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Advice needed, son wants to learn how to program

Hi all,

My 8 year old is asking if he can learn how to program. He has asked specifically if I could set him up with a ‘programming kit with lessons’ for a Christmas present. I’d like to support this, and it seems like it’s not a transient interest as he’s been all over scratch, and using things like minecraft commands for the last year. I have an old (pre 2017) MacBook Air I can set up for this. How do I / what would you advise I set up for him, to a) keep him safe online (he’s 8!) and b) give him the tools he needs in a structured way.

I am not a programmer. I know enough bash/shell and basic unix stuff to be dangerous and I was a front end dev a very long time ago, but I wouldn’t call myself a programmer and don’t know what concepts he needs to learn first.

Hugely appreciate any advice, thanks.

Edit: So I posted this then had a busy family day and came back to so many comments! I will methodically go through these all, thanks so much.

A couple of things on resources: he has expressed interest in 3D worlds and I noticed comments on engines, but wonder if that’s too advanced?

Totally agree with the short feedback loop rather than projects that take days.

He has an iPad 6 and I’m happy to pop a Linux distro on the Air, so certainly open to that.

So many links to research. Hugely grateful.

74 comments
  • I don't want to undermine everyone's suggestions but I think they are failing to understand this is a kid, buying him a laptop and stuff is okay but doesn't motivate him to much.

    Check for authors of books for kids. Invent with python is great, that was going to be my suggestion. But same author has plenty, like this one https://turtleappstore.com/book/ ... to echo someone who mentioned Minecraft (indeed, already marked a whole generation into computer science subject!). Good luck! Maybe you can even find something for you, like, how do we teach CS/ programming to kids? How come that moving the Logo turtle was alright for so many years, lol

  • I learned programming at about 12, by following tutorials for the Pygame python library. It doesn't do anything especially fancy, but it taught me many concepts, while I had a lot of fun. My first project was making the traditional snake game, which I think is a good level of complexity.

  • Don't worry about Linux, and don't try to over complicate things. If you are set on going the Linux route, get a Raspberry Pi. It will give him something really flexible and cheap to experiment with later on.

    Look into modded Minecraft. There is a mod called Computer Craft where you can write programs in Lua. One of the things that makes scratch so good for kids is that the results are instantly visible. This is important for kids.

    https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/mc-mods/cc-tweaked

    There are programs to control your reactor > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9fC3khXuj8

    Unmodded Minecraft has Redstone where you can build logic gates.

    Outside of what you already have check into a maker space or a computer club at school. Here in Atlanta there is https://www.codeninjas.com. Maybe there is something similar in your area.

  • For general Unix skills, get him a laptop and help him install a Linux distro on it. Show him a few different desktop environments, buy him a Linux magazine with a DVD and articles or projects. Then just let him try whatever he wants and promise to be there to help him fix whatever he breaks (by pointing him to docs, belong him write good forum questions, helping him revise search queries, etc.). These skills are perhaps a bit simpler to pick up but can eventually grow into scripting and programming skills.

    For programming, start with simple programming exercises or koans, and maybe give him prizes (like a quarter or a piece of candy or something) when he solves them. Let him solve lots of similar problems/puzzles over and over as he builds his confidence; rather than pushing him to harder material, just offer harder material with higher rewards. You'll probably have to write your own exercises at first, like just translating arithmetic expressions from a notation he's learning in school to one used by whatever programming language you're working in together. Eventually, you can start to do online exercises together.

    Once he has been messing with this stuff for a year or two, revisit fundamentals by working through a carefully selected introductory textbook together. You can include shell scripts at this point to tie the Unix stuff and programming stuff together, and maybe use a good Linux magazine or Learn Enough Developer Tools to Be Dangerous as the 'textbook' for that side. Then he'll at least know basic version control and surrounding tools.

    After you've gone through a chunk of those basics together— full mastery is not required— sign up for an introductory programming class together at the local community college. Taking it together, you can make sure he's keeping up with the material, encourage him to ask questions, and help him with homework if necessary. If you want, you can also do this with networking or systems administration.

    This is based on some things that my dad did with me, including a couple of community college classes we took together. (Idr exactly how old I was during those classes, but I think it was before I started high school.)

  • There's Colobot, an old game with a C++ based language where you control bots through scripts.

  • I was going to suggest something like Kaboom.js for simple game development, but their site is currently down...

  • Some high-level ideas here:

    There's lots of opportunities in programming to make mistakes, or where they're faced with big open-ended problems that a programmer can build an entire career in dealing with in themselves. Being aware of what resources you need to look for and learn from is one of the first steps to getting what you want out of your interactions with those areas. If he persists in learning programming, he will soon run into these areas, and how well he handles them will play a large role in determining how successful he is as a programmer. A small number of examples of different domains that have unexpected nuances which suddenly become important to a new programmer, and catch them by surprise:

    Internationalization Password handling Interacting with the host operating system and filesystem Interacting with programmers from groups with different social norms and standards than they're used to - this is partly solved by READMEs and project documentation, but only partly. Social skills are important. Interacting with end users Programming languages often have weird corners to them which can waste a lot of time, cause a lot of confusion, and cause bugs. Looking at C and C++ especially, but no programming language is blameless. He'll have to test his code. If he needs to do involved tests on his code, which he might eventually, there are a few areas of testing code are virtualization, unit tests, and fuzz testing. These all take significant effort to learn how to do. Ethics, legal issues, and politics. GUI programming

    There are plenty more areas, of course. I'm not saying this to discourage you or your son - learning about these sorts of things can help your son grow as a programmer and maybe even as a person if he's fortunate. But my biggest piece of advice is to be very careful where you put your time and attention on, in programming, and probably in life in general. There's no limit to the time you can waste on being foolish, except the limits you have for yourself.

    My second biggest piece of advice is that maybe he should switch to using Linux and Free and Open Source Software at some point. It's very convenient from the perspective of a programmer who's very motivated by being engaged with a community or by benefiting others - he can learn about a community he's likely to want to engage with in the future, he'll be more able to change aspects of his computer to suit his needs or desires, and honestly, my experience as a Linux user who's learning programming is that learning how to use Mac and Windows feels more like work than learning Linux does. Learning how to use Linux feels like learning how to program.

    Maybe you would want to introduce him to Godot and Blender, since they're FOSS software, and less at risk of weird decisions being made with them like happened with Unity, where companies pulled a very weird and developer- and user-hostile and security-hostile decision out of nowhere.

  • A couple of things on resources: he has expressed interest in 3D worlds and I noticed comments on engines, but wonder if that’s too advanced?

    I most certainly wouldn't start out programming with / in 3d worlds.

    Drawing 2D shapes seems like a good way to spark interest though, with immediate visual feedback.

  • minecraft can work really well for learning how tp program, when I was 9 that is how I started, unfortunately its been a long time since I took that course but if you are willing to do the research there should be a some for server programming and java modding at least that is what I took over 11 years ago at this point, and maybe javascript for gametest framework for bedrock edition. there is also minetest which is a little better for learning but isn't minecraft so is a little bit more annoying but lets you modify basically anything you want which is very fun. also a great way to learn boolean algebra/circuit design in minecraft/minetest, redstone can be used to make micro computers like calculators, fun and can be applicable to making games in minecraft which makes it more engaging as well. also the minecraft commands can be put into a mcfunction file as you can imagine this can be generated by outputting text to the file, this is great because you learn file io and a programming language and mostly he would be using math to generate things so teaches math, its limited but that is something he would find fun that is super easy and can be done in basically any language.

    redstone/mcfunctions I personally like this approach on top of the course because it gives him something useful so should hopefully encourage him to play and program after he finishes lessons and etc...

  • Ground him into a room until he learns to make a game with only assembly, give him a Tandy to figure it out

74 comments