Upvoting a factually incorrect comment because it sounds nice, and downvoting a factually correct comment because it sounds bad.
Like Reddit, Lemmy is full of hive mind individuals who like to confirm their bias.
Reddit had a lot of problems. Some of them were caused by having people as admins. Some were caused by having people as mods. Some were caused by having people as users.
Lemmy also has people as admins, mods, and users, so it will see many of the same problems.
Though Lemmy won't necessarily turn into Reddit because it's designed to have competition among the admins, so they are less likely to get a sense of "they don't have a choice even if they don't like what we're doing".
A circlejerk community where facts are thrown out the window. Doesnt matter where its hosted, social media just going to keep doing what its doing.
It seems like there is at least one down vote for every comment that gets enough attention for a few upvotes. I assume there is someone here who just really likes downvoting.
That and, at least on Memmy mobile, you swipe right to upvote and swipe slightly further right to down vote. Also upvote color is orange and downvote color is blue, which is counter intuitive to me personally. So if I get a few downvotes on a comment I think is awesome, I just figure it was an accident and someone was trying to upvote me. Because I'm awesome and who would down vote me?
ETA: See?! 👇 Thanks for the attempted upvote, kind stranger!
I’ve def seen it both ways, lots of this person/this thing is bad types of threads on here with tons of people agreeing while spewing out pure nonsense
Like this https://lemmy.world/comment/3213143
I think Elon is a fuckwit but come on use some common sense it’s nowhere near treason this person has legitimately no clue what they are talking about and it’s upvoted to shit
On the other hand I’ve commented about stuff on here and if I had said the same things on Reddit I would have gotten downvotes, comments deleted or banned, and instead the comments were upvoted instead.
Idgaf about upvotes or downvotes it’s just interesting to see what the majority of people think is reasonable and that’s the way they show it.
Cars bad. Upvotes plz!
I can only imagine they meant 60% of the front view of the house. Otherwise that just seems insane.
But the problem is, words mean things. A lot of people unfortunately, put the wrong words down - and they think internally that it makes sense, but there is context missing in the words they put down. I've had entire conversations that went on for days, only for me to be 20 threads deep, and the person say "I mentioned that!!", and I ask for them to show me where...only for them to realize they've been angry this whole time over something they assumed I was ignoring or misrepresenting. Turns out, they just simply internalized whatever it was, and didn't write it.
We are entirely on the same page
square feet must look funny
It's interesting you're proving your point by your own post being upvoted right now.
The initial number of 42% isn't that far off of reality. My own garage/shop is 36% right now. And I will at some point add onto it. Right now it is 25'x32' and I would like another 20' on it. Then it would be 25'x52' and 48%. And I live right in town, on a regular 1/4 acre lot.
There are defintely houses in Wisconsin here that are at 60%. I can go on realtor.com right now and find properties with large pole sheds and garage spaces that account for 60%.
I don't see any claims of majority, just that it can happen. And it definitely does, unless you don't consider steel frame buildings and pole sheds, but why wouldn't you? Here is one example, and another example, and another example, but I could find plenty of others. Just go on realtor.com search Wisconsin and set garage spaces to 3+ and maximum home size to 2250 sq feet and you will see plenty of examples of 60% and even greater.
Another one. Another one. Okay. I'm done now because I'm starting to get garage envy looking at some of these.
Excellent point. The initial intent of my squabble wasn't trying to deny that counter-examples exist, just that when comparing 100 houses to 100 apartments, that there seemed to be losses in living space for the apartment (law of averages and whatnot).
I had made another comment on that /c/FuckCars thread that calculated that if all of the homes had 1-car garages (which is not uncommon for a lot of dense low-density suburbs), then the homes would be 1740 SqFt with the garage / 1500 SqFt Livable, and the apartments would be 1009 SqFt livable. So a 33% loss of livable space in the image with what I would consider a reasonable assumption.
Fair enough, but that is not discernible from the post. You're highlighting what they are saying, and all they are saying is, "Sometimes, the garage is more than 60% of the whole house." And you are implying with this post that it is factually incorrect, when it is in fact true.
unless you don’t consider steel frame buildings and pole sheds, but why wouldn’t you?
You do not, in fact, count those buildings towards your houses square footage. Doing so would open yourself up to all sorts of liability.
Covered, enclosed porches can only be included if heated and using the same system as the rest of the house. Garages, pool houses, guest houses, or any rooms that require you to leave the finished area of the main house to gain access are not counted in the square footage of a house. source
The only common situations in which the exact size of a home may be legally important would be:
For further considerations of those that are interested (ANSI Draft, figure 1, page 6, outside source as the real ansi website is just atrocious to navigate and I'm not gonna dox myself by loading up local code.)
As shown, the upper-level plan has an open foyer and a protruding window that does not extend to the floor; neither area contributes to the square footage of the upper level. The calculated finished square footage of the entry level does not include the protruding fireplace, covered patio, garage, or unfinished laundry. The finished area of the basement is counted toward the below- grade finished square footage in its entirety, including the area under the stairs that descend from the entry level. The area of the unfinished utility room is calculated by using the method prescribed in the standard but is not included in the below-grade finished square footage.
All that aside, you're slapping a 25'x52' shed onto your 1/4 acre property? That's almost 20% of your land use not including lot encroachment setback, drainage, and basic driveway/building infrastructure. It's your property so definitely do as you wish, but to think this is a common practice or a desirable thing outside of niche hobbyists or being used for work related activities/storage is nonsense. Neighborhood flooding, no natural green spaces for habitats, it all sounds like a horrible dystopia on your mini-compound.
You do not, in fact, count those buildings towards your houses square footage. Doing so would open yourself up to all sorts of liability.
You don't count garage spaces as square footage of a house either, so what is your point? If he's comparing garage space footage to living quarter footage, then you should also include pole sheds into that equation. Fucking think about it... use the context of this conversation, and attempt to apply a little critical thinking.
All that aside, you’re slapping a 25’x52’ shed onto your 1/4 acre property? That’s almost 20% of your land use not including lot encroachment setback, drainage, and basic driveway/building infrastructure. It’s your property so definitely do as you wish, but to think this is a common practice or a desirable thing outside of niche hobbyists or being used for work related activities/storage is nonsense.
No, not adding a shed, extending my garage/shop. It has steel siding, nice windows, fully insulated 6 inch walls finished with osb on the inside, ceiling with tons of lighting, a ceiling mounted hot dawg furnace that takes it from 20F to 60F in literally 10 minutes, and perfect concrete with a drain.
Neighborhood flooding, no natural green spaces for habitats, it all sounds like a horrible dystopia on your mini-compound.
A lot of people use their garages for other things than just storing vehicles. Feel free to take a look at my YouTube videos to see how nice my garage/shop is setup now. And how nice my fenced in backyard looks, and how the garage doesn't take away from it, nor would adding the 20' onto the back of it. And how nicely this and my house all sit on this property. Then you can stop talking out of your ass, thanks buddy! Again, this OP has really been proving his point in a roundabout way, a lot of people in here like you talking out of their asses and getting upvotes.
Wow, what an awe-inspiring counter-example, lol
Am I not supposed to like that? Cause I really like that house design. Garage for days.
That looks amazing. I’d actually have space to work on a project car, plus store my daily, as well as extra storage, probably a server rack and a whole bunch of other stuff. One of the things I notice most about living in an apartment vs my childhood home is how much storage space we had in our garage.
Holy mother of a workshop
Larger garages are more environmentally friendly. My garage is huge compared to my house. It has 2 cars, a laundry, and all of the stuff I don't use every day.
This is an area that is not heated or cooled. By having all the storage in the garage, I can get by with less living space.
Garages are cheaper per square metre than rooms, so you save money there too.
You get all the stuff into the same size house, but with less building materials, less heating and cooling costs, and less clutter in your house.
Wouldn’t it be more environmentally friendly to store your cars outside and not have a garage?
My car is 20 years old and has zero rust. The environmental footprint of manufacturing a car is huge. They last much longer in a garage. It also doesn't need to get washed as often. Washing has an environmental overhead too.
Downvoting it just for using imperial units✊
If they add in the driveway the area would probably be about the same as the house.
If we also add in the necessary roads and parking lots,it is pretty obvious that cars are creating a self-induced demand.
We need to have cars because we need to drive around space for cars.
Still beats the space and maintenance needs of a horse and buggy.
And the maintenance! I've shoveled horse shit for a living before, and let me tell ya, turning a wrench is much better.
You ain't wrong.
When you accidentally consider your hyperbole to be factual.
This just gets worse when you use what developers call a two car garage now. 24x24 would be awesome, it's more like 18x20 now despite bigger cars.
We are in that bucket and in this stupid country there aren't many smaller cars anymore. We're looking for a decent EV that is small and would fit in our garage. I think we have like, 2 options. Everything out there is some crossover SUV bullshit. I don't want a giant car, I just want something smaller and comfortable for 2 people.
This sort of thing has always happened.
I do find it particularly infuriating when it's a topic I'm knowledgeable in/involves my profession. But then I remember most people are stupid and it doesn't bother me too much.
I've had the "You don't work in X do you?" or the "tell me you don't know about X without telling me you don't work in X". Oh boy my fucking bachelors and masters and years of experience in the field say otherwise FFS!
But then I remember most people are stupid and it doesn’t both me too much.
Great mantra to live by.
r/ELI5 was terrible for this
/r/ArgueLikeYouAre5
Many users vote based on emotions here. I often see well written comments with the sources linked and everything, being downvoted, and some low effort reply with an opinion is upvoted, though factually incorrect.
I see that a lot too. This is the art of rhetoric, politics. Not facts. Voting is a human thing. You have to appeal to the human.
Blame the system. Rating system was a good idea to encourage community self-moderation. But,most people treat upvotes/downvotes as likes/dislikes, even when specifically asked to use them differently. And, because of that, places with rating systems inevitably boil down to circlejerking, infobubbles, and tribalism. Too bad the only alternatives are spamholes, chaotic messes with power-tripping moderators, and AI blackboxes designed to control your mind.
AI blackboxes designed to control your mind.
They aren't designed to control your mind but to make money. The mind thing is a side effect.
They wanna make paperclips. The money is a side effect.
People are people. People like to feel good about themselves. Vanity is still the Devil's favourite sin.
Omg, who fucking cares?
Exactly, who cares about the arrows. Sometimes I vote, sometimes I don't. Sometimes my finger slips and I hit the wrong arrow anyway. I don't bother to change it so I take my place as an arbiter of chaos.
I applaud your bitterness. Bravo!
It's an island! Who needs a car on an island? At least on one as small as this one.
There is a ferry to the island on which you can take your car to the mainland ;)
Just park in the mainland
Nassau, the capital of the Bahamas, is roughly shaped like an American football a bit under 20 miles long and 6 miles wide at the widest.
Not Just Bikes did a video a while back about how car dependant it is. Car dependency is unfortunately often self-reinforcing because car infrastructure is ugly and dangerous for people who aren't in cars, which pushes more people into cars.
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I'm the blocked out poster in this.
You keep assuming that the living space is ~1500sq/ft for some reason; the houses I am talking about that are like this are not even half that size, but have 2 or even 3 car garages attached to them. Most of these are living quarters for field workers on the dairies and not even built to code.
Imagine a single 10x10 bedroom that has a kitchenette in it, and a room big enough to fit a shower, toilet and sink, attached to a 2 or sometimes even 3 car garage bay. That's what I see around here.
I mean, I'm not going to ask you to doxx yourself, but I'm extremely curious to know where you're seeing these homes that are, as you describe them, like 150 SqFt of livable area (10x10 studio + 5x8 bathroom) with an attached 3 car garage.
Edit: And to clarify, the 1500 was pulled out of an anecdotal average. My observations while shopping for homes here in the US have been; 2 bed / 1 bath, could be as small as 800 SqFt, but it's cramped. Whereas in middle-class suburbia, it's not uncommon to see 2500+ SqFt homes.
I've seen workers quarters like this in farms, oil fields, rural power plants etc. They're usually supposed to be for temporary or seasonal workers. Just a simple sleeping area + room for vehicles to drive to the jobsite.
This has the issue of always assuming a household will always live in the most space efficient way possible (2 adults in 1 bedroom with no children or others).
Assume you need 2 bedrooms (2 adults and 1 child): A 800-1,000 sq ft home in the USA is somewhere close to the 10th percentile in terms of size, so going down to ≤750 sq ft puts you near the absolute smallest 2 bedroom houses available.
The first house I lived in after college was 950 sqft. Three bedrooms. No garage. It was also built in the 50’s. It worked for three (and then later four) people splitting rent.
Today developers wouldn’t dare put such a house on the type of lot it was on because it couldn’t be profitable.
I don't know the full context of this conversation, but is it normal for homes to have large garages? I live in a 620 sq foot house (way too small, I have only one kid), and no garage. I wouldn't even want a garage, I have a driveway? Some of my neighbors have garages but they are not that large, they certainly don't make up 50% of their space, but some of them 1/3rd, if their house is smaller. Most houses in my neighborhood are bigger than my house but not huge.
Depends where you live; large garages can be normal. Obviously not 60% of the space, but garages can seriously help protect vehicles and you from the elements. They're great if you have severe winters, frequent rain, strong sunshine, and are now helpful for electric car charging.
Our severe weather season includes hail and tornadoes so garages are fairly common.
🤓
same as i have commented in another orange app, people aren't supposed to make sense, so one should spare oneself the frustartion
But I thought downvotes didn't matter. 🤷
I thought you guys said they're both a necessary tool for community regulation and completely irrelevant to normal conversation on Lemmy.
Yet here we are.
Fuckcars is just a cult anyway, they go REEEE at any suggestion that cars are a necessity for many people, and that no busses nor bikes will ever compensate for it.
I've followed the FuckCars community for a while (started on reddit). Being one of them car fuckers myself I would disagree. There certainly are people there whose thought process doesn't go much further than car = bad, but boiling the whole community down to that does a disservice to their more important points. I think most people there aren't so much advocating for less cars as much as they are advocating for policy and societal change toward a world where we aren't so reliant on cars. Obviously for a massive chunk of the world population (especially in North America) cars are a necessity like you said, but do they need to be? Wouldn't we all be better off if the world was less car dependent? We aren't saying that there should be no more cars, just that we shouldn't continue to design our cities in such a way that you need a car to live.
If you are interested in more about where the fuckcars comunity is coming from I would recommend checking out the youtube channel Not Just Bikes. All of his videos are great but I think this one is a good intro to the channel. I also like this one because it outlines a lot of the specific "first step" type things that could be much better (most applicable to north america). Also, his Strong Towns Video Series is really good if you have the time.
(here are a couple more because I can't help myself: Why it sucks to grow up in car-centric cities, How American cities are ponzie schemes, and His video about Stroads)
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I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Thank you for your well thought out, non-reactionary response. This is the energy we need on lemmy. Not more knee-jerk outrage.
As a European, its funny watching these guys talk about "Europe" as this pure implementation of their motorphobic utopia.
A lot of us still drive daily yanks!
Still. I live near Mannheim, out of the 8 people in my circle of close friends, 4 either outright do not own a car or share a car with their spouses, because their households can make do with one or less cars. They can absolutely make do with walking, bikes, tram, bus and train for everything in their daily lives. In many american cities of the same size, that would simply not be an option.
Weird how it's literally impossible to ever live without something no one had 100 years ago
People with chronic diseases: yeah, crazy right?
Are you going to be first in line to give up your computer? Your phone? Antibiotics? Vaccines? Electricity?
Innovation is real, even if you don't personally like it. Motor vehicles are a legitimately good invention, arguably only becoming problematic due to increasing population and urbanization.
Some of them are raging right now at the idea that not everyone who hates cars wants to live in an apartment.
Its like liberals screaming when they findout you can be a liberal and a gun owner.
Or conservatives when you express socialistic rights while also limiting government.
I don't think they live in the same reality I do, or maybe they've never seen Texas? Even if my local area was designed for foot traffic, the amount of space between literally everything here would make it impossible not to rely on a car.
In DFW you can sum about any trip to somewhere you want to be to a 30 minute drive. Favorite restaurant that isn't literally right next to you? 30 minutes or an hour without tolls. Work? That's another 30 minutes. Wanna go to a store nicer than a Walmart? You guessed it. 30 minutes.
Get home from work around 4:30? We'll now you have a cool 5 hours of time until bed time. Subtract an hour of the gym, an hour of cooking and maybe you've got 3 hours of time to do anything else. Waiting for public transportation or wasting time walking would just cut down even more of the hours in your day. Maybe I want more out of life than sacrificing my time to public transportation and walking.
Even if my local area was designed for foot traffic, the amount of space between literally everything here would make it impossible not to rely on a car.
If your local area was designed for foot traffic, then things wouldn't be so spread out. One of the many reasons this is so bad in america (and this is the case in DFW) are the awful parking minimum laws that have ruined so many cities. Since the 1950's new business developments have been required to have a minimum amount of parking so that even at max capacity there would be enough spots. In a less car-centric city almost any place you would need to visit regularly -be it a grocery store, a department store, or whatever else- would certainly be within walking distance of (or a short public transit hop away from) your home and work. But the parking minimum laws spread everything so far apart that to walk or bike anywhere is unimaginable, and it also isn't feasible to build up good public transit because you would need stops at every major street corner (rather than in a reasonable city where you would be taking transit hops between dense clusters of businesses and other destinations).
In DFW you can sum about any trip to somewhere you want to be to a 30 minute drive. Favorite restaurant that isn’t literally right next to you? 30 minutes or an hour without tolls. Work? That’s another 30 minutes. Wanna go to a store nicer than a Walmart? You guessed it. 30 minutes. Get home from work around 4:30? We’ll now you have a cool 5 hours of time until bed time. Subtract an hour of the gym, an hour of cooking and maybe you’ve got 3 hours of time to do anything else. Waiting for public transportation or wasting time walking would just cut down even more of the hours in your day. Maybe I want more out of life than sacrificing my time to public transportation and walking.
You said "I don’t think they live in the same reality I do," but not only is this pretty much exactly the case in the city I live in, but I have given very similar rants when complaining about living in such a car dependent area. Honestly I was confused for a moment because you have some great points on why living in a city designed for cars sucks so much. The reason I consider myself a member of the fuckcars community isn't that I think people should walk/bike more or that I don't like cars. It's that I want our city designs to change. Walking, biking, and even public transit simply doesn't make sense in most North American cities but it doesn't have to be that way. With policy change and redesign projects over time our cities could be so much better.
why are you adding the garage area to the home area? wouldn't that deflate the value when comparing the size of the garage to the size of the house?
It is from a discussion about land use for suburban houses vs high-rise.
Ngl my dream house is a 400sq ft loft style apartment with an 8 car garage.
This seems very unhealthy. Maybe go take a stroll around the block?
Edit: I’m referring to OP or whoever it was that made this image
How exactly is doing the math unhealthy? This is like 60 seconds of math and a few minutes of graphics at most.
I'd rather have someone doing the math and posting it than people becoming misinformed on an important political topic. I think that's what OP was after.
Unhealthy to prove your point by doing the math and helping convince people with an illustration? That's just good practice on critical thinking. Maybe you need to go take a stroll around the block.
That's exactly what came to my mind
I treat them like AntiWork, it’s fun to visit the zoo but living in one means dealing with a lot of random shit.
Fuck /fuckcars
They actually want to bulldoze so much, just so we can cram more people in closer together. And no, no one wants to be walking around when its 90+ degrees out, or literally freezing.
Ive never seen any calls to bulldoze anything. We do a lot of complaining about how much was bulldozed to fill landscapes with stroads and parking lots. And dont act like we're not calling for buses and trains as well. Have you stopped and thought about why it's too hot to walk around now?
"We should allow higher density and missing middle housing to be built and promote alternatives to cars" == "We want to bulldoze everything"?
They throw out all nuance and have absolutely no empathy or consideration that others need to live differently than them. Or hell, need to live differently than them in order to support their own lifestyle. I swear 90% of them have never lived outside the city they were born in.
I generally agree with you about fuckcars. They're sanctimonious assholes. But when it comes to housing, suburban sprawl is always bad.
This is exactly the point I've been making to them. I think it's a bunch of people who have never lived outside of a major city, or grew up in new-construction actual suburban hell like Phoenix, DFW, Vegas, most of FL etc. Try old Midwest small city suburbs by comparison. Maybe parts of the northeast.
They probably couldn't afford a car after used car prices spiked sometime between 2000-2010, and never experienced the freedom and autonomy. They can't imagine not being into a downtown club scene - it hasn't dawned on them that they will probably grow up and hate living in a congested apartment world and might want to stretch out in a bigger house in a quiet neighborhood. It's never occurred to them that not everyone works from home and their spouse may need to take a job 20 miles in the opposite direction.
Do you sell your house because your job changed? Get divorced because your partner's job changed? You can't have ALL of the employment in easy reach by public transit from your home. This ideal-city with perfect transit and no commute is a handwave. UNLESS you live in a sufficiently small town that has everything but hasn't blown up yet - and those aren't dense enough for transit, and require personal vehicles.
Public transit is also more inconvenient than convenient even if you give it a maximum advantage in density and stipulate that the trains will run 24/7 and frequently (NYC).
It's just inexperience with life or being an urban loving weirdo who can't imagine that other perspectives exist. I want to spend all of my free time in places you couldn't service with transit. They can't even imagine it.
And no, no one wants to be walking around when its 90+ degrees out
That's why they want shade, goober.
Even with shade, it's hot.