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Bleeping Lobster @lemmy.world

Aphantasia... apparently 3% of the world has it. Any aphantasists in here, who've had success improving their condition?

10 years ago, I'd have put my ability to visualise at 0 out of 10. Practice and occasional halucinogen use has got me to 2 out of 10. It causes no end of problems in day to day life, so I'm interested to hear if anyone has tips or just experiences to share so it doesn't feel such a lonely frustrating issue.

edit informative comment from @Gwaer@lemm.ee about image streaming, I did a bit of digging on the broken links, the Dr isn't giving the info away for free anymore without buying their (expensive) book, but I found some further info on additional techniques here, pages 2/3: https://nlpcourses.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Image-Streaming-Mode-of-Thinking.pdf

170 comments

  • I sometimes wonder if there's not some sort of miscommunication about what it means to visualize something in your head.

    I don't have aphantasia, but hearing some people try to describe what it's like to imagine something I think some people could get the idea that it's like a voluntary hallucination, literally seeing a thing that isn't there that you can conjure up and dismiss at your pleasure.

    And that's certainly not my experience (though it's possible people have different experiences with it, I can of course only speak for myself)

    The things I imagine don't actually exist in my vision. It's definitely getting processed through the visual parts of my brain, there's a sort of visual mental model with all of the dimensions and color information and such, but it's sort like a video game with the monitor turned off, except since my brain is the computer so I can just keep playing the game, I know where everything is, what it looks like, what it's doing, all of the physics and such still work, it's just not ending up on my brain's screen.

    • This is what I have. basically not aphantasia (we can still manipulate visual imagery in our brains) but it's also not prophantasia which is essentially just seeing, but with thoughts.

    • I know exactly what you mean. To my, my form of internal visualization has always been more what some people consider to be their "mind's eye", but even that has a wide-ranging definition depending on who you ask. I like your explanation quite a bit more than just "mind's eye" though!

      I can't "visualize" a full blown table, the example used in the article I linked, but I can imagine a very abstract form of a table. More like, if you were to take a modeling or 3D drawing program like Microsoft's Vizio and created a table in it, that's more what I can visualize. Or if someone asks me to imagine the sun, I can imagine a clip-art version of the sun, but I can't imagine vibrant brightness with it (another example used in the article).

      Anything much more than that, and I'm no longer visually seeing it, but doing something more that you describe. As a random example, if you asked me to visualize a white neutron star, I can't literally see one in front of me - but it does make me recall memories of seeing one in the game "Elite: Dangerous".

      I've heard theories (I don't know the accuracy of said theory) that when you're dreaming, your brain can't come up with something that's never existed - so when you see people, even random people, they're just random people you've encountered in your life but don't have any connection to. It's a sound theory for me, because that's how my form of mental imagery works, you could describe some totally fictional dragon as accurately and detailed as possible, but I won't be able to visualize it past a really abstract level. So if someone describes a purple dragon but gets really descriptive, I could visualize a generic animated dragon that is purple - probably would look more like Barney to me but... yeah.

      Edit: Although that being said, I've noticed I'm a lot better at visualizing text. When I'm asked "How do you spell $some_word_here" I often find that I'm spelling it out-loud by reading out each individual letter. With programming, I find that when recalling something along the lines of "How do you make a function that does...", I'm using a combination of looking at a block of code I remember, and inferring the missing pieces.

      I guess my brain is just weird...

    • That sounds a lot like aphantasia. I have friends who can strongly visualise and they claim it's like an inner TV that they can control & manipulate.

      • I think that you're falling into the same trap like many others here. Not saying you don't have aphantasia, but e.g. the subreddit is full of people deluding themselves into believing they suffer from aphantasia. Because their experience is similar to what Fondots said.

        I have the same exact experience. But I can still rotate 3D images, paint scenes, draw maps, watch spaceships or compare color palettes in my mind.

        Every questionnaire is kinda based on "do you see it like in real life or nah?". Depending on your definition of "seeing", imo people with the same level of visualisation might choose opposite ends of the spectrum.

      • Since how I'm describing things seems to be ringing at least partially true to you, I feel like that kind of reinforces my point, because I would absolutely not say that I have aphantasia. I think we may be having very similar experiences, and we're just finding very different ways to describe it because the right words to describe it don't really exist, at least not in English at the level we're able to converse at (maybe there are better words that are in common use in psychological or neurological circles, but to most of us would just be meaningless jargon.)

        The inner TV thing is not a bad way of putting how I experience it(personally I tend to think of it as more of a 3d animation program, because I have far more freedom to move things around, change "camera" angles, sizes, shapes, etc.) but it's also not not totally accurate to what I experience either. I could describe it as a full-on audio, video, smell, taste, touch, temperature, etc. experience happenening in my head, but it's also different sort of experience than actually experiencing those sensory inputs in the real world. It happens in parallel to my real world experience, and is equivalent, occasionally even overlaps with it, but is still a separate and different experience.

        I think of it sort of like how hot (temperature) food and hot (spicy) food activate very similar sorts of pain receptors in your brain but are still very distinct sensations. I'm pretty confident that if you found people who have absolutely no experience or knowledge of hot peppers and fed them a habanero, then asked them to describe the sensation of eating it, that most of them would probably come up with descriptors like "hot" or "burning," and we can all understand that, there is something in common between those two sensations that is hard to describe, but they're not exactly the same, you're not going to eat a ghost pepper and think that your tongue is actually on fire.

        For me, the relationship between visualizing something in your mind and actually seeing something with your eyes is a lot like that, and probably even more similar.

        And if someone lands on different words to describe spicy food, like maybe "tingling" or "itching" they're not wrong, even if we disagree with their word choice, nor are they experiencing something totally different than we are, their personal experiences have just led them to choosing different words to describe the same thing. What I'm describing as seeing or visualizing, or as an inner TV or 3D modeling program, you might might be experiencing the exact same thing but finding different words to describe, and we're both using our words in ways that don't make sense to each other.

        There may also be sort of a skill component, some people have a knack for visualizing, and others have to actually develop that skill in some way, and maybe not everyone has the right opportunities or desire/motivation to develop that skill. You say you've somehow built yourself up from a 0 to a 2, so who's to say you haven't been doing it sort of subconsciously your whole life and you've just grown to have more conscious control and/or awareness of it? And maybe with the right training (and I don't know what sort of training that would be) you could continue to develop that.

        And even with that increased skill, you may still find different words to describe how you're experiencing it.

    • Mental images are how I spot typos and misspellings. The way a word is spelled on a page looks wrong to me because it contradicts the visual memory I have for that word. I recently saw spicy misspelled as "spicey" and I knew it was wrong because it looks different than my mental image of the word spelled correctly.

  • My ability to visualize things varies dramatically based on my mood, context, if I'm asleep, and whether or not it's "voluntary". It's never better than a fuzzy, 80-90% transparent image, but sometimes I can "see" color and some finer details, and other times it's just an outline. Involuntary visualization (visualizing something in response to written or spoken statements) is a lot stronger for me than voluntarily visualization. If my involuntary image becomes voluntary (because I try to intentionally maintain it) then it goes away. Additionally, I tend to be better at it if I'm in a good mood than if I'm in a bad mood, and I'm better at it if I'm externally prompted to visualize it ("imagine this if you will...").

    The best way I'd describe it is that it's like trying to catch smoke with your bare hands. The moment I try to reach out and grab it to get a better look, it goes away. Most of the time the images aren't in front of me, but are "in another dimension". I'm aware that the image is there, I'm aware of what color things are, what their shape is, what texture they are, but I can't actually "feel" or "see" anything.

    Except for when I'm asleep.

    My dreams tend to be very vivid. Not like a lucid dream (usually), but vivid enough that it's led me to speculate that my seemingly partial-aphantasia might be less about missing neurons and more about a mental block preventing me from directly visualizing anything (I speculate that you're using the same neural pathways when you're dreaming as when you visualize something while awake).

    For me personally, I think a lot of practice is going to be about training my "mental fine motor skills" and learning how to "be gentle" with my mental images so that I can interact with them without immediately dispelling them in a puff of smoke.

    Something you might try doing is reading short, basic stories (like children's books) without any pictures, with the conscious intent of imagining what you'd see if you were filming them. Don't intentionally imagine things, but keep the idea that you are imagining things in the back of your head. You're creating the belief that you're visualizing something, which may actually help you to visualize it. This is something that people sometimes have to do when they're learning to lucid dream.

    One of the main starting points for lucid dreaming is remembering your dreams; but what do you do if you can't remember your dreams? Well, firstly, start a dream journal. Then, once you've got your journal, notepad, text app, etc open, start writing what you think you dreamed about. You're not "making something up", you're "remembering what you think you dreamed". Your brain is either too dumb to know the difference, or smart enough to understand the intent. Either way, your brain will start to get the message that it's supposed to be remembering your dreams and will start retaining them instead of throwing them away.

    Doing something similar might help with visualization.

  • How I experience aphantasia is as not being able to maintain an image. However I have good spacial imagination.

    • Extremely jealous. My friend can manipulate 3D objects in his mind and I wish I had that ability! I did an IQ test once that broke IQ down into different brain regions, on visualisation I got around 20%, for spatial awareness I got something like 12% haha.

      Your aphantasia is milder than mind, at least you can form the image in the first place. Maybe you might be a candidate for improvement! Have you heard of image streaming technique?

      • From asking family members it seems like it runs in the family, so I don't have much hope it will improve.

        I am able to maintain 1-3 simple objects (so cuboids, spheres etc), though I find the euclideanity of this space to be quite fluid (ie impossible shapes, such as Klein's bottle come naturally), though I can "feel" a few more objects, which can be more complex if I don't focus to much on them.

        As for visualising, I can also maintain simple geometry (& plotting simple functions), and I can let my mind "drift" letting it make random images which morph overtime and I cant focus on the details, or I can focus on trying to imagine something and I can feel like I'm looking at it, but don't really see it, even less details.

        When I let my mind drift I can vaguely control in which direction it moves (kinda like the control style in slider.io if that tells you anything) and I can vaguely steer it to morph into something but it morphs away soon after. It kinda feels like trying to morph a really viscus fluid, if that makes any sense?

  • This (and the human brain in general) is fascinating to me. I've always been on the opposite end of aphantasia, although I've never been officially diagnosed with hyperphantasia. I don't understand it at all it just seems natural.

    When there's a question about physical objects I close my eyes and just check. It's not that my memory is particularly good but I can "synthesize" shapes. I might tell myself a story like, "Start with a point. Expand it into a line segment. Now pull that line parallel to itself to create a rectangle. You can spin that plane around a bit and then grab a point in the middle and pull it up into a pyramid. And so on. I basically watch a color-coded animation when I say something like that.

    With music it can be a bit distracting. I'll go through phases where I get some piece of music stuck in my head and when I do it's incredibly detailed. I can pick out individual instruments in an orchestra and hear reverb. It can actually get so distracting that I have to play a trick to get it to stop. I need to find a piece of interesting music that I've never heard before. I can play that enough times to "drive out" the other one but not enough to "light up" the new one and I'm fine.

    As a kid it was obvious that this was not something everyone did and I thought I was special. It turns out that beyond being an interesting curiosity I haven't found any actual use for it. Too bad. I still find these differences really interesting.

    As an aside, I'm also one of those people that's terrible at remembering names and faces. I often completely forget someone's name and face within minutes of meeting them. I've started using Anki to help with it. I make flashcards of all the people I'm supposed to know and run through them every night. It's a hack that works well enough that (some) people think I'm one of those people that never forgets a face.

    • It can actually get so distracting that I have to play a trick to get it to stop. I need to find a piece of interesting music that I’ve never heard before. I can play that enough times to “drive out” the other one but not enough to “light up” the new one and I’m fine.

      Ahhh finally I have met someone who understands the curse of an eidetic memory for sounds. Earworms can be absolutely maddening when your brain is playing the Cheeky Girls song on a loop for days.

      Very interesting that you have a good visual mind but still struggle to remember names and faces. Have you ever tried using mnemonic techniques for memory, eg linking a name to something amusing, or a memory palace? Can't remember the whole string anymore but about a decade ago I memorised the 8-digit alphanumeric code for my train ticket to prove a point. BG96 is all I have these days (big goat with 9 horns and 6 legs). Apparently the sillier the story, the easier it is to remember (something to do with brain responding to novelty).

      • Are you referring to Method of Loci? I've experimented with it a bit. For a while I would do daily mental walk-throughs of the apartment I grew up in and I practiced visualizing symbols for the 10 digits. After a few months I was able to successfully remember some pretty long numbers. Ironically, I don't remember how long they were. It wasn't that useful though. It took me a really long time to "store" numbers; longer than it would to just write it down. I didn't have a system for storing anything besides digits. Worst of all, the "memory space" was limited to the size of my old apartment. I was able to increase the space by adding detail to rooms but it was never enough to be practical for anything besides trivia. Strangely the repeated "walk-throughs" ended up bringing back memories of smells and textures that I hadn't thought about in decades

        I think I'm much better at remembering and imaging things that can be easily articulated. I recognize my wife with no problem but I can't really summon a good mental image of her. We have a photo of the night we met. I can visualize details of the clothing and jewelry she was wearing but when I "look" at the image in my mind I can't really see her face. It's hard to describe. Almost like there's an image with a tag that says "link to wife's face here" without actually loading it. When I really concentrate on it I can wither get a really blurry image of her face, a really zoomed in image, or a sort of "line art" version of her face. I don't have real prosopagnosia. I can recognize faces, it just takes many more exposures than it does for most people.

  • I have aphantasia, typically a big fat 0 on the red star test. The only times I can visualize at all are when I'm really tired or really high. Even then I only get up to about a 3 at most.

170 comments