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I'm ready to install Linux, but I'd like your opinion first

Hello I'm Doctor_Rex I'm the OP of this post:

My Windows 10 install broke, but I'm hesitant to switch to Linux.

I'd like to start by thanking everybody who responded to my questions. Your answers have helped a lot when it came to my worries on switching to Linux.

I've taken in a lot of your recommendations: Fedora, Fedora Kinoite, Nobara, Bazzite Linux, VanillaOS,

I've decided on Fedora Kinoite, as it has everything I want from a distro.

It was very kind of you all to answer my questions but after making that post and reading your answers new questions propped up.

These questions are a little more opinionated than the last ones, and a little better thought out, but please take some time to answer them.

Questions:

  • Is Wayland worth using? Especially when you consider all the issues that may come from using an NVIDIA card.

Are there any real noticeable advantages/improvements to using Wayland over Xorg.

  • Does bloat actually matter or is it just a meme?

Does bloat actually have a noticeable negative impact on your system or are people just over reacting/joking.

  • What are some habits I should practice in order to keep my system organized and manageable?

Any habits or standards that I should abide by in order to save myself headaches in the future?

  • Any other resources besides the Arch Wiki that I should be aware of?

Self explanatory.

  • What do you wish you knew when you first started using Linux that would have saved you a headache in the future?

I'm not referring to some skill but instead something pertaining to Linux itself. Feel free to skip this question.

I'll be going to sleep soon, so apologies if I don't reply but please take a moment answer any questions you think you can.

Thank You!

Edit: AUR = Arch Wiki. Fixed a typo

86 comments
  • I wouldn't worry about wayland vs xorg at this point. There are reasons to prefer one over the other but, as a new user, if it works it works. And if something is broken, it's easy to switch between them (I assume it's an option in the login screen?).

    I'd just recommend whatever your distro defaults to, because that's what they think works best.

    Same as systemd if you stumble upon an argument about that at some point. It's something the distro has made a decision about and taken care of, so it's not something you have to choose.

    As for a tip: On Linux, the "app store" (I think it's called "Discover" in KDE?) is actually pretty good compared to Windows. If possible, applications should be downloaded from there rather than directly from websites.

    • You should never download software off of websites. That is really bad practice and will break things sooner or later.

  • 1) Is Wayland worth using? Especially when you consider all the issues that may come from using an NVIDIA card. Are there any real noticeable advantages/improvements to using Wayland over Xorg.
    If you have an Nvidia card you're probably best sticking to Xorg for now. I'm currently running Xorg with Gnome 45 since I have a GTX 1060. As I understand it Wayland is better at handling refresh rates across multiple monitors, as well as DPI scaling. These are minor issues compared to having everything working smoothly. I do feel like Xorg is on the way out now however, and I expect to switch off of it in a year or two.

    2) Does bloat actually have a noticeable negative impact on your system or are people just over reacting/joking.
    It's mostly just a meme. It certainly won't slow you down. What it does do is take up space on your hard drive and in your menus. I do understand taking pleasure in ensuring that your system is trimmed down to only what you really need. But don't worry about it at all.

    3) What are some habits I should practice in order to keep my system organized and manageable?
    The same habits you have on Windows. Keep your files and folders in order. Beyond that there's not much you need to worry about, especially with Kinoite.

    4) Any habits or standards that I should abide by in order to save myself headaches in the future?
    Not that I can think of off the top of my head. Most important is leaning to RTFM, meaning go read the documentation for your distro (or just look at the Arch wiki) when you have an issue. If you run into a problem and need to ask for help, make sure you don't do the XY problem.

    5) Any other resources besides the AUR that I should be aware of?
    I don't think Fedora Kinoite supports AUR, that's an Arch Linux thing. You'll be getting 99% of your apps from Flatpak.

    6) What do you wish you knew when you first started using Linux that would have saved you a headache in the future?
    A long time ago I made a thread that got shared around a bit about how I thought the command line was pushed by Linux anoraks who didn't understand the needs of the common user. I've used Linux a lot since then and I've changed my perspective: the command line is your best friend. It lets you do exactly what you want to do very quickly. It's fast, it's efficient, it's beautiful. If you learn it a whole world of additional tools command line tools will open to you (ssh, grep, etc). There's a reason that places like /c/unixporn love pictures of open terminals with neofetch loaded up.

    • Thank you for answering.

      I'd like to ask you some clarifying question.

      1. Linux uses the File System Hierarchy which Windows does not use. How do I keep my system organized while keeping to the FSH.
      2. This isn't really a question but my thoughts on your answer.

      I really like the command line. I enjoy using it more than GUIs, but I don't think the terminal should be pushed to the common user for mass adoption. Many of my friends don't own desktop computers, some don't own any other computer besides their phone. When I introduced them to my desktop, they were typing at less than 20 wpm with 2 fingers. No matter how great of a product Linux becomes in the future, It won't see mass adoption as long as

      A) non consumer friendly UX gets pushed and

      B) There is no marketing force behind it

      I really only learned of and got into Linux because SomeOrdinaryGamer and r/Unixporn. These were my first positive introductions to Linux. On my marketing point, Android, for example, has side loading, Fdroid, and lots of options for customizability, yet iOS is still the dominant market share and is continuing to grow.

      If Linux want true mass adoption then there must be a real effort to make the command line as optional as possible, or the linux community must start trying to appeal to the types of people that would give Linux a shot if they new it existed. Returning to SomeOrdinaryGamer, that man gets millions of views per month and I seriously doubt most of them are Linux users.

      • Linux uses the File System Hierarchy which Windows does not use. How do I keep my system organized while keeping to the FSH.
        Altogether it's actually not that different from Windows, it's just shuffled around a bit. You'll have your /home/yourusername/ folder, which is where you'll put most of your files. If you have more than one hard drive in your machine you can mount it under /mnt/ and then store the files on it as you would normally. You don't have to worry about where your programs are stored (your package manager will take care of that for you).

        re: the command line
        For the most part I agree, but I also think it's a solved problem. A linux install with Gnome is on par with Mac OS when it comes to user friendliness, with no need to ever look at a terminal in order to do things. The UX here is nearly a solved issue. However I also feel that "growth" or "mainstream success" is no longer something I feel like I need linux to achieve. When I started using Linux in 2009 half of the programs I tried were pale copies of proprietary software. WINE barely worked. Game support was almost non-existant. WiFi drivers were genuinely almost always broken. Flash forward fifteen years and all of these issues are fixed. Using Linux on a day to day basis makes me happy, I no longer feel like I'm missing out on anything by using it. That is such an incredible leap to take. The key takeaway is that all of these problems were solved without Linux becoming "mainstream". It and the community around it have just kept moving along and making it better over time. It's been lovely to watch it grow like that. A fully-featured and powerful terminal is just one part of this fantastic, open computing environment that I love.

        As an additional note to this, I do think that Linux is poised to really take off among one particular demographic: PC gamers that build their own machines and can now finally see a good alternative to forking over $150 to Microsoft for their OS. The Steam Deck has definitely turned heads here. I don't think the legions of people buying laptops to take notes during university lectures and browse Facebook (the "20 wpm typers" out there) will be very interested in Linux machines no matter what we do, so let's focus the energy where it counts.

      • Not something that you asked, but please remember that most of the distribution managers know FAR more about the system than you do. If at all possible, be sure to follow the recommendations at DontBreakDebian (adapted to your system of course), to make sure you have a stable system.

        That means things like avoiding whenever possible installing from random sources or changing settings that you don’t really understand. Whatever you do, don’t try to change anything about the kernel, graphics drivers, or standard libraries / shared packages unless you’re absolutely certain you know what you’re doing.

      • Windows has a filesystem hierarchy. It's super similar to the *nix filesystem hierarchy because that's what Microsoft mimicked with nominal differences.

        /home/username is the same as \users\username

        /bin is similarly what \windows is.

        /sbin is \ProgramFiles

        /etc is your windows registry. Only you can easily edit it with nearly anything. And it's generally hyper documented. Unlike the windows registry.

        Gnome and KDE both provide fairly polished GUI for 80% or more of what an average user is likely to need to encounter. There is generally no need to sideload. In fact, the concept doesn't really exist. You are the system admin. You are root. There is no one to circumvent on your system but yourself. 90% of the software you could ever want will be within a distros repository. But these days you can download app images, flat packs, etc. That allow programs to be run on multiple different systems as long as they're binary compatible. Because those containers pull along all dependencies needed to run said applications. But even then depending upon the app etc you can still pull from other distribution, repositories etc sometimes . Under Arch. I have had things installed from the aur that turned out to be Deb files that it downloaded extracted and then dropped the files in the right place. However, that can only be done when required libraries are met. If the versions differ by too much. Which can easily happen between different versions of the same distribution, let alone other distributions. That won't work. It's like the missing dll files under Windows.

        The Wayland xorg issues. If you need "just works" that's going to still be Xorg for a while to come. Though many distributions are moving to Wayland being a first class choice since it has come far enough. I have only had Wayland issues with two programs ATM. And only one of those is common, and the issue mostly cosmetic. Window decorations missing on Firefox. And that may be down to my chosen window decorations. The other is an obscure 3d game primarily made for Windows since 2004. That does have a Linux version. But under Wayland currently it goes seizure mode.

        Linux already has mass adoption. (Servers) Desktop adoption is only a hurdle because of monopolistic anti competitive practices from Microsoft and Apple. A lot of that specifically due to momentum from Microsoft. They actively punished integrators that attempted to ship any OS but windows. And it's largely stuck around that way. A lot of the first party SI that still exists offer zero non windows solutions to home users to this day because of it. There are SI that do provide it. But they are often rather niche and fairly unknown. System 76 being one of them. It's very little to do with command line etc. Only when system integrators all start offering it as a general choice will the home user see much change.

    • make sure you don’t do the XY problem.

      Thanks for the link. That's funny because translating Y to X is basically the core task when developing client-specific solutions.

  • Wayland: I would (and do) stick to xorg for now. Wayland isnt quite at the level where it can fully replace xorg yet.

    Bloat matters, but not to a worrysome extent. Most users probably won't notice it outside of specialized customization, and I'm sure you won't either.

    Not so much on the managerial or organizational side, but I highly recommend getting used to and comfortable with the shell. Start with the easy stuff: file operations such as mv, cp, chmod and so forth, and use a text editor of your choice to edit text files. The memes would have you use vim, and while that is my preferred editor, more beginner friendly ones, such as nano, will do just fine.

    Resources: I find that most of the time that I need input, either asking somewhere relevant (such as here), or looking it up on stackexchange will give me the result I'm after.

    Things I wish I knew: When you can achieve what you want via the package manager, do it. Installing and removing stuff without it tends to gradually change your OS into a state where every library requirement is in conflict with some other requirement.

  • I've been using linux exclusively for about 5 years, hopped a bit for the first 1-2 years (mint, mx, lite, debian, manjaro, artix), settled on Arch. I think Mint is the best one for ppl coming from windows.

    Is Wayland worth using? Especially when you consider all the issues that may come from using an NVIDIA card.

    IMO no, i have a 1060, tried about 1 year ago and it had lots of issues on KDE, gnome seemed usable but it's gnome so no, and i use LXQt so if it gets good support or if i like plasma 6 i might try again.

    Does bloat actually matter or is it just a meme?

    If by bloat u mean installing lots of packages, the "problems" would be disk space and longer updates, and if it's a service it will depend on the distro, i think debian/ubuntu and derivatives will usually enable the service after install, so they will use some cpu/ram too. Shouldn't be too much of an issue but it's a good idea to only install what u need and remove stuff when u don't need anymore.

    What are some habits I should practice in order to keep my system organized and manageable?

    Just don't sudo install anything outside the package manager, like node/python packages or downloaded stuff (u can usually install them somewhere in $HOME)

    Any other resources besides the Arch Wiki that I should be aware of?

    No, whatever search engine u use should be enough.

    What do you wish you knew when you first started using Linux that would have saved you a headache in the future?

    Nothing i can think at the moment, i used mint in dual boot for a while, just "switched" (deleted the windows partition) when i realized i didn't boot it for a few months, so i was already pretty comfortable with it.

    • "Is Wayland worth using, especially with Nvidia" I have no personal first-hand experience with Wayland; I run Linux Mint Cinnamon Edition, which is still X11 for the moment. MY personal philosophy is I'll adopt Wayland when Mint does. Basically don't worry about it.
    • "Does bloat actually matter or is it just a meme?" It is 93.3% just a meme. The most extravagant diamond encrusted froie gras kitchen sink apocalypse bunker mega yacht Linux distro you can find is going to be slim and trim compared to any currently supported edition of Windows. You will legitimately find some folks in the community who would just rather go edit a config file than have a GUI that edits it for you, and you'll find some woodworkers who prefer to use hand planes and chisels. A hobby's a hobby.
    • "What are some habits/standards to keep my system organized and manageable?" Mainly, learn how the file system works, learn what /opt and such are for. Otherwise your skills for managing your files on WIndows should suffice.
    • "Any other resources besides the Arch Wiki to be aware of?" Man pages. You can read the documentation for any command in the terminal by typing "man commandname." For example, to learn more about the change directory command, cd, type "man cd" and it will tell you all about it. It even has its own man page, you can type "man man". All of this is stored on your system locally, so you don't even need an internet connection for this.
    • "What do you wish you knew when you first started using Linux?" What middle click does. There's a thing called the primary buffer which allows you to highlight and paste text simply by highlighting text, then middle clicking somewhere else. It's separate from the Ctrl+C Ctrl+V feature. Also, what dotfiles are. Short answer is, hidden files on Unix-like systems start with a dot (.) and there's a ton of them in your home folder. These often hold things like configuration files for applications, so backing up your entire home folder including hidden files will catch all your preferences. Plus, there are directories like .fonts where you can put TTF font files and they'll be available to applications. It's something you don't often get shown during onboarding but it's there.
  • I highly recommend timeshift. It makes it easy to make system snapshots (think system restore points) at regular intervals so that if you try something and it breaks your system, you can restore it to a working state. It has saved me hours of work from all of the reinstalls that I didn't have to do. I wish I had something like this when I first started out with Linux. It would have saved me dozens of Linux installs.

  • on wayland vs Xorg.
    i've found a few things that demand it (e.g. Waydroid - an android emulator)

    So I've started using KDE plasma recently (previously I was XFCE due to speed and lightweightness).

    KDE plasma gives a choice of wayland or xorg on the gui login screen,

    Assuming the K in kinote stands for KDE plasma, becuase that's how these things go - then you should be abe to choose - so you don't need worry about wayland, just log back in and pick the one you need, or the one that works for the task at hand.

    • Kinoite is the KDE plasma version of the Fedora atomic (previously known as immutable) spins yeah. However, as far as I've heard Fedora KDE is explicitly removing Xorg support in Fedora 40, due for release this spring.

      Right now the latest release is 39 which still supports both, and for me personally when I still had an Nvidia card up until right after the 545 driver release in October, Wayland (in both GNOME and KDE) was too buggy for me to use it as a daily driver, since Xwayland apps kept displaying previous frames, as if the application was time-jumping in random parts of it.

      Speaking of Nvidia, I wouldn't recommend going with Kinoite directly since AFAIK it doesn't have the Nvidia drivers built in, rather I'd go with the KDE version of Universal Blue since all of their images have a dedicated Nvidia image that has the driver built in, so that you don't have to mess around to get it up and running. It's effectively Kinoite, with a few extra nice things baked-in on top.

  • I would be careful using Kinoite as it hasn't been around as long and doesn't work in the same way as a transitional system. This means you could be on your own when it comes to issues. This could be especially problematic as most of the help online isn't going to be related to Fedora let alone Kinoite.

    I would recommend Linux Mint to anyone and I use it in a VM for a bunch of things (main system is Proxmox and Fedora). It has normal apt and you can tweak it as much or as little as you like. It is very easy to use and is suitable for a broad audience.

  • I'd say avoid Wayland for now. There's no real benefit to it at the moment and at least your card works with X11. If the Linux Mint team are happy to wait and just test it out at the moment, that tells me that is the way to go.

    Not sure what bloat people mentioned but Linux doesn't have bloat. The distro chooses their preferred apps which they hope everyone will like but it's easy to remove them if you don't and use the app you want. If it's a system app (.deb, rpm etc) it will barely take up any space anyway. Only flatpaks and snaps take up huge amount of space. I wouldn't recommend using alot of those as you'll be pressed for disk space

    Linux doesn't require maintenance. It typically just works. It's not like Windows where you run a cleaner every so often. Just just use it normally and don't work about it.

    What I wish I knew at the start: Linux Mint is the best distro. I wasted a lot of time distro hopping only to realise I just want a stable distro that gets out of the way but is thoughtfully put together with nice touches. Mint is that. I use Linux Mint Debian Edition because I don't like canonical.

    It's been rock solid except for when the kernel broke my WiFi, but I had a time shift backup so in 5 minutes I had my pre-update system back and working.

  • Does bloat actually matter or is it just a meme?

    What is bloat. If I recall correctly fedora or RHEL (or both) enable the cups daemon even if you will not print anything. If I recall correctly Ubuntu enable openvpn service even you will never use it.

    But it seems neither of them have tmux installed by default.

    Feel free to test and correct me because I won't bother those distro anymore.

    Any other resources besides the Arch Wiki that I should be aware of?

    arch wiki is a tutorial.

    Manual pages are best, and if GNU hells put the documentation in info pages, you can install info.

    If the manual page is unreadable and the program is part of the base system (on BSD all 3rd party "packages" are installed on /usr/local and base system is installed on / and /usr), try reading the BSD (OpenBSD) maintained documentation. They are also provided on-line.

    What are some habits I should practice in order to keep my system organized and manageable?

    The first is to drop all the things you learned in Windows. Many have no value, many are flawed and create bad habits, many are disposed.

    New linux user often prefer GUI or menu instead of command line tool (what I mean is different, see the next sentence). They prefer to browser chromium and chat and typing this comment instead of taking time reading manual page, books, learn how to maintenance their system, even you need to learn how to INSTALL YOUR SYSTEM CORRECTLY!! You use 'a' huge a partition (sorry, root / partition) with an EFI partition and a /boot partition (and perhaps a /home partition too, and that's the end?). No /usr, no /usr/local (this hierarchy is not used in Linux so keep it small), no /var, neither the /opt hell?

    To keep your system organized and manageable, you first need KNOWLEDGE.

    What to learn:

    install and maintenance the system: partitioning, use your package manager (I hope you won't read websites that have to teach you to use your package manager but the main topic is to use some software). Example: Absolute FreeBSD; Absolute OpenBSD (Michael W Lucas, although this is for FreeBSD and OpenBSD).

    Learn not to wine (don't run windows software on other operating system since it will need much kernel modification, OpenBSD explicitly refuse to do; I think running windows software on linux is unstable and insecure; I'm hostile with wine.)

    UNIX programming: The UNIX programming environment; select some (like sed, awk) in the UNIX 7th edition manual pages, volume 2 which are tutorials that are still valid these day; manual page.

    useful addition: get on tmux,

    Enough for a regular user?

    my personal habit:

    I think I'm so lucky that I never do neofetch; once tried to decorate LXQt with the arc theme and then never used LXQt (since I switched to sway), if decorating the graphical interface make no sense to convenience I wouldn't do (I myself hostile with unixporn or something like that, mean I never care about such community) and never created a colorful github's myname/myname repo readme. (of course at the time I didn't do learning since I'm chatting and being an discord terrorist)

    What do you wish you knew when you first started using Linux that would have saved you a headache in the future?

    I wish I could know what books to read

    But when I know it's too late (wasted 2 year using linux and learned almost nothing), and I have already switched to BSD. "Gần mực thì đen, gần đèn thì sáng." (Near the ink you get darker, near the light you get brighter, that's my poor translation.)

  • I've been running kinoite on my laptop for a short while now, and I wanted to address a few miscellaneous things.

    First: I recommend trying the out of the box experience for a while before going far customizing it. For example, someone mentioned your filesystem layout with subvolumes: that's the default in kinoite: home, var, and root are in subvolumes.

    Second: Wayland either is or is about to be the default in fedora (I'm running the beta for the next version, and it's Wayland by default). Try it and see if you have issues before trying to switch to x11.

    Flatpak is your first stop for installing software on kinoite, but the fedora repo that's configured by default is missing a lot. If

    <your favorite search engine>

    shows software available that you don't see in discover/flatpak, you need to add the flathub repo, which is easy to do, but not obvious (to me) that it wasn't the default.

    Finally, Nvidia experience might not be good ootb. You might need to take extra steps to get the proprietary Nvidia driver.

    Good luck with your endeavor!

    Edit: Firefox

    I don't understand why the default install of Firefox isn't the flatpak version. Switch to the flatpak version and you won't have to worry about codecs.

    Lol, I just noticed that this thread is 3 weeks old... How is your setup working out?

  • Don't listen to the trolls please, you have to think long term, how will you grow in the next 2 to 5 (or even 10) years, because without a doubt you will grow and have a learning curve which alters the way you will use your machine. There are tons and tons of solutions and people pitching it from their Linux ricer power user perspective.

    Don't make yourself regret and/or spent countless hours switching back and forth, solving issues, looking through help articles, etc etc

    I know it's hard but trust me, you literally cannot make a good choice now with your current state. Just install Ubuntu and get a hang of it, use it, do your stuff you want to do and when you are comfortable with Ubuntu, then throw that piece of junk in the trash and switch to Debian Stable - no, not SID, no you won't miss out on all the cool bleeding edge AUR packages.

    When you take this path I described you will grow with the system and you will be able to make the decision based on your needs, wants and use cases. Trust me or suffer, I am sorry new guy.

  • If you’re going to use nvidia, don’t even touch wayland. Truly an awful experience.

    Bloat does matter it is extremely important, not because having a bunch of apps slows anything down or has any tangible impact in that regard. Because it isn’t as sexy as somebody’s hyper specific gentoo install compiled without some specific module.

    The reason bloat is such a big deal, particularly if you’re new to it, is because it’s confusing. if you’re trying to fix a problem that you have run into / possibly contributed to, a dozen different programs running in the background that you didn’t put there is going leave you frustrated and disenfranchised.

    Pick a modular distribution like Arch, take the loss that is your weekend putting it together and develop an understanding of how the pieces fit together. If you really don’t have time choose something like eg endeavourOS. ( or even Void is quite nice (but non systemd so less conventional))

    I would personally recommend avoiding something like fedora or Debian. They are both fantastic distributions that work very well. They are not good at teaching new users how to fix problems and that should be your primary goal here.

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