EU moving towards total monetary surveillance and banning all anonymous payments

Commercial transactions -

Aaah, the kind of transaction that most transactions are?

Operated by providers

Aah, so any business which accept crypto must KYC every one of their customers. This makes accepting crypto especially burdensome, which is half the point of this legislation in the first place.

So non-commercial transations are fine, as are crypto transactions to non-custodial wallets.

Unless you're using the wallet to buy or sell something. You know, the thing people use money for.

Why does the government need to have every transaction reported to them? Crime is bad because it causes harm. If harm is being caused, that means a person or entity is causing that harm. That means there is evidence. Follow that.

Police have more surveillance and crime-detecting tools than at any point in human history. Nearly every category of crime, particularly violent crime, is on a decades-long downtrend. We all travel with GPS monitors in our pockets. We all use credit cards instead of cash. We all are recorded by CCTV 90% of the places we go. We don't need to give them more financial surveillance because 'crime'.

more reasonable restrictions:

None of that is reasonable.

And these limits will be tied to inflation?

That's all pretty damn reasonable...

why would someone limit me how I can spend my earned and 40% already taxed (taken) money? I gave my life time to earn it, they take half of it and still forbidding me to use it?

Corrupt politicians can simply ignore the law. If they didn't ignore it, they wouldn't be very corrupt.

Consumers payments deserves their privacy, but business ones needs absolutely to be fully traceable.

Could it be possible to use two different yet identical interchangeable currencies, one traceable for making business only, and one untraceable for consumers retail transactions?

loosely i.e.

• wages are Business currency converted and paid in Consumer currency, accounted for the amount paid to the consumer in his name
• end-users/home/consumer purchases are made from consumers anonymously in Consumer currency, and this is converted converted into Business currency upon transaction, keeping only the consumer name anonymous but tracing everything else
• B2B transactions are made in Business currency, fully traceable

... I don't know there is probably still a loophole

I am pretty sure the lesser part of corruption is cash. Probably more stuff like exchanging a lucrative contract for political support.

They are not stupid. Afterall cash needs to be explained, a good contract gives you cash and the explanation.

After the Panama Papers and everything like it I've experienced in my life, I truly believe it doesn't matter if very wealthy or powerful people are exposed on anything they do unless it involves what Epstein did. Financial crime is not generally of interest, regardless of how interesting it might be to you and me. Sure this can be used to fight corruption, but why is the system corrupt in the first place? Is this really going to be used against those corrupting influences or is it going to be used as another of the many tools in the drug war?

But fighting corruption is not a goal I'm ready to pay any prize for.

Russia almost did it. Now it's finally free of corruption!

Haha , nope. It's way more corrupt than before. You can even purchase on the dark web a list of items your person of interest bought this year.

so ban it only for government (people and assets) related transactions

True that. The system that we have is the product of many painful lessons, taught to us by global crises and crimes. People, who oppose this system, should stop reading nonsense on reddit and 4chan, and start with books and lectures from educated economists.

Putin's corruption works fine without anonymous payments

This doesn't seem that much worse than American rules that have already been in place for a long, long time.

Do you really want to be like the US, though? I think maybe that's not a great idea. (Source: am from US)

Just because one country has it doesn't mean another should adopt it

And the USA system is bullshit and I'm against it.

Here in Germany Cash payments for houses are a great way of laundering money for the mafia. Similar roles have als been proposed a while ago

Anonymity is important for various reasons. You can't predict everything bad a government will try to do to stifle freedom that a person may want to avoid. Off the top of my head, I could see someone trying to pay for an abortion or something like that in a southern state where it's illegal, for health reasons to save their own life.

To me the problem is that you wouldn't be able to buy a car anonymously anymore, while it leaves the really rich pretty much untouched.

Art is a well known angle for money laundering or giving someone a huge sum of money pretty much without any regulation. Contracts for construction or even consulting are another way.

I don't have access to this kind of playground - chances are, you neither. But the people supposedly targeted by this kind of law (corrupt politicians, organised crime, ...), do have access to these things and are therefore not impacted.

I use Monero for donations too on a regular basis. From what I understand, the people accepting donations would no longer be allowed to sell them to professional platforms (silly as those are the ones KYCing).

Let's say you have political beliefs and would like to donate to such causes, March against genocide, stand with local essential workers, union fee. Some places like Hungary might be very dangerous if everyone knows what you spend money on.

"It's not about me so I don't care"

Principles

You don't need it right up until you need it.

Depending how inflation goes €3k limit will soon be in the territory of regular smartphone price or any slightly more expensive household purchase. AFAIK €1k 3 decades ago would be about €3k now.

That is assuming no one tries to push the limits lower, which is almost guaranteed to happen.

Well I'm not in the EU, but in my situation I live in a shithole in the US called Tennessee. I have cancer that can be removed, but I don't have the quarter of a million for the surgery. It's been impossible to get a surgeon to even look at me, 2 years looking and still no surgeons will even let me in their office.

I need medications but the med I need the most is $8000 a month, it suppresses my autoimmune system and alows me to heal. My cancer is vary rare, it's called a neuroendocrine tumor, it's caused by extreme stress, this is because I'm a natural born empath, but saying that out loud usually gets a knife in my back from anyone near me carrying dark energy.

But to get to the point, I can get some meds occasionally for cheap, as long as they're sold for cash, but if that gos away then I definitely will die much faster. Seems on par for the life I've lived, care about everyone, then have everyone try to kill me.

• tacking of payments gives those in power (banks, [bad] governments,...) Mechanism to completely profile and manipulate you. Your spendings says EVERYTHING about you. You might not care because you're living in peaceful and stable (e.g. not in economic crisis like Venezuela) times, but the world and many governments are visibly changing for the worst. It gives them unlimited power to introduce any kind of taxes and fines or means of blocking you from moving away with your money to somewhere else. You don't agree? They can still get to your money.
• limiting cash or anynomous payments takes away your financial freedom and strongly increases your dependency on banks. Banks put limits on your money that you can't fully control, they block your transactions for whatever they find suspicous. They can charge you whatever they want. There's a lot of corruption and money laundering with banks, that are the the most regulated institutions in the world ( except for armies probably), proving that even with a lot of control and legislation, those in power can still do whatever the fuck they want. Banks also take risks with your money and there have been crisises caused by them before. Most of them invest in oil, war and other ventures that are profitable for them. They manipulate markets for profit and for the worse of the common man. There's a lot you can read about those things. Becoming so strongly dependant on banks give governments limitless power on what to do with your money and block it whenever they want. Truckers protested against government in Canada => bank accounts blocked.

Whether or not some or all of these examples matter to you, one thing you have to understand and always defend is: you are the boss of your of money. Your ownership and control over your money is evenly linked to how much freedom you have.

Another thing you also have to understand, even if you think full visibility and control for governments is a good thing to solve crime, corruption and/or money laundering: there are and have ALWAYS been black markets. And the worse countries are off, the stronger these markets become.

There isn't really. Most people are unaware that most crash transactions and withdrawals anywhere close to those amounts will almost always have to be reported to the government of whatever country you're in. But, you know, EU bad....

There's no wholesome reason to need 10k in cash. Even the examples here of paying for an abortion is a problem with reproductive freedom and not cash. You're not suddenly going to get away with it because you "sneakily" withdrew 10s of 000s in cash, right before you travelled to a state where abortion was legal. Political donations can be made in small, repeated sums. Specifically, as they dont sell large value items.

Unless you're a hired assassin, a paedophile network, a corrupt politican or a drug cartel it's not going to effect your business.

In reality, most of the nay sayers are people who take cash payments for the work they do to avoid paying the taxes the rest of us have to pay, for the things we all use.

The limit is not by single payment but by purchase/receipt.

How do you think they're paying for art?

So that you can't sell later ?

Yeah, lose all your money so you don't have to worry about it being surveilled!

Monero is like an unregulated stock. If you want to use it for a purchase, you want to wait until as late as possible to actually purchase any.

A better strategy for staying private would just be hoarding money under your bed.

Thanks, US puritanism.

If you have €50,000 worth of Monero, they can't know and won't care. If you transfer it to someone else you'll be under the radar. If you try to cash out your Monero, they'll find out and you're in deep shit. Monero is worthless to most people if you you can't exchange for fiat.

This is for businesses, and businesses are required to have proper accounting and audits.

Lol, what a shill. I guess that's because the mafia follows rules?

Don't give up on your rights just because it's easier to be lazy and not defend them. Stand for all them, whatever they might be

You obviously didn't read it. This is specifically targeting businesses, not individuals, so you'll still be able to use Monero and whatnot to buy stuff from companies, they just need to have their crypto wallets at a custodian (presumably for tax transparency). Likewise with cash transactions, large transactions are rare and unnecessary between businesses.

Use Monero, burn the planet, don't buy anything useful with it as it can be made illegal after one legislation and don't forget to actively swap it between 10 other different cryptocurrencies. Also thanks to Microsoft for hosting Monero official source code repository.

Monero is a terrible investment long term. Pricing is hard because the value is always changing