2y ago

This Is Not A Faceless Megacorporation: a second reminder to be measured in what you expect of us

once again speaking for myself here, except where these sentiments have already been expressed by other admins. this is not a moderator document or anything, and it will not be stickied.

we have a ton of new people thanks to clearing a lot of our queue and i'm already seeing a bunch of the same issues we had to quash a week/two weeks ago with the first big influx. so, to reiterate:

we (the Admins) are four people, only two of which have actual experience running or maintaining anything in the same universe of what we're managing now. running this instance is not--and cannot be--a full time job for any of us and our insistence is that it doesn't become one. full-time working on this site would be financially and socially ruinous. if just us four admins were being paid a fair wage for the work we do, our Open Collective would barely cover the last two weeks. in any case we are not the only people working on this site and worthy of being paid.

we cannot currently (and may not in the future either, to be honest with you) accommodate a lot of what you might think we're able to do, or expect because Reddit had it either through an app or the base function of the site. this is moderationally, federationally, and technically. neither i nor the other admins have the requisite experience with coding to contribute to the site, and we already have a ton of bug fixes to wrangle that have given our volunteer sysops fits. most of your issues are probably caused by and better referred to Lemmy itself than to Beehaw itself. i would strongly encourage you also post them to either !lemmy_support@lemmy.ml or the software's GitHub if you think it's a general functionality problem. in general: we cannot refer your issues elsewhere right now, you will need to do that yourself.

Lemmy, i want to stress again, has very limited base functionalities, many of which our admins and sysops are trying to work around. those constrain us in what we can do or how. a lot of options we have at our disposal to make stuff run are binary, and a lot of the not-binary options are confusing. we have had to hack around a lot of these while waiting on permanent solutions in Lemmy itself. this is our current list of moderator functionalities we'd like to see.

we also cannot be perfect, and if you're expecting perfect then i don't know what to tell you. you are on what is basically beta software, being hosted and supported by volunteers. right now, we absolutely and simply cannot promise much of anything past "the site is online and moderated in accordance with our values." if you can't hang with that caveat i would strongly encourage you to please go somewhere else, for your own sake.

78 comments

People have become so jaded from years and years of corporate monopolizing, they no longer remember what an internet run by real humans feels like.
I'm not saying that in order to excuse them. Quite the opposite. To make this whole "federated" thing work, we all have to remember the empathy we lost dealing with the Facebook's and Twitter's of the world.
An internet run by the people for the people is by nature going to have more empathy' and therefore more risk of hurt feelings. We need to be aware of that.
- I'd actually kind of love it if it became a common thing for some smaller sites to only be open on certain days of the week. It would make the internet feel a little bit more lively
- People have become so jaded from years and years of corporate monopolizing, they no longer remember what an internet run by real humans feels like.
  I wonder if that’s the case, or if more people just use the internet now and more people are assholes… I hope the former, but I worry it’s the latter.

It's kind of the defining line between "community as a product" and "community as a platform." What is offered and provided is a platform for all of us to work together to build and sustain a community. What we're used to is the other type, where there has always been a drive to monetize the experience. It's like the fallacy that content creators owe their audience anything other than the content they've already provided. The people here running and moderating the community have my respect and admiration, because it's not something I'd willingly step into, knowing the unrealistic expectations of most Internet participants.

Extremely valid, and I appreciate the clear communication and all the hard work you and the team have put in so far.

What you've accomplished here is super appreciated.
The approach of this instance, the clear communication, all that and more.
I know some might expect this to replace reddit, but I think more will discover the differences and advantages and disadvantages of using a federated service, especially when instances have their own rules which can be a bit more involved than simple subreddit rules.
Really have to echo some of the other comments, though. Take care of yourselves. You're not beeholden to us. If you need maintenance days or just need to cool shit down so you don't burn out, know that the entitled ones who expect more are in the minority.
I think many of us, at least initially, joined specifically because we wanted a pleasant space to interact with each other and Beehaw is all about that.
It would hopefully be uncharacteristic of the users of this instance to hold your feet to the flames and demand shit en masse.
As far as I'm concerned, we're flowing with the river here. Taking things as they come along. If, sometimes, that means the river slows down for a while, that's okay.
Take your time, let things settle. If it means slowing down the instance a bit while you get your bearings, I see no issue with that. And judging by many of the comments here, I don't think I'm the only one.
I think you guys are doing great with what you've got so far.
- Hard agree! 🍁

I'm so glad I choose Beehaw as my first Lemmy experience, and if I load up the site and it's not working, oh well, it probably will shortly. I don't need instant satisfaction all the time, this is a social place, not a work place. These features and forums are fun, and it sucks people want to take advantage of a volunteers time, Or expect premium features on a passion project many have contributed their free time to.
- Completely agree! Beehaw fills the time left open by my dropping Reddit, but it isn't a replacement for Reddit in my mind. Instead, I see it as it's own thing, primarily centered around socializing, and that's reflected in the fact that I've already posted here in a couple of weeks than I did in my decade or so of using Reddit. It's a lot more interaction and active use instead of passive consumption and lurking, and I really like that. Seeing all the people trying to file bug reports for Lemmy/Jerboa and making demands in Beehaw Support bugs me since (as far as I'm concerned) the admins have already gone above and beyond what I think they're responsible for, and I appreciate every bit of it.
- Totally agree! Everyone is doing a great job and I like it here. I have contributed a couple PRs to Lemmy. Time and honestly mental energy makes it hard to consistently contribute to the code base.
- I LOVE this sentiment. I wish everybody thought the way you did.

I’ll take four part-time admins trying their best over a corporate tool any day. Slick platforms have a way of turning into shitty platforms over time when money is involved and the whole business model is about luring in the masses to drive engagement metrics.
Your principles are sound. The rest will come.

Your work is appreciated, but after all this i gotta say that you do take care of yourselves and don't overdo this, I'd hate for you folks to get burned out by running Beehaw
- we're trying very hard not to, and part of that is occasionally posting nudges like this of our limitations lol
  
  And it’s very valid. We want to hear your progress, but also want to hear your pain points. A lot of us are sympathetic to you being a very small team that manages a now popular instance. We appreciate you moderating and communicating.

@alyaza we really appreciate what you're doing (: I stopped using reddit years ago because of how bad it got and started browsing lemmy because I missed what the old internet felt like; beehaw's communities have been my favorite to lurk with the kinds of discussions I see

I don't expect you to be perfect! Thank you for being a great mod team ❤️

You're all doing a great job! Please take care of yourselves too!

Thank you SO much for all of your work. I came on recently. It took a couple of days to go through and there were clearly tech issues going on. I mostly just felt bad for even trying to sign up when I did because I was compounding the issue. I knew that it was going to be worth the wait though.
It gave me more time to explore the interface and check out people's discourse. Most social networking is a whole lot of rage bait stuff that keeps people fighting. It's awful and makes you feel awful. The whole concept here is more fulfilling, it feels like an actual community. I haven't explored lemmy because it's so nice here.

I've done my share of high up administration in game communities, I can attest based on that the amount of entitlement people feel like they have from a group doing something for free or nearly nothing.
I say focus your time on the people worth your time. Don't let toxic folks get to you, or you'll just burn out.
- Probably kids who have no concept of how things work and are used to demanding whatever they want from their parents. Maybe we could make it an 18+ instance for awhile. Just ask a verification question only someone older would know.

Have had nothing but a reasonable bump here or there, I am absolutely thrilled to be here and hope that the expectations you're explaining will finally be understood.
I'm close to someone spinning up a matrix instance and it's absolutely a ton of work and knowledge and troubleshooting and problem solving and just goddamn duct tape and hope on some of this fediverse stuff.
Thanks so much to all the team for the work you all do and I'm sorry for the inevitable of flood of "know it all" posts from people barely able to sign in wanting you to "make it all like reddit". 😩

Thanks for always being so transparent with what’s going on with Beehaw! For my part the experience here has been great so far, and I appreciate the help I received when I reached out with an issue. It was above and beyond, really. I appreciate that Beehaw has different values than reddit, and look forward to seeing how this community develops. Please take care and don’t burn yourselves out!

Aw man. Please tell me you are at least somehow monetizing my Personally Identifiable Information? That's the minimum I would expect from a social media platform in 2023 😉
It's good you keep putting this out there, and this messaging will have to continue. Lemmy really was not ready for this influx of users. Even Mastodon with a much longer history of active development was barely ready for its rapid growth.
This place is great regardless. Glitches and limitations and all. Thanks.

Hi! New user, here. Thank you and the other admins.
I've added my monthly support on the open collective. And implore everyone else on beehaw to do so. Seriously, check https://opencollective.com/beehaw it shows only ~230 contributors compared to the ~12000 users active on this instance: that's only 2%!
(I also recommend supporting the lemmy developers on patreon too)
- Thank you for this nudge, I contributed too and was shocked to see I was number 228. Something special is being built here, and I hope more people can throw in a couple bucks to support it.
- Jumping on the donation train, we're at 233 now. Thank you for bringing it to the forefront of my mind.

If someone wants to browse beehaw on mobile (android) I've been using Jerboa for Lemmy and has been a great app so far!

I think people sometime think they deserve the same experience on a different environment just because they are used to one behavior pattern. As more and more people sign up for a Fediverse instance there is a chance the number of people who thinks like that will increase.
For them I recommend to think twice before they become impatient. Fediverse is for people, by people. Who usually work on their instance in their free time.
As a conclude I would like to thank most of the Fediverse instance operators and users for what they are doing. Without them the Fediverse would be a deserted place.

I just wanted to say, thank you admins and the mods for everything you're doing! I and the community (I hope) are very grateful for what you guys are doing. Please take your time and remember to take rests as well! If you're looking for recruiting for another moderator, I am more than happy to be one and I aware that my account is pretty new lol so I don't if you guys are still looking for moderators or what you guys are looking for. Again, thank you for everything and this community I think is already perfect for me lol.

Keep up the good work!

Keep going you are doing an amazing job!!!

Individual open source project maintainers are in such a difficult spot. People love to recommend users to open source projects as a better alternative to, say, reddit. But users forget that Reddit has tons of employees, engineers, revenue streams like advertising, VC funding, etc etc. Users get their expectations out of line because to them, both services are "free" despite having massively different resources.

I appreciate the scale of the problem you guys are having now, but are there specific limitations that you're hitting that you can clarify on? Is it moderation tools, specific scaling strategies, etc?
With more information the more technically minded among us might be able to help.
- This is a list of the mod tools we'd like : https://discuss.online/post/12787
  The big themes are : better handling of federation, more delegation powers thanks to more granular roles and better mod tools to allow for more granular actions.
  
  Thanks! I recommended adding it to OP so others can find it.
  If its UI based, it won't actually be too hard for someone from community to add the tools. Here's hoping!

Hi there, I'm from KBIN. I've been really impressed with what beehaw has been accomplishing. Keep up the great work. Sorry if it's stressful right now.

I appreciate you.

Good boundaries, respect

Don't forget to take it easy from time to time.
I think us Admins/Instance Owners could benefit from a sort of social federation ourselves. A sort of collection of trusted people and organizations who share similar visions of what an online community should be. Early in this platform such connections could serve as sources of advice, help, solidarity as we venture into uncharted territory.

Y'all are doing fine. Better than fine; for the limitations you're running under, this place is downright fab.
I have a small list of minor annoyances or feature desires that I will happily continue to STFU about until things calm down. You're doing your best. I appreciate you.

Please sign up for patreon.
- Or onlyfans

I think you guys have been doing fantastic so far. The only trouble I've had with the fediverse is getting into beehaw. I just get the spinning wheel of death.
Anyone complaining should either help, or shut up.

I think some more contributors to the Lemmy code base should help ease the pain. I’ll take a look at it this weekend and see what I can do with my limited time. I have a few ideas for Lemmy and the language (Rust) is one I have been trying to get into a project for.

At least know you have someone very happy with your work, the place you maintain, the communication, everything. Thank you, to all of you admin

I'm already blown away by what you 4 have accomplished.

I am satisfied with where things are as it is. The promise of future improvements will only continue to increase my satisfaction. Take as long as you need.

Both admins and users are building something new here. We shouldn't even strive for it to be like Reddit, we should strive for it to be better.
But building something new takes time. We can't compare this all to where Reddit is now, but where it started: https://web.archive.org/web/20050725010627/http://reddit.com/
So we're already a lot better off. Check out other old snapshots: https://web.archive.org/web/20050515000000/reddit.com

I think you guys have been doing fantastic so far. The only trouble I've had with the fediverse is getting into beehaw. I just get the spinning wheel of death.
Anyone complaining should either help, or shut up.

Thanks for what you do!

You could declare certain times and days as "maintenance" days and simply pause activity (if that's a thing?) Just so you don't have to worry about anything that's going on. If someone objects to that, then ban them since they'd be happier elsewhere.

Serious question, completely unrelated, and I don't mean it to be insulting, I'm just genuinely confused by this because I see a bunch of people doing it around here, and I'm starting to wonder if it's like a trend or an in-group thing I'm not getting:
Why are you not capitalizing your sentences and "I"? You're using proper punctuation, you're capitalizing proper nouns, you're formatting text with bold and italicies, you're presumably spell checking, but don't capitalize the first letters of your sentences? It feels deliberate, almost, to do everything else correct and ignore that.
Is it from using Linux too much?
- Why are you not capitalizing your sentences and “I”? You’re using proper punctuation, you’re capitalizing proper nouns, you’re formatting text with bold and italicies, you’re presumably spell checking, but don’t capitalize the first letters of your sentences? It feels deliberate, almost, to do everything else correct and ignore that.
  proper capitalization is boring, stuffy, and formal, and unless i need to write formally i'm not going to do that because it's a weird vibe
- Most likely just a personal stylistic choice.

Thank you! This makes it clear for us as users with the necessary expectations.
As long as the basic functionalities are working then that's all we need, obviously with few hiccups.
We are still here knowing all this :)

Truly, thank you for the work you do! Obviously I cannot speak for any newcomer but myself, but as someone who was admitted just a couple days ago, I deeply appreciate what the admins do put into the site. Fostering a place like this is hard, yet the effort shows y'all are doing your best given your circumstances. I'm happy with what's here, and am excited to see this place grow, ideally at a manageable rate. <3

Thank you for what you're doing and for your honesty and willingness to express your thoughts/feelings. Gotta be honest to have any kind of chance of having sustainability, IMO.

The fact that this place got so many new users and the servers are still going is impressive on it's own.

You guys are doing great, personally I'm enjoying the entire Lemmy experience and even if you did reject my account request I'm still enjoying everything beehaw has to offer as well ✌️

Careful now, that sort of open honesty is going to net you even more users who now have even higher expectations.
- If they're not careless I'm gonna bee (getit? "bee"haw?) on that signup list soon ;P

it is heartening to see how much effort is being put in by you and team.
Don't listen or worry about the noise. I believe the majority of us are extremely happy and grateful to you, for the work you do.
features will come in due course but creating and maintaining a thriving community is a lot of hard work in itself. Kudos!

Obligatory, "lol time to go back to reddit" Comment.

Thanks for all of your efforts! This was a good reminder to become a contributor!

For what this does, it is sufficient for the very basics...us homeless community members cant really be choosers so hopefully with time this can be improved...like someone else said, Rome wasn't built in a day...

78 comments