1y ago

Wales lowers speed limit to 20 mph to cut car use and save lives

www.euronews.com Wales lowers speed limit to 20 mph to cut car use and save lives

The Welsh parliament has passed a law bringing down the speed limit on all residential roads and busy streets to 20 mph (30 km/h). Not everyone is pleased.

cross-posted from: https://beehaw.org/post/7658487

For more detailed information: https://www.gov.wales/introducing-20mph-speed-limits-frequently-asked-questions

118 comments

I'm in favor of lower speed limits, but this will result in a temporary uptick in speeding tickets, followed by loss of interest by local police, which yields no net change. Lowering the speed limit is a band aid fix. It's quick. It's cheap. But it can, by no means, be seen as a permanent solution. If you want people to slow down, you need to make a road that will make people want to slow down. So yeah, I like lower speed limits, but they cannot and do not work alone. It's a step in the right direction, but more should be done.
- They're not just lowering the speed limit. From the FAQ:
  Will the roll out involve money being spent on speed bumps?
  There is no plan to include traffic calming (including speed bumps) as part of the change to speed limits. There are other ‘softer’ measures that might be introduced, such as using buffer speed limits, removing the centre line, narrowing the carriageway visually, using planting etc.
  These 'softer' measures (which definitely are traffic calming) will be essential to make this plan a success. Waterloo, Ontario, Canada is going through a similar process of lowering speed limits in residential areas. The planning staff said they needed the speed lowered so they could implement these traffic calming measures, otherwise the speed limit would be higher than the street design can accommodate.
  
  yeah there are places where you can add a hard separated a bike lane and rejig parking - not so much for the bikes, but to narrow the carriage way and reduce the 'natural' speed of the road.
  
  i can understand not strictly calling paint traffic calming, but planters? what galaxy brain definition of traffic calming are they using where placing a box on the road isn't traffic calming?

I wish my neighborhood would do this. 25mph feels really fast on my street. I usually hover around 15-20 when I'm not paying attention to my speed.
Edit: I am surprised that this was my third most controversial comment since I've joined
- It's been surprising to see just how many pro-car users seem to lurk on these anti-car/pro-alternative transport communities.
  
  They're probably imagining me as that Prius or something slowing them down in traffic. My neighborhood is basically one lane when people are parked, and there are a lot of kids, so if they drove the road they'd understand.
  
  for all it's worth carbrained people all hate each other, too, but boy are they good at rallying around a common enemy
  
  This community regularly makes it to the front page of Everything. It's really not that isolated from the rest of Lemmy
  
  Fuck cars is regularly in my "everything" feed. And most of these measures aim to reduce traffic, which ultimately benefits the remaining car drivers.
  
  I live in a super rural area and would have an almost impossible time working, buying groceries or getting medical care without a car and even I think the vast majority of the arguments against this are dumb as fuck and the epitome of car brained.
- Also lowering it from 30 to 20 realistically means people will now drive 30 instead of 40.

While it sounds good on paper, in practice, they've screwed it up. They're putting the new speed limits in place on every 30mph road in Wales before they've put the public transport alternatives in place.
There's currently no reason for someone to switch to public transport, especially if the buses are going to be stuck at the same speed as the cars, but stopping regularly too. Our roads are too narrow to install bus lanes, and barely have enough room for single file traffic through lots of the towns and villages. The trains are being upgraded, but that's not scheduled to finish until at least next year, and at the moment they're slow and very unreliable. It feels like every week the trains are cancelled and an inadequate replacement bus service is put on.
I'm disabled, and have to travel from my town, Aberdare, to the main hospital in Cardiff, UHW, on a regular basis. If I had to leave now, it would take 42 minutes by car, or 2 hours and 6 minutes by public transport. The shortest journey is tomorrow morning and would take 1 hour and 31 minutes, more than double the time of the car journey. The closest inpatient hospital is 22 minutes by car, or over an hour by public transport. The difference the new speed limits are going to make is negligible compared to how slow public transport is here.
All this is going to do is annoy and upset people, and turn them off the idea of using public transport, and push a lot of people towards voting for the parties who were against this. Out of the main parties, that mainly seems to be the Conservatives, so that's going to be bad for all of us.
- The FAQ in OP's link tells you that it is not all 30mph roads, but rather all restricted roads, with a link to a map of all 30mph roads that are staying 30mph as well as the option to see which restricted roads will change to 20mph. "Restricted Roads" is a classification of roads in law that is defined by the lamppost density, so this change won't affect larger and more rural roads where lampposts are more sparse.
  
  Then they've screwed up the marketing. Everything they've been pushing out makes it appear that it's all roads. Not that there's much of a difference. There's a grand total of two roads in my area, and five in the Aberdare area that will apparently stay as 30mph.
- The Tories originally supported the proposal which is quite hilarious seeing how much stink they are throwing currently.
  I do agree public transport needs more funding but they are in a pretty tricky situation where the Gov has very little money to improve the service (partly due to Wales transport funds being spent on HS2) and at the same time bus usage is down and not recovered after lockdowns. I hope the 20mph limits will encourage more onto busses, but I am not confident.
  
  The Tories are bullshitting to gain support? That's not like them 🤔🤥
- At this point it sounds like me on my E-bike would be the fastest thing on the road. It does 25mph/40kph
  
  Which would mean that you would also be speeding, since e-bikes in the UK are required by law to be capped at 15.5mph (technically 25kph).
  
  and i think the 20mph limit would also apply too - so even if the cap were lifted, you can't go breaking the speed limit just because it's a bike.
- Will this prevent you from using your car though?
  
  Not in the slightest, which is part of my point. It's going to slow down cars and frustrate people, while not having the intended benefit.
- All this is going to do is annoy and upset people, and turn them off the idea of using public transport, and push a lot of people towards voting for the parties who were against this.
  Bingo. But they don't care who they hurt in the process. "Fuck cars = fuck lives"
  
  lmao
  
  Get fucked car lover lmfao
  Completely deranged
  
  "Fuck cars = fuck lives"
  are cars sentient where you live
  
  Shidding and farding over a 1 minute increase on my commute through a residential area
  
  oh fuck off you hysterical dipshit
- It's a regressive tax on people to generate revenue disguised as a public safety measure
  
  Surely it only generates revenue if people decide to break the law?

Amazing news, can imagine how much quieter Wales will become as a result of this
- I mean. Before this all you could hear was crazy "oooooooo" "oooooooooooo" sounds under the water. Wasn't that bad.
  
  naah, all those bloody gangs of orcas, bombing aroung the neighbourhood at 30+mph, right by schools too , about time someone put a stop to it.
  https://a-z-animals.com/blog/how-fast-do-whales-swim/
  
  Ah shit man I thought cthulu agreed to be chill for a bit longer

That's cool. One of the advantages of lower speed limits is that while they slightly improve safety, they massively improve the perception of safety. When people feel safe walking and cycling, they're more likely to do it. So, lower speed limits decrease the subjective desire to drive, and thereby reduce car dependency.
- Do you have numbers on this?
  
  I saw a study a long time ago, but I'm afraid I can't find it now! I think it was UK-based, possibly by TfL or the DfT.

Try that shit in Burgerland and watch government buildings burn for the sake of the vroom vroom treats.
It happened with even the mildest covid restrictions. It would definitely happen with such strict speed limits.
- You joke (probably not), but I was once complaining to my group chat about getting stopped by my job in a "sting" type thing, saying I was on my phone (i wasnt and the thing was dropped). Anyway, my chud friend was so close, complaining how these traffic laws are just ways to suck money from.working people a lot of the time. However, his solution was something along the lines of remove traffic laws, make it harder to get licenses, this will separate the wheat from the chaffe, and the rest can get "bus passes with all the other knuckle draggers."
  I was in complete awe at his stupidity and yeah, called him out on that dog whistle.
  What I'm saying is, you're right... we'd never accept this lol
  
  his solution was something along the lines of remove traffic laws, make it harder to get licenses, this will separate the wheat from the chaffe, and the rest can get "bus passes with all the other knuckle draggers."
  This fits squarely into the the common brainworms of the car is the best transportation there is if all the other schmucks couldn't drive one. Car drivers all hate each other, too

Fuck cars

Finally some good news!

This will hopefully ensure less people get hit by cars when the fights inevitably break out on the roads near pubs after Wales lose to Fiji and Australia and exit in the group stage of the Rugby World Cup this month
- Ouch!

I thought this said whales for a second, and I was very intrigued how whales were causing the speed limit to be lowered. Maybe a whale carcass nearby at risk of exploding? Maybe a bridge that whales like to spout on?

I do not get the 20mph speed limit here. E-Bicycles get to do 15.5mph in Wales, apparently. On a perfect, no traffic, no obstruction 1 mile stretch of road the speed difference here would save you, what, 30 seconds at most?
- Exactly, so it’s incentive to get rid of your car and get a bike
  
  not going far enough there is my point

It was funny watching this get passed, because the main opposition to it in the Senedd has been Andrew RT Davis, a Tory MS who campaigned for it in a few years back in Penarth and is transparently against it because it's a Welsh Labour policy.

This is the best summary I could come up with:
The Welsh parliament has passed a law bringing down the speed limit on all residential roads and busy streets to 20 mph (30 km/h).
Wales will introduce a default speed limit of 20 mph (30 km/h) in built-up areas from next year, in a bid to lower road collisions and noise pollution, as well as encourage people to walk or cycle.
The Welsh parliament voted on Tuesday to back the plan, which will bring down the speed limit currently set at 30 mph (50 km/h) on most busy streets and residential roads.
Both Labour and Plaid Cymru, who have a cooperation agreement and hold almost three-quarters of the 60 Senedd seats, backed the plan, but it has been met with criticism too.
Reasons for opposing the scheme ranged from concerns it could “annoy” drivers to an increase in journey time and congestion.
“They are quite rightly very concerned as they believe that pollution is increasing because cars have to drive in a lower gear and wait longer at traffic lights, there have also been more accidents,” he said.
The original article contains 609 words, the summary contains 178 words. Saved 71%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
- It could “annoy drivers”? Believe me, so many things do.
  Also, it’s very likely that due to lower speeds, less congestion will happen and so, travel time will actually be shorter.
  
  When I drive nothing annoys me more than other drivers.

Also way to make money from the shitload of speeding tickets lol

Another tally on the list of why Wales should be the real England
- WTF are you even talking about? Wales is its own proud nation. Why would Wales need to be 'the real England'? What a complete insult to the Welsh.
  For what it's worth, I'm English!
  
  Anglo-Saxons are all Germans in denial, and all the land they hold should belong to Wales.
  
  Don't feed the trolls

@Tywele
MPH or KPH?
For 🚲 🚲 🚲 too? 😀
- Mph. It says so right in the title
- Yes, for bicycles too. But there is no mechanism to enforce speed limits for them.

Make cars use more gas by having operate at speeds they aren't meant to operate at constantly. Check.
Make people sit in cars longer resulting in longer commutes and more pollution. Check.
Claim that some number printed on a sign magically saves lives. Check.
Do literally anything to actually address the issue at hand. Not check.
- Do literally anything to actually address the issue at hand. Not check.
  enlighten us
- @Name @Tywele Strict speed limits save lives. Lots of lives. Hoboken NJ has a speed limit of 20mph and it hasn't had a traffic death in years.
- Claim that some number printed on a sign magically saves lives. Check.
  Libs successfully analyze context, cause and effect challenge lol
- The senedd is literally just lowering the speed limit in residential areas, it's not like they're lowering speed on motorways.
  It's not going to slow anyone's commute, but it is going to lower the likelihood some child gets flattened going to school.
- The goal is to have them ditch the car. How is this going over your head?
- Go eat some grass nerd lmao
  Imagine being unable to comprehend the point of this law
- Lower speeds gets better gas mileage.
  Lower speeds means spreading out when people arrive, improving traffic.
  The concept of more velocity being equal to more force is a pretty simple and fundamental concept in physics (if you really want to be a pedant the force required to overcome the decelerative forces to maintain a constant velocity at higher speeds)
  Too bad they can't just complain about people doing something instead of nothing on the internet like you.
- Make people sit in cars longer resulting in longer commutes and more pollution. Check.
  I agree. The longer time people spend on the road, the more pollution and traffic you get. The obvious logical solution will if course be to abolish all woke speed limits and instead mandate that motorists drive as fast as humanly possible at all times.
  
  Literally the "more people will die but others will get to work faster, raising productivity" argument

Wouldn't this, in the end, make cars have to shift to a lower gear, thus keeping about the same RPM, and thus eating about the same amount of fuel, which results in about the same volume of the sound produced by the car?
This feels like a terrible fix.
- afaik most of the sound comes from the tires, not necessarily the engine or the exhaust. obviously not the case for every car, but for most commuter cars it is. the faster the tires are rolling, the louder the sound.
  
  i think at higher speeds the wheel and road noise drowns out the engine noise, but at lower speeds its the engine, especially during acceletation.
  in the region of 20-30mph i'd think the engine is probably the louder part.
- While this is a point the naysayers brought up, the slower speeds during the trial period reduced accidents, the severity of accidents, and the slower speeds encouraged more foot and bicycle traffic on those roads
  
  Do you know when the trial period was?
  I ask because the Welsh government apparently carried out a pollution test to justify the lowered speed limit on the main road into the capital, but did it during the Covid lockdown, when most cars were off the road.
- Wouldn’t this, in the end, make cars have to shift to a lower gear, thus keeping about the same RPM, and thus eating about the same amount of fuel
  That's not how cars work, they definitely don't use the same fuel in different gears at the same RPM. See this Wikipedia article for a discussion of speed vs fuel economy.
  And as pointed out by the the FAQ, that's doesn't not factor in acceleration:
  Will driving at 20mph mean I use more fuel?
  No. Fuel consumption is mainly influenced by the way we drive – driving at a consistent speed is better than stopping and starting. Accelerating up to 30mph can take twice as much energy as speeding up to 20mph.
  A default 20 mph limit and a smooth driving style, can help avoid unnecessary speeding up and slowing down, saving fuel.
- Most cars, at least in NA, have excessively large engines. It is crazy that we use 2L engines to carry one person around, when their own legs would suffice.
- Studies have been done on this, and lower speeds correspond with less noise pollution.
  https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160412022005785
- A lot of cars can cruise at 20-25mph just idling in Drive, foot completely off both gas and brake. The RPMs don't get much lower than that.
  
  My forester, when the engine is cold, will idle at about 25 mph :v, it calms down once it's warm, but still. I wouldn't be driving around with my foot on the brake
- if the cars are designed to use the same fuel for less useful output power, then they're very badly designed.
  i'm sure they might be less efficient in terms of miles per gallon. but they surely can't be so bad as to waste absolutely more fuel at lower speeds.
  if they are, fuck them.
  
  People have a misconception that cars waste more fuel at lower speeds, but it's really due to where the lower speeds are happening. Fuel is mostly wasted due to constant stopping and acceleration, like in a city environment with traffic lights and stop signs. On a highway, it's actually more efficient because you aren't stopping so often.

good on them for using real units of measurement for their speed limits.
- New speed limit is 5 fathoms per burger.

118 comments