7d ago

How will the Military be after this mess with Trump?

One thing we can honestly respect the military in america for, is the ability to do some of the most insane things a president or someone with military control in the administration. They might not want to do it, they might feel there are better things to fight for, they may have heavy regret signing and volunteering for the military knowing who the president is. But they do it anyways.

You may not agree with what the military does, but you have to respect them for that reason alone, above all else. The unfortunate fact is that it is wasting tons of their time and in some cases, wasting their lives.

Which makes me ask, after many attempts for Trump to sick the military onto the American people who fund them and are to be protected by. How will they be after it is all said and done? Because I cannot see a solid reason as to why anyone would volunteer for the military, after the amount of power-tripping we've seen demonstrated so far of them.

23 comments

A) You respect someone who is willing to follow 'insane' orders??? Whereas I respect people who follow a higher code of ethics, even if it comes with risk.
- What options do they really have?
  Do you even know what kind of punishments a soldier would endure if they refuse orders? Quite a lot. You sign up with the military, you are signing your life over to them.
  
  I have much more respect for the soldier that disobeys orders but that’s just me
  Following illegal orders is not an excuse and has been rejected for centuries (except by Germans lol)
  The [Court of Military Appeals] has held that "the justification for acts done pursuant to orders does not exist if the order was of such a nature that a man of ordinary sense and understanding would know it to be illegal"
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders
  
  You may not agree with what the military does, but you have to respect them for that reason alone, above all else.
  This premise must be rejected. You do NOT have to respect them for that reason alone, and certainly not above all else.
  Did Nazi soldiers deserve respect, because they were just following orders and they followed those orders and what options did they really have? Were they not also facing the potential of harsh punishment if they did not?
  Not having good alternative options is not an excuse for following orders you know are wrong. Respect is earned when your morality supersedes your orders, despite the potential (and sometimes very real and significant) punishments. Your intentions only get you so far, eventually you need to act or else any remaining respect for you will be gone.
  
  Do you think they didn't know what they were signing up for?
  
  You probably shouldn't be in a military if you can't endure punishment from... a military.
  
  What are they supposed to do? Not shoot children and get a slap on the wrist or even go to jail?

Disrespecting veterans is one of Americas longest traditions. Veterans have lived in poverty for centuries because the government wants them to.
People who volunteer for the military typically do so because they’re in poverty and it’s their best option in life. The military specifically advertises in high poverty areas and also conduct social outreach and minor charity work to drive recruitment.
America needs poverty because it ensures there are always people willing to join the military and work for cheap.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_army_of_labour

You may not agree with what the military does, but you have to respect them for that reason alone, above all else.
You seem to have strange ideas of what I, or others, will respect people for doing?
I would have incredible respect for anyone refusing an order because they feel that it is illegal.
- You have to respect these taliban, all terrorists, really. They may not like to blow themselves up, but gosh darn they do it anyway.

Soldiers have the right and the duty to resist illegal orders. I reserve respect for those who abide by that. Blind respect leads to blind eyes to when they eff up. And this American blind respect for active service members is so paradoxical in the face of how most veterans get treated.
The US military has survived the hot phase of the Korean War, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq. And it probably should have taken more damage as an institution after each of these. It will survive 47 as well. Long drawn out procedures will meter out homeopathic doses of wrist slaps for most involved minus a handful of high profile scapegoats.
- When it comes to domestic use america's military is finding themselves in a bind. I don't think we've seen a president that has pushed so hard for military use in relative peacetime. It's coming into more and more conflict with how the military has been trained and the principles they are held to. I think that internally the military is taking a hard look at what they can and should do about this.
  They all took oaths. Enlisted members say this
  "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
  Those regulations include the laws of war. All military members get yearly training on this. What is and isn't a combatant, what is and isn't a lawful order etc. This includes a duty and obligation to disobey illegal orders, but usually the process is to get clarification from one of their officers. An officer's oath of enlistment looks like this.
  "I ___, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God. "
  Note there is not a President mentioned there. The enlisted have a duty and obligation to disobey illegal orders, but officers play a key role in leading those units, and they have even greater obligations to their units legally. Enlisted members rejecting an order from some officer is one thing. Officers, or many officers rejecting an order is another.
  I think what we are seeing is a careful balancing act. The military is going where they are told to go, but maybe not sending as many or being as aggressive as they administration would like. Stay involved enough to not be outright fired or replaced but try to hit the brakes on this mess and internally pushing back.
  
  Yes, the introduction of an individual, ethical "veto" came after the formation of national militaries like we know them today. There is built in tension to introduce a right to disobey into a system that otherwise demands obedience to function. It's also hard to grasp as a concept even for the better educated. It's fucked up. These days I'm thinking more and more about the adage that morale is something you need to be able to afford. And I understand every sergeant who feels like they don't have any morale money to spend when ordered, say, to fire on shipwrecked drug smugglers. You piss off your boss and before you know it you're dishonorably discharged back to the poverty stricken area you tried to get away from. Also, left-leaning liberals are a minority in a profession that practices how to kill people. There is so much gray there.
  I say I understand the hypothetical sergeant in their moral life dilemma. As far as my respect is concerned, I can be totally black and white about this though.
  The pessimistic take is none of this will matter because the US is moving further away from its constitutional order into a 21st century version of fascism. The military will be ridden of the morale "veto" and sworn to obey the leader no matter what. The optimistic take sees the current cult/fascistoid leadership edged out in 3-7 years and we will mostly see the homeopathic punishment I mentioned before. If we're lucky, a tightening of the rules under which circumstances and with whose authority military units of any kind can be mobilized in peacetime within the US.

This is a long term trend. Since conscientious people with values have found it less and less justifiable to participate, the military becomes more dominated by brutes. Same thing with domestic police.

They might not want to do it, they might feel there are better things to fight for, they may have heavy regret signing and volunteering for the military knowing who the president is. But they do it anyways.
Do you maybe mean the opposite of respect? Because that seems more logical.

The military recruits from young people who are some combination of naive or desperate and then brainwashes them with tried and true indoctrination. I don’t think they’re ever going to want for recruits.

I have to respect them for fulfilling the delusional wishes of a tyrant? Cooooool. Maybe sit down, read some US military history that wasn’t published by a bootlicker and then circle back after you have a nice long think.
You’ve said I have to respect a group that voluntarily (while acknowledging the power of propaganda and the existence of the poverty draft) commits war crimes regularly and generally leeches off the American system (military spending) because why again? Sorry, you lost me.
Because the admin asks them to do “insane things” and they do it. Yeah. Jesus. Insane things like invading foreign countries for the betterment of business interests or toppling legally elected leaders that we happen to not like. Sure bud.
Again. Read some more, have a loooong think and try again.

but you have to respect them for that reason alone, above all else.
No, baby killers should burn in hell.
How will they be after it is all said and done?
Nothing will happen to them, except maybe purging the most obnoxious Trump loyalists. People "volunteer" for the military for the money, so they'll just keep doing that.

The vast majority of people who join the military aren't thinking so logically about the situation. They're young, stupid, and often the money and benefits are the only real priority.

They're probably gonna start committing suicide for the first time ever.

Oh Jesus. If the military was intelligent and decent, they would oppose this shit stain. They are showing who they are. Fuck them.

Oh a nice post, here I brough crayons for you as a treat! 🖍️🖍️🖍️🖍️

the only good soldier is a dead one, just like for cops. you too can achieve this feat today by killing the patriotic soldier in your mind. Aaron Bushnell did an admirable thing by bringing attention to his complicity in the planetary genocide machine that is the United States.

23 comments