settled down, I decided that I would focus on my career and pursue a new job. The new job is hybrid and, also amazingly, is only about a 15 minutes bike from my house. I don't know how I would have been able to start a new job without being in person. It's so much easier to just ask someone a question than it is. The collaboration we have is also much better than the previous 8 or so years I was fully WFH.
And as this article points out, it's the flexibility that I think is the best thing. No one bats an eye if you say you need an extra day at home that week. Or you need to go home because the plumber is coming. Or you're stepping out for a couple of hours for the doctor. This seems to be a permanent fixture at my new job.
Now, as I said, this is purely from a work perspective. Individually speaking, staying home is way better, especially if you have a shitty commute. I get that and would never say anyone should go back into the office. But I think the number of people who are actually way more productive at home are few and far between, the rest just really like the set up so they'll pretend it is way better for work, or even convince themselves it is way better. But the more and more the numbers come in, the more and more it's clear that generally speaking people are less productive with remote work.
It's going to end for most, and it's probably best to think about what best suits the needs to the individual and the business rather than clinging to the idea that it is superior in all ways.
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But I think the number of people who are actually way more productive at home are few and far between
You're assuming everyone has the same career/job, life experiences, and perspective that you do, as well as the same home office situation.
At the end of the day, they don't have to be more productive, they just have to be productive enough to complete the tasks their boss gives them to do well.
Finally, chatGPT quantity of comment tends to be overlooked. You might want to try to make your point more succinctly.
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You’re assuming everyone has the same career/job, life experiences, and perspective that you do, as well as the same home office situation.
I would argue the opposite. It's the numbers that tell me it isn't working well. My personal experience just backs that up. All of the people claiming that it's been good for them, if they aren't blowing smoke or deluding themselves, are the ones thinking their individual experience is the same as others.
At the end of the day, they don’t have to be more productive, they just have to be productive enough to complete the tasks their boss gives them to do well.
Unless the question is which is better from a productivity and a business perspective.
Finally, chatGPT quantity of comment tends to be overlooked. You might want to try to make your point more succinctly.
I guess I could have done without my personal anecdote, but this is what leads to unnuanced and thoughtless positions. Like the current top level comment.
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Purely anecdotal and subjective experience here, but my long-term productivity was improved by wfh. I have autism and ADHD, and certain accommodations that I need to be productive can only really happen at home. Asking for the lights to be dimmed or even to listen to music to keep from losing my mind during a 12- hour shift on no sleep was basically impossible (deemed unreasonable for the employer to allow), and I personally needed more than just that to keep up. I've had to leave multiple jobs due to cracking under the stress of the environment and being unable to focus long enough to actually work anymore. Since becoming 100% wfh, self-regulating is a no-brainer most days, and I can maintain productivity for longer stretches of time with shorter recovery periods for burnout. The working world is harsh for certain people, and it stops many neurodiverse groups from actually being able to contribute our parts to the ever-hungry capitalist hellscape we cling to for our livelihoods.
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Sure, I understand that it's definitely true for some people. Which is why I said they were few and far between.
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The part about remote work that has caused things to stagnate is that most companies still aren't setup to hire out of their own state. So it's not done much to open the gate to opportunities that are a great fit and can be done remotely, because I'm in the wrong state. And there's still an attitude of "what would somebody in that place possibly know about things here". The likelihood I will ever be domiciled in the same place as where my perfect job happens to be is super unlikely. This is 95% employers just discriminating based on location because they don't want to do paperwork or have an open mind and 5% not having the benefit of in-person collaboration.
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There's definitely some real benefits to in person collaboration, but even when I'm in the office (a large majority of the time since I need to test on hardware) I mostly just send a slack message for 99% of things. If it's a really pressing need I'll go find them in person, but I could also just call people online.
Whiteboard sessions are better on a physical whiteboard, but I think everything else goes perfectly fine over chat or voice call.
Instead, I find motivation to be my biggest reason to come into the office. Sure, I still waste a lot of time on lemmy in the office, but I'm still more productive more often when I'm at my desk.
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Instead, I find motivation to be my biggest reason to come into the office.
Completing the tasks so you can get your paycheck to pay your rent/mortgage doesn't do it for you?
j/k, kind of.
In all seriousness, lack of motivation can hit a human being anywhere, especially they're doing a task they don't like doing.
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Agreed. I'm a supervisor of inspectors and it is a lot easier to have impromptu meeting and assign tasks in person when I can just look around the room. We did WFH during covid for about 2 years and it was definitely harder to monitor work being done and make sure everyone was on the same page.
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I agree flexible is better than full wfh. On top of everything else you mentioned, going to work gets you outside, at least briefly, and gives you a chance to interact with people you don't already know.
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gets you outside, at least briefly, and gives you a chance to interact with people you don’t already know.
So does grocery shopping.
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Ah yes, arguing against all the real evidence because of your feelings, typical
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