Hmmmm

What Israel is doing to Palestine today is exactly what America did and is doing to their indigenous population. Why do you think they're allies?
- Why does anyone think Israel was there first??? Lmfao. Their own Torah says otherwise.
  "God gave this to us" isn't a legitimate argument.
  
  i think most people don't know the history and just figure it's a normal country we're allied with for the normal sort of reasons
  
  Even less when they wrote it themselves.
  
  But it's basically the same argument the USA used.
  Manifest Destiny.
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny
  
  Because Arabs came there only in 600year a.c. While Israely were there from 10 000 b.c. Along with other tribes, but not Arabs. But then Arabs made up Muslim and started claiming everything and being cry babis if not allowed.
- I mean, the US sucks, but they don't just support settler colonial states for its own sake. They support Israel because it's strategically useful to have a US friendly state in the middle east that's small enough that they will basically do what we say (unlike Saudi Arabia). Also a significant portion of Republicans in congress think that Israel/Palestine being controlled by Jews is a necessary precondition for the Rapture. The US is more indifferent to the genocide of the Palestinians than anything, which imo is just as bad, but it's important to look at the material causes for things instead of just saying "these two countries have similar ideologies so they'll be allies".
  
  All of that is true AND they have an ideological solidarity. Think of it like this: If there was a genuine landback movement and the Illegal Occupation of Palestine was seen as what it is, then people are going to start looking at the Americas and noticing similarities. For a country that was built on the same settler colonial genocide, claims to be democratic when it's clear they're not, and subjugation of minorities. Oops.
  
  I don't see the distinction you're trying to make between settler-colonialism and ... what? The US is a settler-colonialist project, because it allows them to steal land, or control it via compradores, in their best material interest. Israel is no different, which is why western capitalists created and funded it: a colony run by and for white european millionaires in the ME.
  
  Colonizers still get along

What matters isn't who came first. What matters is that no one has the right to expel a human from a land they're living in. That is the core of the Israeli Palestinian conflict.
I am pro Palestine, but have no issue with the increase of Jewish migrations in the 19th century. The problem is not Jewish migration. It is the fact that Israel expelled Palestinians from their homes, murdered them, suffocated them, and made their lives miserable.
And this is the same thing that was done to the native people of the modern day Americas.
- This is an honest question, is Wikipedia just wrong on that? Because there they write that Palestine also expelled all Jews and that they moved to Israel for that reason (because they weren't allowed in Palestine). And also they write that Hamas specifically want all Jews to be gone.
  If Wikipedia is wrong, where do you get your information from?
  
  Please feel free to ask any questions! I am happy to answer them all
  Can you please cite which part of Wikipedia is saying this?
  "Palestine" and "Israel" are two names for the same region, so it doesn't make sense to be expelled from one into the other. I think there must be a misunderstanding here.
  I bet this is referring to certain Arab States expelling Jews during the creation of Israel and the British occupation of Palestine, as a retaliation (which was horrible and stupid and I fully condemn it). But keep in mind this is well into the conflict, when Zionists and British occupation were already well into committing heinous acts and massacres, and that this is Arab States who sympathized with Palestine, not Palestine itself.
  What I was referring to was treatment of Jews in Palestine before the Zionist project.
  As for Hamas' anti-semitism, I think some background information is important here.
  When it was founded, Hamas was not a popular group by any means. Popular Palestinian resistance groups at the time were socialist and progressive, such as the PFLP and other members of the PLO. Hamas was founded as a Muslim brotherhood affiliate, and its charter had many anti Semitic references.
  Israel saw this as a huge opportunity, and it propped up Hamas while fighting off other groups. Fast forward to the 2000's, every Palestinian resistance group was left defeated, and Hamas was left as the only group left fighting. Palestinians had no choice but to support Hamas.
  This was a major change for Hamas. It saw hoardes of Palestinians join its ranks, and most were not ideologically aligned with them. There are even Christians fighting among its ranks. This caused an ideological shift within Hamas. It was even reflected in its new charter in 2017, which dropped anti-semitic rhetoric and said it is fighting against Israel, not because of its religion, but because of the Zionist occupation. You can find this charter translated online easily.
  Since then, many Hamas officials reiterated their position that they are not fighting to expel Jews, but against Zionist occupation.
  Palestinians today see Hamas as a vehicle for their liberation, and not as an ideological alignment. But even then, most of the people in Hamas do not hold anti Semitic opinions anymore, and we should keep in mind this major shift throughout its history.
  
  Wikipedia is kind of wrong in the sense that there's always been Palestinian Jews.
  The issue is that due to Zionism, a ton of European Jews moved into the region starting at the turn of the last century and accelerating following the Holocaust.
  Said Jews then set about building a thriving western-style industrialized democracy that was opposed at every turn by an Arab and Islamic population that opposed its very existence on what can only be thought of as religious grounds.
  All of which can only be taken as an indication of how deeply corrupting and counter-progressive are virtually all forms of institutionalized organized religion.
  Fuck all of them. Organized religion sucks ass and should rightly be seen as a vestige of the past.
- Didn't Arabs and Palestinians just flat out refuse to coexist with a Jewish state from the start? The international community proposed a solution and they refused to accept it.
  Certainly if they chose to fight, and lost, then they have to face the consequences which might include losing their land.
  That's hardy unprecedented, the very city I live in was largely founded by seizing lands from the British during the American war of independence, because they lost...
  I would say while yes it's "wrong" to kick someone off their land, both parties have to at least be reasonable and willing to compromise when you have a complex ethnic and religious issue. Otherwise conflict is inevitable.
  None of which is to excuse any war crimes committed by either side. I just think it's more nuanced than "israel bad apartheid state".
  
  Didn't Arabs and Palestinians just flat out refuse to coexist with a Jewish state from the start?
  "coexist with a Jewish state" is a bit of a contradictory statement. Arabs coexisted with Jews fine prior to the Zionist project. A Jewish state is by definition a state exclusive to Jews. That's the opposite of coexistnece by definition, and yes that is exactly why Arabs (Muslims and Christians alike) refused it.
  Certainly if they chose to fight,
  Resist*. they chose to resist occupation, expulsion from their homes, massacre and genocide.
  fight, and lost, then they have to face the consequences which might include losing their land.
  Ahh, so if someone fights you for your land, destroys your home and genocides your people, then they've earned it?? Well I should not be surprised that someone who lives in a nation founded on genocide thinks this is okay.
  yes it's "wrong" to kick someone off their land, both parties have to at least be reasonable and willing to compromise
  "hey man, I know I just took over your home and burned your family alive in front of your eyes. But you gotta be reasonable here and be willing to compromise!"
  What more of a compromise do you need beyond coexistence? That's all Palestinians have asked for, and Israel continues to deny them basic rights, no matter how peaceful they are.
  And I end with: Israel bad apartheid state. It is truly that simple.
- When I fuck my wife I always come first! And that's exactly what I tell her.

And the Israelites weren't the first either, there's a few books of the Bible about who exactly they pushed out.
- This might surprise you but the bible isn't 100% accurate.
  Jokes aside: scholars think that the Israelites were a group of Canaanites who lived as "outcasts" in the hinterlands and seized the cities after the bronze age collapse.
  So Israelites came when the Canaanites collapsed but the causality is different than depicted in the bible. Also they weren't that foreign in the first place.
- Pushed out? You mean committed mass genocide.
  
  While one may oppose and even condemn particular Israeli policies or actions with regard to Palestinians or Israel’s Arab citizens, the fact remains that in no way has Israel engaged in any action with the intent to exterminate, in whole or in part, the Palestinian people.
  Indeed, accusing Israel of genocide has the collateral effect diminishing real acts of genocide – such as those that occurred in the Holocaust, against Armenians, and in Rwanda.
  Furthermore, it is deeply concerning that Israel is often the only country in the world accused by activist groups of contemporaneously engaging in genocide. Not only is this false as a matter of both law and fact, but it also applies a singularly demonizing double standard to Israel.
  Finally, claiming as some do, that there are many “types” of genocide, and Israel is, for example, committing “cultural” genocide, is equally problematic. Regardless of how the term is applied, it is clearly heard and impacts a large audience who hear it as the legal term intended to convey the most awful of human crimes – mass murder and population expulsion – a charge that is misapplied to Israel and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
- Eyuppp
- This might surprise you but Bible is new book written not so long ago while Israely were there from 10000 b.c. Fighting other local tribes until Muslims where invented and came with all their sadistic hate to other nations and killing infants just like they behave now. No excuses. They need to be wiped out, like Russia and other tumors on Earth.
  
  This might surprise you but Bible is new book written not so long ago while Israely were there from 10000 b.c.
  Verifiably no, there's argument at to if ancient Israel ever existed or of out was a loose confederation like the early German empire.
  Fighting other local tribes until Muslims where invented and came with all their sadistic hate to other nations and killing infants just like they behave now.
  There's exactly zero proof of that and literally no one knows who started what or when.
  No excuses. They need to be wiped out, like Russia and other tumors on Earth.
  Like you perhaps.

Where is a good place to start to learn about this conflict. I have no idea who is in the right here.
- I understand and appreciate you trying to learn. I think one of the issues why nobody can really point you to a good resource is that there are no 100% neutral resources that document "the conflict". Even just where/when you start something like a timeline can be biased.
  Keeping all that in mind I have found a video that gives a short simplified summary of the base history.
  https://youtu.be/1wo2TLlMhiw?si=_ANEgker8DzQZQxR
  I liked it (might be part of my bias since I like crash course). But I'm sure there are mistakes in there and as above some details/framing might just be due to biases of the author's/presenters etc.
  
  Yeah definitely a problem finding truly unbiased information. I'm paranoid my whole world view is shaped by western rule even though there is more free speech here than anywhere else.. or is that idea also propaganda lol
  I will give that a watch when I have some time later thank you.
  
  Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
  https://piped.video/1wo2TLlMhiw?si=_ANEgker8DzQZQxR
  Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
  I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
- If you want a book, 100 Years War on Palestine does an excellent job going over everything up to 2017.
  Very in-depth, full picture of everything that's happened from 1917 (what just about everyone considers to be the beginning of the modern conflict), including errors and crimes committed by both sides. The author is Palestinian and obviously not neutral, but is far from extremist, and comes at things with a historical/academic rigor.
  There are many other books/resources of course, but at least as far as getting a decent idea of what actually happened thus far, it's a very good history of the conflict, major players and the geopolitics associated.
  
  I think you either mean rigor, or rigeuer, which is short for de rigeuer and more related to fashion rather than academic credibility.
- How Palestine became colonized
- Neither party is in the right. Israel is a violent apartheid state, and Palestine is large ruled by a terrorist organization. Both Israelis and Palestinians have the right to exist, but neither side's leadership respects each other's existence.
  The victims in all of this are both the Israeli and Palestinian citizens, so taking a side isn't really a sound option. I am failing to see anyone who aligns as pro-Israel or pro-Palestine make coherent arguments about what happened this week. The only reasonable alignment is to be anti-war, anti-terrorism, and anti-apartheid.
  
  I place some — not uniformly distributed, only on those that do this — blame on the Israeli citizens that knowingly move into a recently captured area. They're literally colonizing the Palestinians land. I don't fuck with colonizers.
- palestine was there first, Israel is a far right state dedicated to a colonialism of Palestine
  Israel is the wrong side.
- Honestly, trying to find a definitive 'in the right' of any large-scale conflict is tough, almost moot. Especially since moral values like 'right' and 'wrong' are subjective, and that small groups of powerful people may not represent a whole. Complex reality doesn't fall neatly into these ideals of right and wrong.
  
  Here is all clear.
- There's an old crash course world history video about it
  Edit: Oh someone already linked it.
- Nobody is, and that's the wrong question to ask.
  
  In that case I need to figure out the right question to ask
- The one who lives civilian and not murder infants and not spending all money on rockets instead of developing own cities and culture. Oh, and not claiming wrong claims, not deceiving others. They are terrorist, lyers and complete garbage just as Russians and Iranians are right now.
  Arabs came to those lands at 600 year while Israely ancestors were there from 10000 b.c.

Mandatory "This Land is Mine"

- It turns out rape is part of genocide.
  
  Or just regular ol' love. Not that rape wasn't (and isn't) a part of genocide, slavery, and other atrocities.
- And that 1/16 is the only part that has a real claim to American lands
  
  No it's just some bullshit white people tell themselves.

The Jews weren't there first. The Canaanites were there first.
- Of which the Israelites are believed to have branched out from/are descended from
  
  Zionists are basing their irridentism on the Torah, and from what I've read, the Canaanites existed in the area before Abraham was given the land as a promised land.
  
  And then slaughtered all the other branches

If we use that as precedent then we should let them fight with a winner takes all

- It's very narrow-scope to frame this conflict as just about one attack at a music concert, and furthermore to think that a decades-long invasion, colonization and blockade shouldn't be compared to other acts of colonialism.
  Also, please read the community rules before posting, there are only two of them.
- Oopsie

Very interesting!

So ~~you're~~ people are saying native Americans have every right to kill, maim and rape settler-colonialist Americans? And that they're all legitimate targets, since they're all settlers?
I get it.
Edit: OP didn't say that. People on Twitter did. I didn't separate that. It's an emotional topic, I have friends who are directly affected by HAMAS atrocities.
- So you're saying native Americans have every right to kill, maim and rape settler-colonialist Americans?
  Where did OP say this? It is a bannable offense so please point out where, as I don't see it.
- Woah people genocided deserve to kill their genociders
- I see you made an edit, so I'll respond to it here.
  While no one should have the right to rape anyone or murder innocent people, the only one to blame for these atrocities is the Israeli state. They are keeping millions of people in a concentration camp, massacring them slowly every day, destroying their homes, cutting off supply lines and giving them just enough living resources to experience slow death. They burn their children alive. Their soldiers brag about raping Palestinians.
  So then if those people lose it and retaliate, who are you going to blame? Those trapped in the concentration camp and chose to resist? Or the ones doing it to them?
  And in reality, despite all of this, Hamas has been far more humane in treating Israelis than Israel is with Palestinians. They protected their hostages, and have a history of doing so. They give mothers and the elderly special treatment.
  If you are upset about rape and cold blooded murder, look no further than Israel. If you're outraged about Hamas, who's not even a fraction the concern that Israel is, your priorities are not right at all.
  
  Hamas has been far more humane in treating Israelis than Israel is with Palestinians.
  Bye.

- Where?

- Because they don't want it, simple as that. Why do you think they've been illegally stealing Palestinian land and bulldozing their homes for illegal settlements for decades?
- They have. The issue is that their country was drawn up, by Europeans, without the consent of the people that were already living there. So the Palestinians, rightfully, don’t want any Israel to be there at all, on account of it being on land stolen from them.
  I know a lot of the world is European living in stolen lands, but, surprisingly, none of the rest of the people give a single shot what happened in the last 500 years, they simply just want the intruders gone.
  
  Imo the whole "let's give Jewish people a state after the holocaust" thing was a good idea, but they should have put it Germany. Germany were the ones who actually Did the holocaust, therefore there's some argument to be made that they were entitled to German land, you could consider it a form of reparations. There was no argument for Jewish people being entitled to Palestine because their ancient ancestors lived there like 1800 years ago or whatever
  
  the settlement started before British support which came later. It's super complicated.
  edit: reasonable overview on Wikipedia of events leading up to Israel actually https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
  Bastardised simple summary is
  Europeans treat Jewish people like shit for thousands of years
  creates support for Jewish sovern state
  languishes a while but antisemitism gets worse
  in typical European fashion it is decided to just start settling where other people already live and force the existence of a country
  ww1, Britain and France decide they know how to do a middle east. Results show typical commitment to stability and fairness.
  settlement is supported by various and sundry European powers inc German Reich in lead up to and during ww2 because everyone hates Jewish people and wants to foist them off to some other, preferable brown skinned, person's country.
  after ww2 everyone eventually gets mad at the results of this sensitive and thoughtful plan, including European supporters, neighbouring countries, Palestinans, and many Jewish people. Fear and hatred fuel dominance of increasingly aggressive right wing political parties.
  everyone except the USA that is. Their government has a blast supply weapons after Britain and France wash their hands and claim guiltlessness.
  land grabs and oppression intensifies
- I don’t fucking get on how Israel has never really tried forming a state in which both palestinians and jews can live in peace together.
  The Zionist terrorist of the British Mandate period were founding members of the state of Israel. For example Menachem Begin who later became a founding member of the Likud party which Netanyahu belongs to. These asshats from the start wanted to get rid of all Palestinians/Arabs and get the whole country for Jewish people. That's why the Zyonist terrorist fist targeted communities where Jews and Palestinians/Arabs were living together in peace. Netanyahu is just continuing this goal and he would rather die than to allow for a stable two state solution to become reality.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_process
- The "one state solution" is the only real way forward but it's not surprising it's not very popular. The Jews would be a minority in this hypothetical country and there are two problems with that:
  One, the right wing types types really will only accept a Jewish-dominant theocratic state as an outcome. Everything comes second to that. Even the others feel like they "need" a safe state that's free from generations of oppression against Jews. There are more Palestinians than Jews right now, so giving those Palestinians any kind of political representation is a non starter.
  Two, how do you think the Palestinians feel about Jews right now? How do you think they would behave if given political power right now? I'm not saying they'd all turn around and look for equal but opposite revenge but I doubt they're happy about all this. Further, do you think the Israelis are going to want to put themselves in that position?
  So because of that. while i think the one state solution is the only realistic non-genocidal way forward i'm not optimistic about it coming to pass.
- The people under apartheid aren’t accepting their place? Shocker.
  Israel will never know peace while they continue to oppress Palestinians.
- The same reason why in the US we have people attacking trans people (even when they've literally never seen one in person) and why our monopoly laws have gone from "chop them up for the common good" to "you better stop it or we might levy a symbolic fine"
  The political window has been shifted so far right that the left's position is "we need to be nicer to the people in Gaza, but really carefully since they'll subjugate us if they have the chance"
  It's not an accident, it's a small group of people with a lot of money who are investing it in hijacking discourse for their own power.
  If you get on tv and start pitching socialism, you're instantly dismissed as a radical. You can't even have the conversation - people don't understand what that means and will instinctively recite nonsensical talking points, because they've been fed those for so long it would take an intensive college course to unlearn enough that they can have the actual conversation of "would this work better". The vast majority has internalized the idea that "raw dog capitalism is the only feasible system"
  It's the same with Israel. They've been fed propoganda so long that you can't have the conversation - they've internalized the idea that Gaza is a bunch of animals who want to kill them, and the furthest left thing you can pitch to them is "well, maybe we should improve their situation economically, but we have to be careful not to let our foot on their neck slip off too fast"
  Fun fact - there's a lot of overlap with the groups doing this in the US and the ones doing it in Israel. By that I mean literally the same groups are funding both propaganda efforts, like the heritage foundation
- the Isreali government has a long and increasing history of systematic oppression of palestinian people, both inside and outside of the occupied palestinian territories. https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/
  
  This is definitely not true. If you are Palestinian you don't have freedom of movement inside Palestine let alone freedom to enter Israel. They're not all permanently barred (gotta let them in so they can work for Israel) but they're not free.
  You're also not able to live in peace in Palestine. Settlers regularly come in and drive people out. Food, water. medical supplies, and more are tightly controlled by Israel.
  There are non Jews who are Israel citizens, including some Palestinian people, but that's a different story and those are not the people we're talking about.
- Palestinian. They have the exact same rights as any other citizen
  That's so ridiculously false that you're either wholly ignorant about the reality of the notoriously discriminate ethnostate that is Israel or deliberately lying to further a false narrative.
  
  Let me just take the majority of your house, leaving you with only your bathroom, and then tell me how wanting me out is trying to invade my territory

Let's 👏 give 👏 Isreal 👏 to 👏 journalist 👏 replaced 👏 by 👏 AI 👏
- I don't really care what the contents are. If someone's using excessive emojis or doing this stupid clapping shit, that's a down vote for me.
  
  Username checks out.
  
  User 👏 Grump 👏 has 👏 a 👏 fantastic 👏 point 👏👏
  
  Something about the 💩justworks instance makes people instantly have🗡 up their 🍑.

Completely different things. 'Muricans captured that land in a fair fight, so it's theirs now by the right of conquest.
- In that case, Rome has the rights to Israel. Who is the successor to the Roman empire, Germany or Russia? Let's fight it out.
  
  Turkey has joined the chat
  
  Romania is the successor of Rome
- They gave them blankets with smallpox. "Fair fight" my ass.
  
  No such thing as a fair fight, ever. Fighting fair is called sport. Fighting is fighting, you win or you die. Winners win, losers die. Would we like that some of the losers weren't killed? Sure, but you can't bring back the dead. History will continue, and you will never see an Native American owned and run America, no matter how idealistic that might feel, because they are already culturally dead. Native Americans are 4x4 driving casino operators now, they became Americans.
- d e s t i n y : m a n i f e s t e d
- An outspoken supporter of genocide and colonialism? Yeah that's a ban from me.