Google will now make passkeys the default for personal accounts
Google will now make passkeys the default for personal accounts
Support was first offered in May, but now Google suggests it as the default choice.
Passkey is some sort of specific unique key to a device allowing to use a pin on a device instead of the password. But which won't work on another device.
Now I don't know if that key can be stolen or not, or if it's really more secure or not, as people have really unsecure pins.
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Man, the amount of fearmongering and anti-Google rhetoric in this thread makes me sad. Passkeys are almost entirely a good thing and are supported by many big and small companies.
No, it won’t lock you into Google, it’s an open web standard. Google will have an Authenticator, Apple will, and third parties will spring up to support it as well. And there’s no lock in, you can get a new passkey when you want to switch devices or providers.
No, someone who gets access to your device can’t get access to everything if you have basic security hygeine. Secure your passkeys with a secondary password or use biometric authentication.
Yes, it’s almost a straight upgrade to text passwords. They are immune to phishing attacks and other social engineering tricks, and you don’t need to remember long strings of numbers and letters anymore.
Do your research people, sheesh.
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This is starting to really get on my nerves, and I feel like discourse on the fediverse is worse; basically the attitude is that if it's not FOSS and self-hosted, it's shite. That attitude is fucking grating for the rest of us.
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The irony is that it's an open standard. There are FOSS implementations you can self-host. Server side, client side, soft token, hard token. Everything.
https://github.com/herrjemand/awesome-webauthn
People on this thread are just really ignorant, even self-proclaimed security experts.
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This and if any business anywhere manages to reache a significant level of success — and has the nerve to charge money for their service — it’s a sign that capitalism doesn’t work and corporations are inherently evil.
I just assume it’s an age thing.
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Big tech have done this to themselves
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An online authentication system is quite literally the one central thing your whole digital life depends up on. If it's broken, it can completely f'up your life and remove you from existence in the digital space. So there is extremely good reason to be skeptical when big-company tries to force you into a new thing. Especially when said big-companies have a history of f'n things up on purpose (remember G+ forcing real names on everybody and bundling previously unrelated accounts into one monolithic one?). Or take HTTPS, which was sold us with "bringing more security", when what it actually did was kill large chunks of the open and self-hosted Web.
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The problem with passkeys is that surrender of a physical key is not protected by the 4th amendment and subject to seizure. From a security perspective, I agree that passkeys are good. But I only use a physical key as a secondary factor. Never a primary.
The courts have ruled that you can't be forced to give up a password or passcode. (We'll have to see if the current court will keep this precedent.)
Until we get better privacy protections, I'm not trusting passkeys whole cloth.
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You can protect your passkeys with a knowledge element.
But I don't see your use case. Passkeys are about logging in to webservices, not about protecting devices.
Web service providers can always be ordered to surrender your data by a court. Very few of them even try to encrypt your data. And for those that do, a court order could still force them to intercept your password and decrypt the data.
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There is no implementation right now that enables you to own and manage your own passkey backups without Google it icloud.
Additionally, the attestation feature is one step away from banks and other sites mandating specific implementations, preventing people from using software tokens or OSS managers.
Passkeys is great, and I am eager to recommend it to everyone, but without those items addressed, it's a trap door, and one bitflip away from very strong lock in.
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My understanding is that, currently, a PIN or password is protected. So if you secure your phone with one of those, access to it is under 4th amendment protection. Given this, I'm curious how passkey legality would work out since it's a physical key, but access to use it would still require a knowledge element.
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Google is a lot of things for a lot of reasons. This isn’t one of them. There’s plenty of reasons to bash them without needing to pull shit out of one’s ass
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While I would agree this sounds more secure, I'm always worried about people getting further locked in to Google's products.
Hopefully this system won't take accounts "hostage" by requiring you use Chrome to log in to them, but it's Google, so...
EDIT: I'm wrong, passkeys are stored per-device and can be shared between devices using an open standard. Here's a video explaining the basics. It addresses my concern at around the 2:50 mark.
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Passkey is an open standard. It's not Google specific.
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That's good to hear. I don't know much about passkeys, and I should really spend some time learning about them. Didn't mean to fear-monger, but I guess I'm getting more cynical these days.
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Updated my root comment to reflect this.
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it's passkeys. they are getting integrated in a lot of stuff right now, including password managers like bitwarden
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Use a yubikey, that doesn’t vendor-lock you to an OS ecosystem. They make one with nfc so it’s not a pain to use with your phone.
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I'm not sure if this is universal or specific to the last site I tried to use my Yubikey with as a passkey, but it only would allow it to be used as 2FA, not actual passwordless authentication.
I assume this is because Yubikeys don't create a secret for each individual website I suppose? Not exactly sure about that one.
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Mot likely it won't need to have chrome. However maybe Google services may be required.
However it is also very likely, if a device cannot support such feature, it will only require a password and 2fa.
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Nope. Not going to have my entire digital everything depend on me not losing or breaking a single electronic device.
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From Ricky Mondello, who works on passkeys at Apple: “If it’s device-bound, it’s not a passkey”:
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You won't need to?
The key is for a single device. Logging in on another one is going to generate another key.
They key is secured with the pin of the device, so when you try to log in, you can use the pin to log in, and not the password.
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It's definitely more secure, since stealing someone's phone is much more difficult to scale up compared to stealing passwords.
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I don't think that access to your personal data/email/files being dependent on a battery-powered electronic device is a great idea, to be honest.
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That's why they invented chargers, eh.
But more seriously, there are recovery procedures if you lose a phone with or without a backup and if you are willing to share the keys with a cloud provider, you can also store them there and use them on any of your devices.
Or you can get something like a yubikey if the battery aspect is really that problematic for you.
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My understanding of Apple Keychain is that every credential is useable from every device, and can be backed up and restored to a new device. Most importantly Apple doesn’t have access, although we have to trust them on that
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It's not quite unique to a specific device. You can store your private key in a password manager or something similar, and then access it from other devices
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Depends on your personal choice. You can definitely limit them to a single, hardeneddevice if you want the highest level of security.
For most users and most situations, a synced solution will be preferable.
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But it becomes much easier if you want to compromise a specific target individual
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Me, at the bank:
Robbers, as they enter the bank: everybody freeze
Me: ah shit
Robbers: everyone give me your phones
Me: aw hell naw
mission impossible style shootout
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I have a long list of questions about PassKeys and none of this articles explains them well enough.
- Does Android have it build in AOSP or Google Play Services?
- Would it be possible to actually see your private key on Android? Like export them to a file?
- Does they work without third party service? Can it be just me and the service I am logging in, or does it require my servers from PassKey provider (like Google, Bitwarden, 1Password) to work?
- Can it be used offline? For example, can an offline device create token that second online device could use for login? (Like TOTP codes).
- Does they work on other Internet services than the Web? In other words, does they work purely over HTTP and webviews or can they be in future used to login in for ex. SSH servers?
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- Since passkeys are basically asymmetric keys, SSH technically had "passkeys" for years.
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Yes, but that's missing the important part.
Passkeys is not primarily about asymmetric keys. It's about applying asymmetric keys to the Web as an open standard.
The W3C Web-Authn standard is what makes it important and revolutionary.
This is just as important as HTML, CSS and ActivityPub.
Finally we have an open standard that integrates in the web and offers a high level of security.
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Just an example of protocol different than HTTP.
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Nothing of that?
You don't need to export or know what is the key.
The key is different for each device.
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You don't need to export or know what is the key.
But is it possible in the implementation of Android/iOS?
Backups are a thing. With SSH keys I have different key for every device too, but as they are stored in an accessable file (as all computer data should be) they are backed up with the rest of the system.
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Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/6lBixL_qpro?si=wFFQwrfjQBKDHs5B
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
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Fuck google.
passkeys sounds good on paper and for most users on day to day stuff should improve their security. But the failure path is horrible and it happens at the worst case most of the time. If I have the keychain on the phone and lose it or is out of battery and usually happens that I need to access some service like email, then if the email provider starts forcing people to use passkeys or you only have that method on, then I'm locked out of the account and can't use email. This will happen for all other services that one may need to use on an emergency. Personally I don't like it.
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Ummm???? What keychain? Passkeys don't have physical keys. I think you'd better learn more before cursing Google. BTW Apple supports them as well.
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“Keychain” is often used colloquially to refer to a piece of software that holds passwords and other secrets, which can include passkeys depending on the implementation.
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Someone else correct me if I’m wrong but it works similar to PGP.
Background info:
- Your device generates two keys, a private key and a public key
- The public key can be given to anyone and the private key stays with you
- The public key is used to encrypt data and the private key is used to decrypt it
Usage:
- You sign up for a service with all the normal info minus a password and click submit
- In the background, a private key is generated and stored in iCloud Keychain, Google Passwords, or a 3rd party password manager (so all your devices can access it). A public key is also generated and given to the service
- Now you try and login. You enter your username and click login
- In the background, the server encrypts a challenge, token, or some piece of data and sends it to your device
- Your device decrypts that piece of data with the private key associated with the website
- At this point, your device either sends the decrypted data back to the server in exchange for an access token or maybe you decrypted the access token (not sure exactly how that will work. If it’s the former, the data would still be encrypted via ssl so only you and the server would see it)
- Now you are logged in
Closing:
So, it’s supposed to be more secure because every time you login, you never type in a password that gets transferred to the server for verification. The server is sending your device data to verify so that it can then verify you. This mainly prevents phishing and the reuse of passwords but I suppose if someone hacks into your iCloud account or whatever, they have the keys to the kingdom 🤷♂️
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As you point out, the single point of failure is access to the passkey repository. Of course, this will usually be 2FA, so much more secure than simple passwords which people usually employ.
One major issue, IMHO, is vendor lock-in. I’ve no doubt Apple is going to make migration away from iCloud a huge pain in the ass. It’s just another way they’re going to make it difficult to leave their ecosystem.
I’m also worried about backups. People lose access to their Google and Apple accounts routinely for any and no reason at all. Will these keys be stored in the cloud? If so, access to EVERYTHING is just a capricious random algorithm away from being lost.
I wouldn’t touch any passkey system which doesn’t provide a seamless way to migrate away especially if I’ve lost access to my Apple/Google account.
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Having a seamless way to migrate away is itself a security risk, since that method could be used by attackers to compromise the key store. The migration path for any of the major players (Apple, Google, Microsoft, Yubikey) involves logging into each site you used a passkey with, adding a new one from your new passkey store, then revoking the old passkey.
Password managers that store Passkeys may handle this differently, though, and are your best bet if you want migration flexibility.
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How does this work with checking my emails on a public computer in a library, for example? Somehow my private key needs to be shared with the library pc?
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Not necessarily. I can’t imagine they’d want you to login to your iCloud or Google account on a public computer. It will probably work how Microsoft “Authenticator” works or how when you try logging in to iCloud or your Google account when you have 2FA turned on:
- Type in your username and click submit on the library computer
- The service on the computer tells you to look at your phone
- In the background, the service sent an encrypted challenge to your iCloud account
- All your devices receives a notification asking if that’s you trying to login
- You pull out your phone, click yes
- In the background, your phone decrypts the challenge and sends it back to the server
- The server verifies its you who is trying to login and logs you in on the library computer
No sharing of keys necessary
Edit: that was just a guess and there are likely a few ways logging in can be achieved on a public computer without needing the private key on that computer. My knowledge on passkeys is surface level, I haven’t really taken the time to look deeply into them yet
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Wouldn't the private key stay in your phone and you'd be exchanging a challenge and a response?
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people have really unsecure pins.
Ok but what's unsecure with '1111' as long as I'm not telling the order of the digits to anybody?
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It can be cracked in less than a second?
If someone never loses their phones, laptop... Maybe it's secure.
But if someone steals it, how secure can it be? Is the key protected by the pin encryption? If so the encryption is now useless.
Here is a French video about Micode interviewing the French DGSE : https://youtu.be/g_jEz6aF2b4?si=-sUAIvDf4F7-7kGc
They crack the phone security in 4 seconds with the pin beeing : Mic0rp2022. The software used is hashcat, an open source tool.
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Pretty sure he was being sarcastic
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Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/g_jEz6aF2b4?si=-sUAIvDf4F7-7kGc
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
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Am not buying the idea. It sounds great on paper but in reality it doesn't feel better. So idea is you have private and public keys, like many other forms of encryption out there. Private is stored on your device, and public is stored on account holder, like Google. Since keys are mathematically linked anything signed with private key can be verified by public key and vice-versa.
This is great technology and has been proven for decades now. It essentially means your device and account holder can exchange data without anyone ever finding out your private key since it never leaves your device.
However, issues. Keys are backed up somewhere and still depend on password, be it pin or regular old password. Recovering lost key means using password still. That means attack vector has just shifted and they won't try to steal your key but social engineer their way into phishing your original password, making the whole thing a bit pointless.
Another things that worries me is the possibility each device will have its own key, although they claim transferable. Depending on what data is used to authenticate and prove device is owned properly this can be used to fingerprint users. For example IMEI or some other unique id, etc. Something that's not easily done with passwords.
Biggest one is the fact it will negate two factor authentication. Verifying code on your phone and knowing password is difficult to exploit since it requires a lot of effort... possession of the device and knowledge of password. But with passkeys, there's no password to remember and everything boils down to owning a device. They are then relying on the OS and device itself not to leak sensitive information. Not something I'd rely on.
Also, private key being backed up on Google means should they ever leak data someone can get everything they need to access your account. Private keys being protected by simple pin or password means nothing and would probably be easily broken due to simple nature of the protection.
Am not convinced this will see such high adoption as so many are claiming it will have.
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Most hardware today has what's called a TPM. It's a physical hardware chip that can store certificates in a way that can't be extracted.
It's way more secure than someone stealing a cer file.
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I know what TPM is, am not talking out of my ass here. But chain is only as strong as its weakest link, which is backup certificates somewhere protected by a pin or simple password. If it still requires password to access certificate, than you have moved issues from one place to another. What good is iron front door when you leave your windows open.
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It doesn’t feel better? Good thing security doesn't care about feelings. The fact is it is more secure no matter what it feels like. Privacy is maintained since you use a new key with each site. There is no IMEI or anything like that in the passkey spec. Social engineering ranges from more difficult to impossible depending on if you use a synced, local software based, or hardware based passkey system.
You have a lot of incorrect assumptions. Read https://support.apple.com/en-us/102195 and https://fidoalliance.org/passkeys/#faq.
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You have a lot of incorrect assumptions
No I don't. You either misunderstood what I wrote about or don't understand how whole process works. There's no denial that signing in with passkeys is more secure. Technology has been there for a while and it's proven. But that's only one part of the whole process.
However, even the site you linked states:
When a user is asked to sign in to an app or website, the user approves the sign-in with the same biometric or PIN or on-device password that the user has to unlock their device (phone, computer, or security key). The app or website can use this mechanism instead of the traditional username and password.
Problem is in biometric or PIN on device. Which is what I talked about, you replace 2 factors with a single point of authentication. No matter how secure data exchange between site and device is, getting hold of your device means there's a potential to losing access.
They claim second factor and password can be fished, but so can your PIN, and it's even easier since it's usually short. Whole security idea they are proposing is removing human factor completely from the authentication process. Which in general is not a bad idea to get rid of bad habits people have but at the same time, those bad habits are just relocated elsewhere. There are number of YouTube videos showcasing how easy it is to bypass lock screen patterns and PINs. Not to mention huge amount of people who simply don't want to have any sort of security on their phone.
They claim passkeys are multi-factor in essence, but that's not true. Whole point of multi-factor authentication is to make it harder to posses all things needed to exploit the data. Access to ATM requires card and pin, one thing you posses other have in your head. OTP works the same way, user/pass for web and then device you posses generates one time password. Having everything in one place is like locking your door and leaving the key beneath the door mat. Key can be as elaborate as it wants to, if someone lifts the door mat, whole security goes away.
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This video about passkeys is fascinating. They are very secure even if your pin is 1234. The only way for someone to hack your account is if they have your device.
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Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
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This is the best summary I could come up with:
Google is taking a big step toward making passkeys the default login option for its users.
Starting today, users logging in to personal Google accounts will be prompted to create and use passkeys instead of passwords when possible.
They’re both easier to use and more secure than passwords, so users no longer need to rely on the names of pets, birthdays or the infamous “password123.” Instead, passkeys let users sign in to apps and sites the same way they unlock their devices: with a fingerprint, a face scan or a screen lock PIN.
And, unlike passwords, passkeys are resistant to online attacks like phishing, making them more secure than things like SMS one-time codes.
Google has been experimenting with passkeys across numerous products, including Chrome, over the past year.
Users who want to forgo passkeys can uncheck the "skip password when possible" option in their accounts.
The original article contains 289 words, the summary contains 146 words. Saved 49%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
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The problem with Google's passcodes:
- I don't use Google account on my phone. In a rare occasion I need to access gmail outside of my home, I just log in via a browser, either on my phone or work computer or wherever.
- My home PC has no authentication whatsoever. The three physical locks on my apartment's door is the access control. Couldn't lug it around for authentication, anyway.
- I have no other devices that could be used for this passcode thing, and my phone is usually laying around somewhere, probably shut off with empty battery.
In fact, I have not bothered even with 2FA for google accounts. At this point these are just "garbage collection accounts" for spam and youtube subscriptions/playlists, anyway.
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i don't own a 'device' to use for this. i don't even want one.