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Ye Power Trippin' Bastards @lemmy.dbzer0.com

8mo ago

Europe@feddit.org supports Zionism

Their Rule 4:

No bigotry, sexism, racism, antisemitism, islamophobia, dehumanization of minorities, or glorification of National Socialism. We follow German law; don’t question the statehood of Israel.

Europe@feddit.org removed my comment for de-tangling the conflation of antisemitism and anti-zionism. A dangerous conflation that is genuinely antisemitic and fuels antisemitic hate as it conflates the actions of Israel and Zionism to all Jewish people and Judaism.

This prioritization of the German definition, the adopted IHRA definition, is promoting antisemtitism and is diametrically opposed to the 'No antisemitism' aspect of the rule. The definition has been condemned by the writer of the definition, a multitude of human rights organizations including Human Rights Watch (HRW), American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), B’Tselem, Peace Now, and Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (PCHR), and over 120 leading scholars of anti-semitism.

240 comments

"Rules are important! I'm a good boy, I follow the rules." -German soldier in the 1940s
- One may well ask: "How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?" The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all."
  Martin Luther King Jr. in Birmingham Jail 1963

For all the people saying it's the instance trying to cover themselves, No. This is a mod account which is not an admin nor appears to be affiliated with the Admins. This is very clearly a person trying to frame criticism of Zionism as antisemitic to attempt to suppress criticism of Israel and their actions. PTB.
- I disagree. I see political comments from two of the mods all the time and they don't take pro Zionist stances. One of the mods regularly bans people from slrpnk.net for being Zionists.
- The mods and the admins are roughly affiliated though. A lot of us community mods are in the same matrix chat groups as the admins.
  Note: I am not a Europe mod. I mod other groups on feddit.org though
- "which does not an admin"
  Words hard, apparently.
  
  The fact that some people are attacking typos and grammar instead of trying to argue with me on my merit means I'm on the right track.

PTB. There is no reason to blindly adopt the IHRA definition.
- The reason to blindly adopt is to ban antifascists from public discourse.
- There is no reason to blindly adopt the IHRA definition
  There's no reason, unless you want your instance to be a safe place for the Jewish people
  
  In what way is conflating zionism and judaism leading to "a safe space for the Jewish people"?
  
  Say what now? Jewish people are perfectly safe. Apologists and supporters of Israel racism and genocide should expect their abhorrent views to be challenged.
  
  There’s no reason, unless you want your instance to be a safe place for ~~the Jewish people~~ Zionists
  Fixed it for you.

I am on feddit.org. I run a ~~subreddit~~ community dedicated to the Middle East /c/nahost@feddit.org and post mostly the Palestinian perspective. I argue for the rights of Palestinians, against Zionism, against the German instrumentalization of the fight against Antisemitism for repression and the like all the time both in /c/europe@feddit.org and other communities.
I never had any problems with the mods or admins and the claim they would be pro-Zionist is absurd.
- That's why I said the problem is the Mods of !europe@feddit.org, or rather an anonymous mod there who is acting out of their own biases for Zionism or against Zionist criticism. It's not some attempt to stay legal in the eyes of the instance admins there or "gERmAn lAw" it's personal and unprofessional mod conduct in the community.

PTB, This reeks of pro-Zionist bias from the mods and blatant attempts to censor criticism of Israel.
Let's remember. Judaism is a religious minority comprising many different people with many different views. Zionism is a political nationalist movement supported by specific people. They are not the same thing. For one, it is not supported by all Jewish people, nor are all of its supporters even Jewish. So if someone tells you that you're being Antisemitic for criticizing Zionism or Israel, tell them to fuck off. It's clear they aren't acting in good faith, just like those dipshits arguing that Greta Thunberg is antisemitic.
- For decades The strongest supporters of Zionism have been American protestants
- The vast majority of Jews are Zionists (i.e. support the existence of Israel. Half of the world‘s Jews live in Israel.
  
  Are you trying to say that anti-Zionism is equivalent to antisemitism? Because that's the only reason I can think of for why you'd try and make such an argument. To try and contrast or disagree with my statement that Zionism and Judaism are in fact different things. I maintain the fact that they are different and that calling out Zionism and Zionist apologia is not only acceptable but should be encouaged. People who call such people "Antisemitic" are Zionist trolls who should not be listened to and instead should be named and shamed, and ultimately banned from common spaces.

They removed a comment of mine today because it denied the statehood of Israel. What a joke.
- I looked it up. IMHO, I don't really think you did in the text.
  What a punch of genocide apologizing, spineless dorks. 🙄
  
  Spineless indeed.
- Well it is one of the rules to not deny Israeli statehood. You shouldn't post somewhere if you aren't going to follow the rules.
  
  The rule itself is a joke. Idgaf, I posted anyway. Fuck Israel.
  
  "I was just following ~~orders~~ rules"
- Well duh. Abolishing Israel would cause the largest genocide in human history. If you support that then getting your comments deleted is the least you deserve.
  
  Abolishing Israel would cause the largest genocide in human history
  you can't prove this
  
  Yeah ok there buddy. Fuck the Zionists. I hope they all get what they deserve. They are committing genocide RIGHT NOW in Gaza.
  Edit: From your comment history, it appears that you too are a Zionist. Fuck off. If there is a god, then he will judge you harshly for your support of the killing of women, children, the elderly, teachers and medics. Not to mention the thousands of starving children. Fuck you and everyone like you 😘

Yeah, I saw some of this nonsense in the modlog. PTB, I don't know what the hell they are thinking.

This seems like PTB for sure. I do not support what Israel is doing and it is without a doubt a genocide. I've had people gaslight me and say I'm antisemitic for believing Palestinians have the right to not be murdered and that Israel as a country probably shouldn't exist. And you know what. Fuck those people. Fuck people who try to accuse others of being Antisemitic because they disagree and want to shut down your criticism. People like this need to be put in their place and confronted, not yielded to.
- that Israel as a country probably shouldn’t exist.
  Ok, then please explain what you think would happen with all the Jewish people that were born and live there in such a case?
  And please be realistic, because everyone lives happily ever after is an extremely unlikely scenario.
  I am not saying that you are antisemitic, but please think these things through before saying stuff that can very well be interpreted as such.
  
  Same as the White South Africans, stay or leave.
  I don't think you've thought this through yourself.

It’s wild that, as Israel’s genocide becomes more publicly exposed and people/countries are distancing from Israel, Germany is doubling down on their relationship with Israel.
Clearly, de-nazification did not work as intended post WW2.
- German people are majority against it/dont care.
  Its the government that does it. Plus isreal always plays the "REMEMBER THE NAZIS! YOU KILLED JEWS SO DO AS YOU'RE TOLD"
  
  It was the same with the Jewish population 80 years ago, where it was mainly just the far right extremists and the government that hated Jews. How’d that work out?
- Old habits die hard for the Germans it seems. The EU deserves so much better from Germany here.
  
  They learned the wrong lessons. They thought the issue was targeting Jews, and not the genocide part. So now they’ve moved to taking Arab lives, which they believe to be less valuable.
- Our government wants to buy Israels Arrow 3 missile defense to protect against Russia since the Ikraine invasion and because US support is shaky. I can imagine that stops any official statements against Israel, that and the wierd feeling of guild the older generations have (even though they were born after WW2).
  Your last line is just moronic though.
  
  Your last line is just moronic though.
  Why?
  
  If Germany stops working with the US and NATO to continually escalate, and stops backing the far-right extremists in Ukraine, they won’t need to buy weapons from Israeli fascists.

feddit.org is crap. when feddit.de died they forgot the benefits of a decentralized network just slapped ALL subs with german language on there.absolute idiots there.

I suspect the last sentence violates German law. Equating Israel with Nazi Germany is illegal under German law as it is considered to downplay the Holocaust because the latter has killed several magnitudes more people than Israel. From a quick search, this has been confirmed at least once by a higher regional court where a cartoonist was fined one monthly income.
Advocating for a secular one-state solution has thus far never been considered illegal by any court. The IHRA definition is not German law and will likely never be.
Since the instance is hosted in Germany, comments must abide by German law even if you disagree with said law. The instance admins are personally liable if they do not remove potentially illegal comments so I don't see why there is an issue.
You can create another Europe community on an instance which isn't hosted in Germany where such comments are legal.
- Equating Israel with Nazi Germany is illegal under German law as it is considered to downplay the Holocaust
  Debatable. The comment doesn't claim that the Shoa and Gaza are comparable. Just that sanctions are justified, just like in
  <insert horriple example>
  .
  Also: apparently, it's hosted in Austria.
  
  The comment doesn't claim that the Shoa and Gaza are comparable
  Warsaw Ghetto uprising and Gaza are clearly comparable - Marek Edelman, one of the leaders of Ghetto uprising drawn parallels between the two. I somehow don't believe Germany would prosecute him.
  
  It is not debatable. Equating Israelis to Nazis and equating genocide in Gaza to the holocaust are definitely illegal in Germany and Austria. You can criticize Israel all you want and be against the settler policies, just don't call them nazis.
  In most court cases it also depends on context too.
  
  You're right, though I don't know whether a court will see it the same. It could maybe be argued there is an implicit connection in the comment.
  Also, Austria has similar enough laws. In mid 2024 someone was sentenced to 7 months on probation for equating zionists with nazis:
  https://salzburg.orf.at/stories/3267915/
- The law is an ass if you can't even make a comment to clarify the difference between anti-zionism and anti-semitism. Why even host it in a country that has such restrictions?
  
  The law is an ass if you can’t even make a comment to clarify the difference between anti-zionism and anti-semitism.
  I would go a step further: The law is an ass if the police are getting themselves involved in any respect in what comments you can and can't make.
  Whether the viewpoint or argument is or isn't reasonable, or where they choose to draw the line about what's a perfectly fair thing to say, just doesn't factor into it.
  Why even host it in a country that has such restrictions?
  Fully agree. If this is anything other than a stupid excuse, they and everyone else should make sure not to host in Germany (if this didn't tip you off already.)
  
  You can make this statement, only the last sentence in the comment in question is at the very best in a legal gray area.
  It is perfectly legal to be opposed to zionism, even in Germany. You may need to adjust your wording, since anti-zionism can and has been considered antisemitic if antisemetic rhetoric is repeated. The statement "All zionists are pigs" would be illegal for example since the Judensau is an antisemitic symbol.
  And the servers are hosted where the administrators live (note: they are hosted in Austria, their laws are nearly identical to Germany though). It wouldn't make much of a difference - German (& Austrian) admins can be prosecuted for any content accessible in Germany (or Austria), regardless of where the content hosted. Besides, it would only take a single court order to identify the admins, see Impressumspflicht.
  
  Because its a German focussed instance????????
  
  Yes you can...

Supposing that the mod is using the "german definition", there is still the issue of hosting an incredibly popular instance. In online places where a huge influx of non-german users live, I'd argue that it should be treated like a public place where free speech is granted. How am i supposed to understand the cultural realities of Germany if I live thousands of miles away from it? Am I supposed to tone down my right to free speech just because they've treated their subjective experience as a universal law?
But I like that on Lemmy, I'm seeing diverse discussion on German/Austrian law. I don't get to see that on other prominent platforms, which tend to favor wikipedia-type discourse that often ends with american pop history/culture inferences.
- What is free speech? There is no globally defined free speech. So it comes to national law of the location where the instance is hosted in.
  
  Moderation rulings are subjective. There are legitimate interests in free speech, even if the idea itself has no distinct and clear impressions. At best, he's only applying an inference. At worst, he's suppressing free speech that he doesn't like hearing.
- Hosting in Germany means complying with German laws. They are enforcing that. Its not up to them but the state.
- The instance has rules and the server is German. Usually when you visit another country, you do your research about the dos and dont so that you don't look like an ass.

Looks more like they're trying to comply with local law.
- Still protected under free speech. Feddit.org probably doesn't get federal grants, which could get denied for "antisemitism".
  
  ~~german~~ austrian acceptable speech law too?

aaaand unfollowed the community europe @ feeditUK here I come!
on that note: Since my account is on the same instance, how do they relate to the community? Like is the reputation of the instance untouched by this or no, if how?
EDIT: DAMN! The uk sub is about the product boycott transition, not about european news.
We need a new instance for that! Guys Europe stands and falls on values. If theres no other eu community or the current one doesnt adapt/make sufficient statements here, that would seriously harm the reputation and take away from one of the biggest current incentives to use lemmy - european exchange
- Question, why is your account on our instance when you don't interact with it to know how this encounter with that communities strict rules relates to the instance as a whole?
  Also a bit of a knee jerk reaction, no?
  
  Enlighten me, what is not a knee jetk reaction to a mod defending a nazi-like regime using anti nazi laws as an excuse?
  
  I asked first

Germany not be a fucking nazi challenge impossible
- They're Nazi by not questioning the statehood of Israel?
  The internet was a mistake
  
  They’re a Nazi by supporting genocide.

YDI.
But let me be clear because some folks seem to not understand this in the past, good. Their rules clearly indicate that you're breaking them, so for that, you 'deserved' the mod action. But this is an action worth deserving. Fuck them. Fuck them right in the ass.

Zionazi jizzrali scum

YDI. Feddit.org is based in Germany and has to adhere to German laws. Some of the stuff you say can land you a fine or in repeat cases even a short jail sentence in Germany.
- Oh, well by all means,...
  Free Palestine. Free Gaza, then.
  
  Yeah I do support Palestinian statehood, but in a two state solution with the 1949 to 1967 border and no Israeli settlements in Palestine.
- Accepting the IHRA definition is not law, it's policy. Die Linke rejects it in favor of the Jerusalem declaration, for instance. Likewise, advocating for a secular one state solution or a two state solution are both perfectly legal. Calling for an end of material support, also legal. The only part that could, by a wide stretch of the imagination, be against German law is listing Nazi Germany in the list of comparisons. But since this is not saying "Israel is exactly like Nazi Germany", even that would be on very shaky grounds.
  Stop pretending this is about German law. This is about political opinions, and these opinions are Zionism
  
  https://www.sueddeutsche.de/bayern/urteil-israel-karikatur-nazivergleich-meinungsfreiheit-1.5683671 It is punishable in Germany.
  
  This is about German law though, whether you like it or not.
- From the River to the Sea, Fuck Germany.

Anyone who is against Israeli statehood, reply to this comment so I can block you. (I am no fan of Netanyahu and am against the war, but it seems most of you dont give a shit about it.)
- Block them, you antisemite:
- oh please block me
- Block me you whiny Zionist troll, you're doing everyone a favor by using the Lemmy backend to disengage because you can't do so yourself. Don't expect the downvotes or callouts to stop though. This isn't Reddit and blocking doesn't prevent people from downvoting or calling out your shitty Zionist takes and making you look like an ass.
  Edit: Lol you got your ass banned. Seems your Zionism finally caught up to you.
- Im all for Israel becoming a city state of Palestine.
  We cool?
  
  Why not two state solution or a binational state like Bosnia-Herzegowina?
- since you asked so nicely, you can add me to the list. I'm not a fan of state in the first place, but I definitely don't think imperialist ethno-states deserve it.
- https://www.btselem.org/publications
  
  Later. I will give it a couple hours for people who arent OP to reply and then you can have a position on the list.
  But yes, I am aware or Betselem and I don't deny the human rights violations of Israel. It just means that it needs a different government and needs to be held accountable for violations. But that doesn't mean there should be no Israeli statehood. It just means Palestine needs to be also recognized as a state.
- With honour.

https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/25859076
Let's-a go!
EDIT:

Why would anyone be enraged by users defending Jews?

American donkeys think their right of free speech applies throughout the world. Pathetic.
- Feddit.org idiot can't distinguish an argument about what the legal limits on free speech are from an argument about what the moral limits of free speech should be. Demented.
  
  Nah, i don't think so.

240 comments